Kansas vs. Washburn Forum

[BigZuck]

Yeah you really need to figure out how much debt you will be in. Consider tuition, cost of living, loan origination fees, accumulated interest, etc.

Id be twice as much in debt at KU than I would be at Washburn, but people outside of Kansas and Missouri have never heard of Washburn. Is this problematic? Should I go to the third tier school and accrue 2x more debt or go to the super small local school? My job prospects are about the same. The president of the firm I work at has a Washburn degree. The kc metro area is saturated with Kansas, UMKC, MU and Washburn degrees. Am I missing anything by skipping out on the pricier school?

First, why are you talking about recognition out of state? KU is not recognized out of state either, and based on their employment numbers, seems to be barely recognized in its own state of Kansas.

Second, for every president of a firm who attended Washburn, there are 100s of Washburn grads buried in debt and doing solo practice or unemployed. It is not wise to factor in individual successes of particular law school graduates into your decision making.

Lastly, and I am surprised that no other TLSers are backing me up on this point, but KU essentially closes you off from getting a big law job. You mention that you want big law and are content with working at "one of the biggest firms in KC." For the last time, please don't go to KU with this expectation.

I think we're all so caught up on the cost that we haven't got to the job prospects yet. But we'll get there eventually I'm sure

[tiger2014]

Having worked at one of the biggest law firms in KC as a 1L last summer, most of my peers were from KU, UMKC, or Mizzou (I do not attend any of these schools). There was no one from Washburn in my class. We played softball with the other big firms, and mostly every person from those firms were from KU, UMKC, and Mizzou. I can remember one 2L from Washburn.

I really think that KU gives you a WAY bigger shot at big law, but it is still VERY hard to get a big law job from either school. My best friend is in the top of her class at KU and kicking ass (big law job, Circuit Court of Appeals clerkship) , but there are only a few of her peers who also have big law jobs (I think it's something like 8%). If you are at the top of your class, you are as competitive as anyone at any T14 school, but if you aren't, you better resign yourself to whatever job you can find.

[BigZuck]

Are the big law jobs that 8% of KU students are getting in Kansas City? Or are they in, like, Chicago or something?

Big law exists in Kansas?

[fliptrip]

Yeah you really need to figure out how much debt you will be in. Consider tuition, cost of living, loan origination fees, accumulated interest, etc.

Id be twice as much in debt at KU than I would be at Washburn, but people outside of Kansas and Missouri have never heard of Washburn. Is this problematic? Should I go to the third tier school and accrue 2x more debt or go to the super small local school? My job prospects are about the same. The president of the firm I work at has a Washburn degree. The kc metro area is saturated with Kansas, UMKC, MU and Washburn degrees. Am I missing anything by skipping out on the pricier school?

Alright, I'll try to help put what you're saying into terms that will be more useful for understanding. Here's your cost of attendance at both of these schools:

KU- $112,507
WU-$97,007 ***this COA comes with a 3.0 GPA stipulation, which is horrible, and if you lose your scholarship, your COA balloons to $122,430.

Remember, your chance of getting any job whatsoever as a lawyer is 66% at best from either of these schools, so at these prices, both are too expensive and the answer to the question of KU or Washburn is choice c) neither and retake the LSAT.

[A. Nony Mouse]

But if you can get the price of Kansas down I think it sounds like the better option for your goals.

[fliptrip]

But if you can get the price of Kansas down I think it sounds like the better option for your goals.

+1. Absolutely. But, OP, if you're from KCMO, wouldn't UMKC be the best choice? You could live at home and really push your COA down to as close to $0 (excluding your opportunity costs). UMKC has only marginally worse employment numbers than KU. Why isn't UMKC on your list?

[A@M_or_bust]

I really think that KU gives you a WAY bigger shot at big law

This is mere conjecture. Why aren't people just looking at ABA employment data?? Over the past 4 years, KU has only placed between 4.7% and 8.6% of their graduating class in big law. Is this really WAY more of a shot at big law than the 2.6% to 3.7% at Washburn?

[wolfie_m.]

.

[GreenJay]

I'm baffled at OP's stubbornness re: her school choice. KC firms are more than willing to hire students with ties from my T20. I'd have to imagine they'd be delighted to hire someone with ties from a T14. What gives, OP?

This is absolutely not true.

[wolfie_m.]

.

[fliptrip]

I'm baffled at OP's stubbornness re: her school choice. KC firms are more than willing to hire students with ties from my T20. I'd have to imagine they'd be delighted to hire someone with ties from a T14. What gives, OP?

Uh, don't really think the t-14 is in play here...we have an OP paying serious money to go to KU. We don't know her stats, but we know if they were T-14 worthy, she'd have much better deals from those schools.

I don't really know to what extent there is even a real biglaw market in KC, but I'd imagine it's really small. I have zero idea how much going to your run of the mill T-14 would help. Now, if you have HYS, that might change things a little bit, but I wouldn't be going to Berkeley, for instance thinking I'm getting back to KC.

[tiger2014]

I echo GreenJay. Partners at my firm in KC said they are afraid of non-local school people leaving. At my T20, there are two outstanding candidates (one going to Milbank in NY and one to Skadden in NY) who both have extensive ties to KC/KS who didn't get any screeners at any of the firms in KC.

Also yes, I do think that 8.6% to big law versus 3.7% is a way bigger shot. It's 8 extra people per class getting a big law job. And there most certainly is big law in KC (Polsinelli, Shook Hardy and Bacon, Bryan Cave, Stinson, Spencer Fane, Lathrop...)

[GreenJay]

I'm baffled at OP's stubbornness re: her school choice. KC firms are more than willing to hire students with ties from my T20. I'd have to imagine they'd be delighted to hire someone with ties from a T14. What gives, OP?

Uh, don't really think the t-14 is in play here...we have an OP paying serious money to go to KU. We don't know her stats, but we know if they were T-14 worthy, she'd have much better deals from those schools.

I don't really know to what extent there is even a real biglaw market in KC, but I'd imagine it's really small. I have zero idea how much going to your run of the mill T-14 would help. Now, if you have HYS, that might change things a little bit, but I wouldn't be going to Berkeley, for instance thinking I'm getting back to KC.

This is the credited response. She is paying too much money to go to KU but if she is interested in KU for a much better bargain it would make sense. Kansas City has a surprisingly large big law market (I'd venture to say larger than St. Louis), so it is not as if KC big law is a unicorn. However, UMKC I think is generally a much poorer choice as between it an Washburn.

OP please do not pay 100k to go to KU!

[GreenJay]

This is absolutely not true.

Feel free to explain what I'm missing, because KC firms did in fact hire people from my T20. (Edit: or do hire.)

Do you go to WUSTL because that may be the outlier. I couldn't get any screeners at Kansas City firms but had callbacks at several V5 and firms like Williams and Connolly. I have extremely extensive ties to Kansas City but flight is an extremely real concern amongst KC firms.

[WinterComing]

Are the big law jobs that 8% of KU students are getting in Kansas City? Or are they in, like, Chicago or something?

Big law exists in Kansas?

The part of Kansas City with Big Law is mostly in Missouri, but yes, it exists. When you adjust for COL, Missouri firms paying 120k are a better deal than New York firms paying 160k.

I really think that KU gives you a WAY bigger shot at big law

This is mere conjecture. Why aren't people just looking at ABA employment data?? Over the past 4 years, KU has only placed between 4.7% and 8.6% of their graduating class in big law. Is this really WAY more of a shot at big law than the 2.6% to 3.7% at Washburn?

I'm not a math major, but 8.6 percent seems like more than double 3.7 percent. Jokes aside, they're both super small chances that don't justify spending 100k. Seems like we all basically agree on that, while squabbling over minor details related to ignorance of the KC market.

[A@M_or_bust]

Are the big law jobs that 8% of KU students are getting in Kansas City? Or are they in, like, Chicago or something?

Big law exists in Kansas?

The part of Kansas City with Big Law is mostly in Missouri, but yes, it exists. When you adjust for COL, Missouri firms paying 120k are a better deal than New York firms paying 160k.

I really think that KU gives you a WAY bigger shot at big law

This is mere conjecture. Why aren't people just looking at ABA employment data?? Over the past 4 years, KU has only placed between 4.7% and 8.6% of their graduating class in big law. Is this really WAY more of a shot at big law than the 2.6% to 3.7% at Washburn?

I'm not a math major, but 8.6 percent seems like more than double 3.7 percent.

Lol you could say more than double or 4/110 vs 9/110 for a whopping 4.9% increase in chances. But yes, my underlying point has been the same: neither school offers anything close to a realistic shot at big law. So saying that one gives you a WAY better shot than the other is egregiously misleading.

[stego]

I echo GreenJay. Partners at my firm in KC said they are afraid of non-local school people leaving. At my T20, there are two outstanding candidates (one going to Milbank in NY and one to Skadden in NY) who both have extensive ties to KC/KS who didn't get any screeners at any of the firms in KC.

Also yes, I do think that 8.6% to big law versus 3.7% is a way bigger shot. It's 8 extra people per class getting a big law job. And there most certainly is big law in KC (Polsinelli, Shook Hardy and Bacon, Bryan Cave, Stinson, Spencer Fane, Lathrop...)

Why are they so concerned about people who are from Kansas City leaving, just because they went to school somewhere else?

[Tls2016]

I echo GreenJay. Partners at my firm in KC said they are afraid of non-local school people leaving. At my T20, there are two outstanding candidates (one going to Milbank in NY and one to Skadden in NY) who both have extensive ties to KC/KS who didn't get any screeners at any of the firms in KC.

Also yes, I do think that 8.6% to big law versus 3.7% is a way bigger shot. It's 8 extra people per class getting a big law job. And there most certainly is big law in KC (Polsinelli, Shook Hardy and Bacon, Bryan Cave, Stinson, Spencer Fane, Lathrop...)

Why are they so concerned about people who are from Kansas City leaving, just because they went to school somewhere else?

Because of history probably and being burned by people who decide they want a bigger city life.

[GreenJay]

I echo GreenJay. Partners at my firm in KC said they are afraid of non-local school people leaving. At my T20, there are two outstanding candidates (one going to Milbank in NY and one to Skadden in NY) who both have extensive ties to KC/KS who didn't get any screeners at any of the firms in KC.

Also yes, I do think that 8.6% to big law versus 3.7% is a way bigger shot. It's 8 extra people per class getting a big law job. And there most certainly is big law in KC (Polsinelli, Shook Hardy and Bacon, Bryan Cave, Stinson, Spencer Fane, Lathrop...)

Why are they so concerned about people who are from Kansas City leaving, just because they went to school somewhere else?

Because of history probably and being burned by people who decide they want a bigger city life.

This is exactly right.

[stego]

I echo GreenJay. Partners at my firm in KC said they are afraid of non-local school people leaving. At my T20, there are two outstanding candidates (one going to Milbank in NY and one to Skadden in NY) who both have extensive ties to KC/KS who didn't get any screeners at any of the firms in KC.

Also yes, I do think that 8.6% to big law versus 3.7% is a way bigger shot. It's 8 extra people per class getting a big law job. And there most certainly is big law in KC (Polsinelli, Shook Hardy and Bacon, Bryan Cave, Stinson, Spencer Fane, Lathrop...)

Why are they so concerned about people who are from Kansas City leaving, just because they went to school somewhere else?

Because of history probably and being burned by people who decide they want a bigger city life.

This is exactly right.

I guess I'm just surprised that people who are from Kansas City and chose to go back wouldn't choose to stay.

[Tls2016]

I echo GreenJay. Partners at my firm in KC said they are afraid of non-local school people leaving. At my T20, there are two outstanding candidates (one going to Milbank in NY and one to Skadden in NY) who both have extensive ties to KC/KS who didn't get any screeners at any of the firms in KC.

Also yes, I do think that 8.6% to big law versus 3.7% is a way bigger shot. It's 8 extra people per class getting a big law job. And there most certainly is big law in KC (Polsinelli, Shook Hardy and Bacon, Bryan Cave, Stinson, Spencer Fane, Lathrop...)

Why are they so concerned about people who are from Kansas City leaving, just because they went to school somewhere else?

Because of history probably and being burned by people who decide they want a bigger city life.

This is exactly right.

I guess I'm just surprised that people who are from Kansas City and chose to go back wouldn't choose to stay.

People say they want to go back but decide to take the big city offer to get experience or more options or whatever. I'm sure it happens in many smaller secondary markets.

[admittedlawgirl16]

I echo GreenJay. Partners at my firm in KC said they are afraid of non-local school people leaving. At my T20, there are two outstanding candidates (one going to Milbank in NY and one to Skadden in NY) who both have extensive ties to KC/KS who didn't get any screeners at any of the firms in KC.

Also yes, I do think that 8.6% to big law versus 3.7% is a way bigger shot. It's 8 extra people per class getting a big law job. And there most certainly is big law in KC (Polsinelli, Shook Hardy and Bacon, Bryan Cave, Stinson, Spencer Fane, Lathrop...)

Thank you for the insight! I guess I should amend that my top aspirations are to practice kc big law (BC, Shook, Polsinelli, Stinson, etc.) which is largely different than nyc biglaw.

I have an interview at UMKC, but hustorically, they don't give out much money according to recent admits with great stats so I don't anticipate much of a a scholarship from the school and their tuition for MO residents is 18,466.

I probably should extend the request for advice to area natives and grads of area schools.

If I were paying double including COA at KU, would my success in finding jobs in KC be largely different than Washburn (thus making the expenditure worth it.)

Your post and GreenJays post say "do not spend 100k at KU." If I were to spend half at Washburn, would I come out with about the same prospect at jobs in he area or does KU hold a bit of a higher regard? (in the KC area)

Thanks for all your input! I was assuming I should go to school with the better value, but I wanted to make sure I am not going to fare worse in the future if kc firms typically don't care for Washburn grads and would prefer KU grads over Washburn grads.

[admittedlawgirl16]

I'm baffled at OP's stubbornness re: her school choice. KC firms are more than willing to hire students with ties from my T20. I'd have to imagine they'd be delighted to hire someone with ties from a T14. What gives, OP?

Uh, don't really think the t-14 is in play here...we have an OP paying serious money to go to KU. We don't know her stats, but we know if they were T-14 worthy, she'd have much better deals from those schools.

I don't really know to what extent there is even a real biglaw market in KC, but I'd imagine it's really small. I have zero idea how much going to your run of the mill T-14 would help. Now, if you have HYS, that might change things a little bit, but I wouldn't be going to Berkeley, for instance thinking I'm getting back to KC.

This is the credited response. She is paying too much money to go to KU but if she is interested in KU for a much better bargain it would make sense. Kansas City has a surprisingly large big law market (I'd venture to say larger than St. Louis), so it is not as if KC big law is a unicorn. However, UMKC I think is generally a much poorer choice as between it an Washburn.

OP please do not pay 100k to go to KU!

Thank you! KU does not negotiate scholarships, but I'm applying for a 9k one this week and I understand that some 2Ls (in my position: low incoming GPA, decent LSAT score) receive better aid because they perform better in law school than they did in UG (i worked 2 jobs and was a student athlete. I was also otherwise distracted as well. I just didn't do well until my final year and a half.)

If I could get a lower tuition at KU, would that be the better option than Washburn? I understand the two vary little in terms of bar passage, employment, etc. with KU tending to have the slightly higher numbers, but does a KU degree have more edge (in your anecdotal experience) or should I stick with the better value? At this point right now, I would pay half at Washburn.

[admittedlawgirl16]

Having worked at one of the biggest law firms in KC as a 1L last summer, most of my peers were from KU, UMKC, or Mizzou (I do not attend any of these schools). There was no one from Washburn in my class. We played softball with the other big firms, and mostly every person from those firms were from KU, UMKC, and Mizzou. I can remember one 2L from Washburn.

I really think that KU gives you a WAY bigger shot at big law, but it is still VERY hard to get a big law job from either school. My best friend is in the top of her class at KU and kicking ass (big law job, Circuit Court of Appeals clerkship) , but there are only a few of her peers who also have big law jobs (I think it's something like 8%). If you are at the top of your class, you are as competitive as anyone at any T14 school, but if you aren't, you better resign yourself to whatever job you can find.

Thank you!! There just aren't many Washburn students who make it to kc big law it seems? So do you believe it would behoove me to pay 2x the amount I would pay at Washburn to go to a school where I would have better networking opportunities?

Thanks!

Not sure if it's worth mentioning, but I attended ASW at Washburn, there were only 30 of us or so, and out of the 4 people I mingled with, 3 of them wanted to stay in Topeka because of their ties to the area (odd- I know.)

[fliptrip]

If I could get a lower tuition at KU, would that be the better option than Washburn? I understand the two vary little in terms of bar passage, employment, etc. with KU tending to have the slightly higher numbers, but does a KU degree have more edge (in your anecdotal experience) or should I stick with the better value? At this point right now, I would pay half at Washburn.

Alright we're making some progress. First, make sure you've eliminated BigLaw from your list of goals for now. If you are in the top 5% of your class after 1L, that thinking could reenter your equation, but even then doing it in KC would be a shot in the dark. Now, onto the most important advice: You should not go to either school until your total cost of attendance that you'll be debt financing gets to be at least below $50,000. Ideally you wouldn't have to borrow at all to go to KU, but if you do, you only want to be saddled with a debt load that you can handle on the type of salary you can expect from there.

To get to this point, you're likely going to have to sit this cycle out and retake the LSAT. KU will more than likely pay for a high LSAT, and their LSAT 75th percentile is 159, so "high" in their context isn't really high at all. Despite what some have written here, KU does not "suck". I'd argue that a state flagship law school in pretty much any state is not going to suck...they aren't actively trying to trick you or screw you with incredibly high tuition and horrific scholarship stipulations which probably lead to section stacking. Yes, their employment numbers are not good, but I don't think that's a function of the school itself. I think there are just way too many law schools serving the KC area. If you got rid of UMKC and Washburn, I am confident that Mizzou and KU would more effectively service the KC market. There are 4 law schools within 125 miles of KC! That's crazy. Denver, which has 20% more people only has 2 law schools within a 500 mile radius.