Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard Forum

[kalvano]

People talk about the prestige of Harvard, but my impression is that Columbia with a Hamilton on your resume carries a huge amount of prestige as well. I don't know much about real law schools, though, so maybe someone else can chime in.

Don't go $100,000 in debt for law school. It's soul-crushingly awful to not have options because you have to make X money to pay a loan payment. I believe top law schools like Harvard have generous LRAPs, but you still have to take out a huge amount of money.

[Mullens]

Yes. There should be a consensus for Columbia here. Most people telling you to take the Hamilton are deep into law school or practicing lawyers. Having debt is awful and it has a huge impact on your career choices and options. I took a lower T14 with no debt and I couldn't be happier with my decision.

[QuentonCassidy]

I hate absolutes, but there's no justification for not taking Columbia for free over Harvard for not free.

Well. I think the question becomes more interesting if Harvard is offering significant need-based aid. I could certainly see attending a "not free" (but heavily subsidized) HLS versus a Hamilton at CLS. But a Hamilton vs. HLS at sticker (or close to sticker)? Yeah, that question isn't close.

Anything above 5k/year at H, it's got to be the Hamilton.

Whatever minuscule unicorn opportunities might be lost by going to C are so heavily outweighed by $$$.

**0L DISCLAIMER**
I understand that you are discounting exceptional circumstances, but I just want to add that there may be some reasons to take H over a Hammy (albeit very few reasons). I plan on going to Harvard rather than CLS w/ Hamilton, but I will qualify for very nearly full need-based aid from H. It will still cost more than the 5k/year figure you presented, but it is a very far cry from sticker. Furthermore, I have family that I will be staying with in Boston, so I had to factor in paying next-to-nothing in living expenses to go to HLS or paying NYC living expenses at Columbia, definitely not an insignificant consideration (my fiancee also lives in Boston which is another piece of the puzzle).
I do also have unicorn aspirations, but I am definitely not making the argument that a degree from H will help me in any significant manner over one from C, and what differentiation there may be pales even further in comparison to the degree of luck/connections/hustle required.

I know these factors are pretty far out of left field but I just wanted to say that there aren't NO reasons to take Harvard over a hammy. However,

Is it safe to say that the general consensus is Hamilton over the other big H?

Coming from someone choosing H over hammy, I think there are incredibly few legitimate reasons to do so and it certainly seems like, from what you have posted, your life/career goals will be much better served by CLS w/ hamilton. Congratulations and I definitely would believe in the other, more experienced posters when they say you can't go wrong by taking the Hamilton (but can by choosing Harvard).

ETA:
I also just want to point out from Mullens' post above mine that I have never seen people say they regret choosing the lower-ranking t14 full scholly over taking out debt at a higher-ranking school, but I have seen quite a few people say that they regret doing the opposite.

[Tls2016]

People talk about the prestige of Harvard, but my impression is that Columbia with a Hamilton on your resume carries a huge amount of prestige as well. I don't know much about real law schools, though, so maybe someone else can chime in.

Don't go $100,000 in debt for law school. It's soul-crushingly awful to not have options because you have to make X money to pay a loan payment. I believe top law schools like Harvard have generous LRAPs, but you still have to take out a huge amount of money.

I wish people would think about what they would be able to do with that $100,000 in their pocket/investment/ retirement/ kids education fund instead of paying it back plus interest to a lender. It's even worse when the debt is completely unnecessary as in OPs case

I don't understand how 0Ls refuse to grasp that Columbia is extremely prestigious and well positioned for any job. Even I got reminded by Prof Campos that Columbia is a great option over Yale at sticker even when chasing the academia unicorn.

People in law that will be hiring you know that Columbia is one of a small handful of top schools in the country. You won't have to justify going to Columbia on one of the most prestigious scholarships awarded to law students.

[Tiago Splitter]

**0L DISCLAIMER**
I understand that you are discounting exceptional circumstances, but I just want to add that there may be some reasons to take H over a Hammy (albeit very few reasons). I plan on going to Harvard rather than CLS w/ Hamilton, but I will qualify for very nearly full need-based aid from H. It will still cost more than the 5k/year figure you presented, but it is a very far cry from sticker. Furthermore, I have family that I will be staying with in Boston, so I had to factor in paying next-to-nothing in living expenses to go to HLS or paying NYC living expenses at Columbia, definitely not an insignificant consideration (my fiancee also lives in Boston which is another piece of the puzzle).

With near-max need based aid and far lower living expenses the costs are pretty similar. In your case Harvard is a pretty easy decision.

OP I'm a Columbia grad who almost never recommends Columbia (and not because I didn't enjoy it, just because the cost-benefit almost never makes it the best option). You should definitely go to Columbia.

[jbagelboy]

I hate absolutes, but there's no justification for not taking Columbia for free over Harvard for not free.

Well. I think the question becomes more interesting if Harvard is offering significant need-based aid. I could certainly see attending a "not free" (but heavily subsidized) HLS versus a Hamilton at CLS. But a Hamilton vs. HLS at sticker (or close to sticker)? Yeah, that question isn't close.

Anything above 5k/year at H, it's got to be the Hamilton.

Whatever minuscule unicorn opportunities might be lost by going to C are so heavily outweighed by $$$.

**0L DISCLAIMER**
I understand that you are discounting exceptional circumstances, but I just want to add that there may be some reasons to take H over a Hammy (albeit very few reasons). I plan on going to Harvard rather than CLS w/ Hamilton, but I will qualify for very nearly full need-based aid from H. It will still cost more than the 5k/year figure you presented, but it is a very far cry from sticker. Furthermore, I have family that I will be staying with in Boston, so I had to factor in paying next-to-nothing in living expenses to go to HLS or paying NYC living expenses at Columbia, definitely not an insignificant consideration (my fiancee also lives in Boston which is another piece of the puzzle).
I do also have unicorn aspirations, but I am definitely not making the argument that a degree from H will help me in any significant manner over one from C, and what differentiation there may be pales even further in comparison to the degree of luck/connections/hustle required.

I know these factors are pretty far out of left field but I just wanted to say that there aren't NO reasons to take Harvard over a hammy. However,

Is it safe to say that the general consensus is Hamilton over the other big H?

Coming from someone choosing H over hammy, I think there are incredibly few legitimate reasons to do so and it certainly seems like, from what you have posted, your life/career goals will be much better served by CLS w/ hamilton. Congratulations and I definitely would believe in the other, more experienced posters when they say you can't go wrong by taking the Hamilton (but can by choosing Harvard).

ETA:
I also just want to point out from Mullens' post above mine that I have never seen people say they regret choosing the lower-ranking t14 full scholly over taking out debt at a higher-ranking school, but I have seen quite a few people say that they regret doing the opposite.

As you recognize,
(1) your circumstances are completely different, and far more justifiable
(2) you are not in a position to say what this decision really means for you or to evaluate it objectively with experience in the field

[Nebby]

Can we lock this thread already it happens every year

[kartelite]

I don't understand how anyone can call this a "decision" at all, it's a gimme (I picked CLS over HLS with way less aid, so I may be biased - but something like 1000 people get into HLS every year, many many fewer get the Hamilton).

[eph]

Stop banging away on this tired thread and go watch President Obama nominate yet another Columbia grad to the Supreme Court.

Sorry couldn't resist. Take the Hammy and you will be right 90% of the time.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Stop banging away on this tired thread and go watch President Obama nominate yet another Columbia grad to the Supreme Court.

This is silly.

[eph]

I will make one more observation. The OP says their Harvard education will cost 100k. Most will then say well if you took the money you didn't spend (and avoided the soul crushing debt) and invested it in an index fund or bought a house or some other method that preserves capital you would be so much further ahead. The truth is that most money is spent on things that are fleeting... better clothes, better food, a room with a better view, tourism, or that more expensive car. All of these "betters" are no more real or meaningful than the difference between H and C. It is eye of the beholder stuff. Your education will last a lifetime and H at 100k is not a bad investment. There are more than a few people in every incoming class who quit jobs paying 150k+ to get their H law degrees and would make that decision again in a heartbeat. Do that math. Give up 500k income over 3 years (and the career advancement opportunity) to spend 250k. It is a very personal decision. That said the Hammy and Ruby would be the very hardest to turn down. Best of luck with your decision.

[Elbble]

going to issue an unpopular opinion and throw in a vote for Harvard. One thing people haven't mentioned is that you're very young - that leaves you plenty of time in your mid-late twenties to work crazy biglaw hours and make a big dent in your loans. I'm faced with a similar choice, but I'm almost 30 and therefore too old for that shit - 100k in loans look very different at 33 than at 25.

I'd also assign some weight to the fact that you chose money over name for undergrad -- if the whole H thing is something you've ever wanted, now is not an unreasonable time to go out and get it.

[rpupkin]

I will make one more observation. The OP says their Harvard education will cost 100k.

Actually, that's not what the OP said. The OP said that he or she will only take out $100k in loans to attend HLS, with the rest coming from the OP's savings and parental contributions. So I think the cost of HLS for OP is closer to $200K than $100K. If OP takes the Hamilton over HLS, the OP protects his savings (and, for that that matter, his parents' savings) for other uses.

For what it's worth, I don't think HLS is even worth 100K more than CLS. (I personally would put the line somewhere between the $5K/yr someone mentioned earlier and $100K.) But once you see that the actual cost difference is more like $180K, the decision becomes even more obvious.

[Mullens]

I just want to reiterate that the majority (all?) of the people advocating for HLS here are 0Ls. They haven't gone through legal hiring, watched their loan balance increase, made a loan payment, or seen the "value" of the HLS degree in practice.

Take the Hamilton and don't look back.

[kalvano]

going to issue an unpopular opinion and throw in a vote for Harvard. One thing people haven't mentioned is that you're very young - that leaves you plenty of time in your mid-late twenties to work crazy biglaw hours and make a big dent in your loans. I'm faced with a similar choice, but I'm almost 30 and therefore too old for that shit - 100k in loans look very different at 33 than at 25.

I'd also assign some weight to the fact that you chose money over name for undergrad -- if the whole H thing is something you've ever wanted, now is not an unreasonable time to go out and get it.

If I keep seeing people say that "you've got plenty of time to pay off SIX FIGURES in student loan debt," I'm going to start a thread about all of the things I can do because I am not making that student loan payment anymore, and bump it every time I do something that I am financially able to do because I don't have a student loan payment anymore.

[kaiser]

As someone noted, make sure to account for the "0L Factor" in taking any sort of poll. If you see that the consensus 0L opinion differs from the consensus opinion of practicing attorneys (or even current law students), then you need to take note of that to filter out the noise in the data.

[abl]

1. Very few people care about named scholarships like the Hamilton and those who do don't usually care much. For hiring purposes, it's pretty close to a non-issue, and I wouldn't let it factor into your decision.

2. Think hard about whether you want public interest or politics. Either could be a valid reason to choose H in this situation.

For public interest, if you end up working at a loan repayment-eligible public interest position for ten years, well, you're really talking about Harvard for 0 or Columbia for 0. Harvard will give you a leg up for certain highly desirable public interest positions. If you were pretty sure this is what you wanted to do, I'd probably say H is the right call, although it's a close call. The question is whether the uncertainty of you sticking with public interest or not getting a job times the debt counterbalances the small leg up in hiring H gives you.

For politics, I do get the sense that the Harvard name matters some (even vs YS). And I know the previous poster was joking, but I do think if you're going to be totally cynical and calculating about these things, I also think that being able to show that you're not just totally privileged is helpful for politics (which you will not be able to show if you graduate from undergrad and law school with no debt and >$100k in family money). If you were totally sure about politics, this might be the right (if riskier) path to take.

***

My sense is that you're just vaguely curious about PI or politics. So are most law students. Almost none of them do either, not because PI or politics are impossible or unattractive, but because the biglaw hiring pipeline is hard to avoid and sucks up just about all of the students who are not actively swimming upstream in another direction. If you're not more than vaguely curious about these things, you should probably go to Columbia. It's not worth taking on debt (and spending your savings) for a slight improvement of chances for options you're only somewhat considering that, as a practical matter, you're unlikely to pursue. If after some introspection you decide you actually passionately do want to pursue one of these options 100% from day one, and are going to be one of the students at H or C swimming upstream, this becomes a closer question.

<--I'm a practicing attorney.

[Indifference]

Take the Hamilton...

[Elbble]

1. Very few people care about named scholarships like the Hamilton and those who do don't usually care much. For hiring purposes, it's pretty close to a non-issue, and I wouldn't let it factor into your decision.

Would you mind elaborating a little more on this? I hear different opinions on this all the time: some say a Hamilton on a resume is as valuable as a HYS, others say it's nbd.

[rpupkin]

1. Very few people care about named scholarships like the Hamilton and those who do don't usually care much. For hiring purposes, it's pretty close to a non-issue, and I wouldn't let it factor into your decision.

Would you mind elaborating a little more on this? I hear different opinions on this all the time: some say a Hamilton on a resume is as valuable as a HYS, others say it's nbd.

Although I largely disagree with the rest of abl's advice, I agree with point 1. Perhaps named scholarships help with 1L summer jobs (which aren't hard to get and aren't terribly important in the scheme of things anyway), but once you have a couple of semesters of law school grades under your belt, the signaling value of named scholarships like the Hamilton basically disappears.

[WheninLaw]

1. Very few people care about named scholarships like the Hamilton and those who do don't usually care much. For hiring purposes, it's pretty close to a non-issue, and I wouldn't let it factor into your decision.

Would you mind elaborating a little more on this? I hear different opinions on this all the time: some say a Hamilton on a resume is as valuable as a HYS, others say it's nbd.

Abl's opinions are often insane (see his above post), but he's right about this. Named scholarships like the Ruby or Hamilton don't factor too much into legal hiring. Maybe it impresses an alum or catches a judge's eye, but in the end, school/grades matter much more.

At the same time, the difference between Harvard and Columbia is also fairly negligible as most hiring goes. Seriously.

[rpupkin]

1. Very few people care about named scholarships like the Hamilton and those who do don't usually care much. For hiring purposes, it's pretty close to a non-issue, and I wouldn't let it factor into your decision.

Would you mind elaborating a little more on this? I hear different opinions on this all the time: some say a Hamilton on a resume is as valuable as a HYS, others say it's nbd.

Abl's opinions are often insane (see his above post), but he's right about this. Named scholarships like the Ruby or Hamilton don't factor too much into legal hiring. Maybe it impresses an alum or catches a judge's eye, but in the end, school/grades matter much more.

At the same time, the difference between Harvard and Columbia is also fairly negligible as most hiring goes. Seriously.

I think that's true for big law, but less true for clerkships, certain boutiques, and federal government hiring. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the benefit of HLS over CLS is worth $180K or $100K, but I do think it's worth a bit more than some ITT are suggesting.

[abl]

1. Very few people care about named scholarships like the Hamilton and those who do don't usually care much. For hiring purposes, it's pretty close to a non-issue, and I wouldn't let it factor into your decision.

Would you mind elaborating a little more on this? I hear different opinions on this all the time: some say a Hamilton on a resume is as valuable as a HYS, others say it's nbd.

Abl's opinions are often insane (see his above post), but he's right about this. Named scholarships like the Ruby or Hamilton don't factor too much into legal hiring. Maybe it impresses an alum or catches a judge's eye, but in the end, school/grades matter much more.

At the same time, the difference between Harvard and Columbia is also fairly negligible as most hiring goes. Seriously.

Thanks, I guess. How, though, is the rest of my post "insane?" It strikes me as insane to not recognize that (1) debt means different things to different people, (2) different people have different career goals and preferences, and (3) H and C do not have identical impacts on all possible career goals and preferences. I don't see how any of those three points is at all controversial. And if you accept them, pretty much everything else that I say follows.

[abl]

1. Very few people care about named scholarships like the Hamilton and those who do don't usually care much. For hiring purposes, it's pretty close to a non-issue, and I wouldn't let it factor into your decision.

Would you mind elaborating a little more on this? I hear different opinions on this all the time: some say a Hamilton on a resume is as valuable as a HYS, others say it's nbd.

Although I largely disagree with the rest of abl's advice, I agree with point 1. Perhaps named scholarships help with 1L summer jobs (which aren't hard to get and aren't terribly important in the scheme of things anyway), but once you have a couple of semesters of law school grades under your belt, the signaling value of named scholarships like the Hamilton basically disappears.

My advice is that the OP should probably take C. Isn't that normally the camp in which you fall? What is it that you disagree with?

[Elbble]

1. Very few people care about named scholarships like the Hamilton and those who do don't usually care much. For hiring purposes, it's pretty close to a non-issue, and I wouldn't let it factor into your decision.

Would you mind elaborating a little more on this? I hear different opinions on this all the time: some say a Hamilton on a resume is as valuable as a HYS, others say it's nbd.

Abl's opinions are often insane (see his above post), but he's right about this. Named scholarships like the Ruby or Hamilton don't factor too much into legal hiring. Maybe it impresses an alum or catches a judge's eye, but in the end, school/grades matter much more.

At the same time, the difference between Harvard and Columbia is also fairly negligible as most hiring goes. Seriously.

I think that's true for big law, but less true for clerkships, certain boutiques, and federal government hiring. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the benefit of HLS over CLS is worth $180K or $100K, but I do think it's worth a bit more than some ITT are suggesting.

Huh, ok, good to know. I wonder why that is -- you'd think there's an argument to be made for the Hamilton/Ruby being regarded as *more* prestigious than HYS, given how many fewer of them there are, but I guess it doesn't necessarily play out that way.