Michigan v UCLA Forum

[zot1]

No need to get so dramatic, y'all.

Dude says he wants government work. It is cozy and can't certainly be done for ten years and likely more.

The problem really is getting the job. But even then, people still survive.

If this is really what OP wants to do, then really it's all about helping him between UCLA and Mich.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Yeah, just to echo some of the sheer panic others are expressing on your behalf regarding COA, you need to make sure you understand exactly what LRAP is and what it is not.

LRAP generally—and perhaps this varies somewhat by school, as I gather there are differences—makes your loan payments for you, provided you (1) earn below a certain threshold (some schools have hard income cutoffs, others are staggered and give partial loan payments if you earn above the minimum but below the maximum), and (2) you have a qualifying PI job (3) for the requisite number of years.

This sounds straightforward and wonderful on its face, but remember, if for some reason you can't land a qualifying PI job, you'll be making those payments on your own, even if you're unemployed. This is why the total amount of debt still matters. There are horror stories about kids who get a PI gig only to get laid off after a few years. If you can't land another qualifying gig within the grace period (varies by school, I gather), you may lose the ability to qualify for LRAP or loan forgiveness (PSLF) at all. In the worst possible scenario, if you're unable to stay at that qualifying job for the required amount of time (I believe) you can wind up on the hook for the payments the school already made (though again, this depends on your school's LRAP), and they'll actually make you pay them back for the full cost of the payments made on your behalf. Jobless + drowning in non-dischargeable debt = not where you want to be.

All this is a long way of saying: think long and hard before you commit to a mountain of debt. Hopefully you'll have a better outcome than what I described above, but if the economy takes a shit it won't be in your control anyway.

Agreed. No debt is better than relying on LRAP. I will say that the good thing about Michigan's LRAP is that you don't need a non profit job. Any JD required job (including small firms, private sector, etc.) counts for LRAP. I found this in another thread on Michigan's LRAP:

https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... yment.aspx

So the program is not limited to public interest jobs?
No, we do not require that employment be in public interest or public service. We really want our graduates to do the legal work they want to do, whether that is for a public interest organization, the government, or a small law firm in a sparsely populated area. The breadth of our program distinguishes it from most other similar programs.

[bowser]

UCLA is great for government work (including fed govt work, to the degree it exists) in Southern Cal. Michigan is much, much better for govt work/PI nationally.

[RZ5646]

Yeah, just to echo some of the sheer panic others are expressing on your behalf regarding COA, you need to make sure you understand exactly what LRAP is and what it is not.

LRAP generally—and perhaps this varies somewhat by school, as I gather there are differences—makes your loan payments for you, provided you (1) earn below a certain threshold (some schools have hard income cutoffs, others are staggered and give partial loan payments if you earn above the minimum but below the maximum), and (2) you have a qualifying PI job (3) for the requisite number of years.

This sounds straightforward and wonderful on its face, but remember, if for some reason you can't land a qualifying PI job, you'll be making those payments on your own, even if you're unemployed. This is why the total amount of debt still matters. There are horror stories about kids who get a PI gig only to get laid off after a few years. If you can't land another qualifying gig within the grace period (varies by school, I gather), you may lose the ability to qualify for LRAP or loan forgiveness (PSLF) at all. In the worst possible scenario, if you're unable to stay at that qualifying job for the required amount of time (I believe) you can wind up on the hook for the payments the school already made (though again, this depends on your school's LRAP), and they'll actually make you pay them back for the full cost of the payments made on your behalf. Jobless + drowning in non-dischargeable debt = not where you want to be.

All this is a long way of saying: think long and hard before you commit to a mountain of debt. Hopefully you'll have a better outcome than what I described above, but if the economy takes a shit it won't be in your control anyway.

Agreed. No debt is better than relying on LRAP. I will say that the good thing about Michigan's LRAP is that you don't need a non profit job. Any JD required job (including small firms, private sector, etc.) counts for LRAP. I found this in another thread on Michigan's LRAP:

https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... yment.aspx

So the program is not limited to public interest jobs?
No, we do not require that employment be in public interest or public service. We really want our graduates to do the legal work they want to do, whether that is for a public interest organization, the government, or a small law firm in a sparsely populated area. The breadth of our program distinguishes it from most other similar programs.

So wait, UMich's LRAP covers any lawyer below a certain income level? That sounds too good to be true...

[pmc13b]

I'm blown away by the amount of responses I've revived. Thank you guys for all your insights.

My goals are not vague, I told you what I would like to do. I am certainly keeping an open mind, but I have a clear path in mind.

I don't feel comfortable posting my budget. Maybe that's a fault of mine, I don't know, but I just don't want to post it. I've told you all that it's close enough to not be a deciding factor. I think the fact that I have been admitted to these schools demonstrates that I have a pretty good head on my shoulders, so trust me when I say I know what I am getting into. I appreciate you all trying to keep my honest, but, again, I know what I am getting into.

I would like you all to simply take a look at the factors that I am considering, and make a recommendation based off of that, rather than bringing your own preconceived notions to the table. For those of you did, thank you, I appreciate it. This is without a doubt the hardest choice I am going to have to make in my life (to this point).

[fliptrip]

My goals are not vague, I told you what I would like to do. I am certainly keeping an open mind, but I have a clear path in mind.

I don't feel comfortable posting my budget. Maybe that's a fault of mine, I don't know, but I just don't want to post it. I've told you all that it's close enough to not be a deciding factor. I think the fact that I have been admitted to these schools demonstrates that I have a pretty good head on my shoulders, so trust me when I say I know what I am getting into. I appreciate you all trying to keep my honest, but, again, I know what I am getting into.

I would like you all to simply take a look at the factors that I am considering, and make a recommendation based off of that, rather than bringing your own preconceived notions to the table. For those of you did, thank you, I appreciate it. This is without a doubt the hardest choice I am going to have to make in my life (to this point).

First, OP, Garbage in = Garbage out. If you don't give folks all the information they need, they will NOT be able to give you good advice to help you make a good choice with this "hardest choice of your life".

I cannot imagine why you don't want to post your budget. Knowing the amount of money you'd be in hock in order to go to school allows us trying to advise you to properly incorporate your risk into this equation. You perceive that this is a tough decision and I suspect it's because you know that this is serious business. But, I think anyone here would readily admit that anything they are advising you to do could change significantly upon learning your actual cost of attendance figures.

Your cost of attendance is not a state secret and besides this is a random forum, so I don't understand the cost to you.

[Tls2016]

Yeah, just to echo some of the sheer panic others are expressing on your behalf regarding COA, you need to make sure you understand exactly what LRAP is and what it is not.

LRAP generally—and perhaps this varies somewhat by school, as I gather there are differences—makes your loan payments for you, provided you (1) earn below a certain threshold (some schools have hard income cutoffs, others are staggered and give partial loan payments if you earn above the minimum but below the maximum), and (2) you have a qualifying PI job (3) for the requisite number of years.

This sounds straightforward and wonderful on its face, but remember, if for some reason you can't land a qualifying PI job, you'll be making those payments on your own, even if you're unemployed. This is why the total amount of debt still matters. There are horror stories about kids who get a PI gig only to get laid off after a few years. If you can't land another qualifying gig within the grace period (varies by school, I gather), you may lose the ability to qualify for LRAP or loan forgiveness (PSLF) at all. In the worst possible scenario, if you're unable to stay at that qualifying job for the required amount of time (I believe) you can wind up on the hook for the payments the school already made (though again, this depends on your school's LRAP), and they'll actually make you pay them back for the full cost of the payments made on your behalf. Jobless + drowning in non-dischargeable debt = not where you want to be.

All this is a long way of saying: think long and hard before you commit to a mountain of debt. Hopefully you'll have a better outcome than what I described above, but if the economy takes a shit it won't be in your control anyway.

Agreed. No debt is better than relying on LRAP. I will say that the good thing about Michigan's LRAP is that you don't need a non profit job. Any JD required job (including small firms, private sector, etc.) counts for LRAP. I found this in another thread on Michigan's LRAP:

https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... yment.aspx

So the program is not limited to public interest jobs?
No, we do not require that employment be in public interest or public service. We really want our graduates to do the legal work they want to do, whether that is for a public interest organization, the government, or a small law firm in a sparsely populated area. The breadth of our program distinguishes it from most other similar programs.

If you don't have a PSLF job, after 10 years to are still going to have a huge loan balance and you are out of Michigans program. It is 10 years for all jobs, in assuming that is because it is designed for PSLF people primarily whose loans are forgiven after 120 on time qualifying payments.

Be careful about this. In the same thread someone was told that$60,000 of debt wouldn't be enough to qualify at Michigan.

Edit: I think that is because the assumption is that their 10 yearIBR payment wouldn't be less than the 10 year standard repayment.

Don't go to any school relying on their LRAP without a detailed conversation with the financial aid office or whoever is in charge. The plans are complicated, you can't just sign up but have to be approved, the amounts covered vary and often top out at a certain cutoff of income. Some schools allow you to go in and out and others require you have the job at graduation.

It's incredibly detailed and idiosyncratic to each school.
Note: as far as I know, none of them help if you are unemployed or part time or not in a JD required job.(possibly Yale does help if not a JD required job.)

[globetrotter659]

LRAP is incredibly confusing. First, your eligibility will depend on your loan burden and your income. If you end up in Fed Gov with moderate loans, you might not be eligible for IBR which could be needed for the school's LRAP. Some schools will also accept PAYE. Second, if you end up in Fed Gov you might lose your eligibility within a few years because your income will quickly rise above the LRAP income cap.

School's love to talk about their LRAP and how they'll repay all your loans if you are making less than X amount. But there's always fine print. Make sure you read the fine print.

[Kinky John]

top-law-schools.com