Hamilton vs YLS + lots of complications Forum

[Aeon]

Consider also that with a possible strenuous commute to Yale, along with the responsibility of having a baby and strain on your marriage from your frequent absences, there is a real chance that your grades (i.e.: Honors, Pass, Low Pass) at Yale will suffer. It would be far better for your prospects to have good grades at CLS than mediocre marks at Yale.

Given your situation (full-tuition scholarship, spouse and baby in NYC, already have a Ph.D.), I'd lean toward Columbia.

[Tls2016]

If I ever heard a Columbia law grad say, "If only I had gone to Yale my life would be so much better" then I would know I'm dealing with an intelligent foo! Schools can get you in the door but your work product is what gets you noticed. Just being a Yale grad doesn't guarantee anyone scotus clerkships or potus potential, it means you have the best platform to start you career. The OP will be fine going to Columbia and won't miss anything by doing so.

Do you know a lot of people chasing academia? Law school hiring is way, way down and the competition is extreme. People move around the country for one or two year fellowships with no promise of permanent employment. It's hard to over estimate how challenging that path will be.

If that is OPs goal, then Yale is by far the best option.

[Lincoln]

To clarify, I think there are situations where taking YLS over a hamilton is totally justified. I just don't think it is here at all with your background and very specific personal circumstances and limitations.

+1

[TatteredDignity]

2. My one (lame, but it's how it is) skill in life is being a 4.0/180 kind of super student. I know a lot of people pick HYS as a hedge against mediocre performance at CCN, but that's not a real risk in my case.

Sort of surprised everyone is letting this fly.

[Tls2016]

Just because OP has a family now instead of 5 years from now doesn't clinch Columbia. Read the OP.
OP is an academic and he is looking at a difficult career path. Yale will helph him.

He's probably going to PSLF debt anyway.

[Aeon]

Just because OP has a family now instead of 5 years from now doesn't clinch Columbia. Read the OP.
OP is an academic and he is looking at a difficult career path. Yale will helph him.

He's probably going to PSLF debt anyway.

Except the demands of a family in the present are infinitely more salient than those of a hypothetical family in the future.

[cron1834]

2. My one (lame, but it's how it is) skill in life is being a 4.0/180 kind of super student. I know a lot of people pick HYS as a hedge against mediocre performance at CCN, but that's not a real risk in my case.

Sort of surprised everyone is letting this fly.

I definitely didn't. That very much figures into my assumption that Yale is the outcome here. The type of person that says shit like that is the type of person that take Yale over Hammy.

[jbagelboy]

If I ever heard a Columbia law grad say, "If only I had gone to Yale my life would be so much better" then I would know I'm dealing with an intelligent foo! Schools can get you in the door but your work product is what gets you noticed. Just being a Yale grad doesn't guarantee anyone scotus clerkships or potus potential, it means you have the best platform to start you career. The OP will be fine going to Columbia and won't miss anything by doing so.

Do you know a lot of people chasing academia? Law school hiring is way, way down and the competition is extreme. People move around the country for one or two year fellowships with no promise of permanent employment. It's hard to over estimate how challenging that path will be.

If that is OPs goal, then Yale is by far the best option.

I think you're omitting several important factors, such as that OP already has a credential that qualifies him for academia (a PhD), so they aren't some k-jd trying to make connections from scratch and snag a fellowship on the coattails of a major prof.

I know several PhDs from non-YLS schools including CLS interested in academia, and they have all been successful in publishing, lining up clerkships, and pursuing post-clerkship fellowships.

[James.K.Polk]

2. My one (lame, but it's how it is) skill in life is being a 4.0/180 kind of super student. I know a lot of people pick HYS as a hedge against mediocre performance at CCN, but that's not a real risk in my case.

Sort of surprised everyone is letting this fly.

I definitely didn't. That very much figures into my assumption that Yale is the outcome here. The type of person that says shit like that is the type of person that take Yale over Hammy.

Or the kind of person that gets a 4.0/180. I mean we can argue class difficulty/priorities/all else, but this kid has literally been perfect, academically speaking, and just assuming that will stop is at least somewhat naive.

[Paul Campos]

If you want academia go to Yale but don't commute from the city. That's way too difficult. Academic hiring in law is a highly competitive nightmare. You should go to Yale to have your best shot.

To learn more about academic hiring go to the faculty lounge blog. I would even email some of the people who run the blog. They know everything happening with academic hiring.

This is wrong. There is no prestige difference for the purposes of academic hiring between a YLS grad and Columbia grad on a Hamilton. Columbia is an extremely rich school with a giant faculty that has loads of connections throughout the law school academic world. It also has hundreds of graduates on law faculties.

[Elbble]

2. My one (lame, but it's how it is) skill in life is being a 4.0/180 kind of super student. I know a lot of people pick HYS as a hedge against mediocre performance at CCN, but that's not a real risk in my case.

Sort of surprised everyone is letting this fly.

I definitely didn't. That very much figures into my assumption that Yale is the outcome here. The type of person that says shit like that is the type of person that take Yale over Hammy.

Or the kind of person that gets a 4.0/180. I mean we can argue class difficulty/priorities/all else, but this kid has literally been perfect, academically speaking, and just assuming that will stop is at least somewhat naive.

Thanks James.K.Polk - I reread what I originally wrote and jeez, it sounds pretty douchey, but that was completely unintentional and I meant it the way you interpreted it - not at all as a brag (because it truly is nothing to brag about), but as a genuine factor that I have to consider in my very specific case.

[TatteredDignity]

2. My one (lame, but it's how it is) skill in life is being a 4.0/180 kind of super student. I know a lot of people pick HYS as a hedge against mediocre performance at CCN, but that's not a real risk in my case.

Sort of surprised everyone is letting this fly.

I definitely didn't. That very much figures into my assumption that Yale is the outcome here. The type of person that says shit like that is the type of person that take Yale over Hammy.

Or the kind of person that gets a 4.0/180. I mean we can argue class difficulty/priorities/all else, but this kid has literally been perfect, academically speaking, and just assuming that will stop is at least somewhat naive.

There's not a meaningful difference between a 4.0/180 and a 4.0/175, and she'll be competing against plenty of students with that profile at CLS. TLS usually reminds people about the power of the curve--just surprised OP is getting a pass.

[jbagelboy]

2. My one (lame, but it's how it is) skill in life is being a 4.0/180 kind of super student. I know a lot of people pick HYS as a hedge against mediocre performance at CCN, but that's not a real risk in my case.

Sort of surprised everyone is letting this fly.

I definitely didn't. That very much figures into my assumption that Yale is the outcome here. The type of person that says shit like that is the type of person that take Yale over Hammy.

Or the kind of person that gets a 4.0/180. I mean we can argue class difficulty/priorities/all else, but this kid has literally been perfect, academically speaking, and just assuming that will stop is at least somewhat naive.

Thanks James.K.Polk - I reread what I originally wrote and jeez, it sounds pretty douchey, but that was completely unintentional and I meant it the way you interpreted it - not at all as a brag (because it truly is nothing to brag about), but as a genuine factor that I have to consider in my very specific case.

Don't worry about it. Every Hamilton and Butler fellow I've known of has done very well, and I don't mean that just in terms of grades but more generally in school organizations, journals, with faculty, and with jobs. Not to say you have anything in the bag and that you won't have to work hard, but just that there is some correlation between people with your work ethic and standards and success in law school.

[Jchance]

Tossing in another vote for Columbia Hamilton, given your track record and PhD. 3 years away from SO and $200K+ are a lot to pay just for a small push in the direction of academia. You might not even want academia 3.5 years from now, which would make all those investments a huge waste.

[James.K.Polk]

2. My one (lame, but it's how it is) skill in life is being a 4.0/180 kind of super student. I know a lot of people pick HYS as a hedge against mediocre performance at CCN, but that's not a real risk in my case.

Sort of surprised everyone is letting this fly.

I definitely didn't. That very much figures into my assumption that Yale is the outcome here. The type of person that says shit like that is the type of person that take Yale over Hammy.

Or the kind of person that gets a 4.0/180. I mean we can argue class difficulty/priorities/all else, but this kid has literally been perfect, academically speaking, and just assuming that will stop is at least somewhat naive.

There's not a meaningful difference between a 4.0/180 and a 4.0/175, and she'll be competing against plenty of students with that profile at CLS. TLS usually reminds people about the power of the curve--just surprised OP is getting a pass.

That may well be true, but I'm just saying, you can't really knock someone who is perfect in LSAT and perfect in GPA and say 'that won't continue' just because you think it's unsustainable in law school, or the competition will get tougher. That isn't what OP's history tells us will happen.

I agree that a 175 is, for all intents and purposes, the same as a 180, but we all aimed for 180 when we took the LSAT, and OP got it. You're in a fantastic position, Yale vs. free Columbia, and believe me - I'd love to make the choice.

[jetsfan1]

I get the whole history of a perfect academic record will likely continue schtick, but I just wonder how difficult it will be at Columbia during the hyper competitive first semester with a newborn. For me, no grades first semester at Y becomes a huge plus here. Of course, this is pretty much offset by the commute...

It's a tough choice, although I'm leaning ever so slightly Hamilton here. That being said, I think a lot depends on your SO's situation and how he/she is feeling about the commute/debt/etc.

Regardless, best of luck OP!

[Cochran]

Thanks for your very helpful replies everyone, especially the handful of you guys making very thoughtful arguments in favor of Columbia.

My main question: Sometimes people on here talk as though there is a (very small, but existing) set of careers that are simply *not accessible*, full stop, to people outside of HYS, no matter how much they hustle or how good they are. That strikes me as a pretty wild claim, and it looks like a lot of you agree. But then I just can't understand what makes people give up Hamiltons and Rubies left and right to go to Yale, sometimes at extreme personal and financial cost. It's driving me a little crazy -- like what are they seeing that I'm not?

Anyway, thanks a lot -- also true that my husband's income (though objectively low for NYC) will basically disqualify us from loan assistance, another scary prospect.

As I've used these forums, I've seen similar sentiments. After doing research on linkein, this is unfounded. Yes, some schools offer better chances than others. But there are a plethora of exceptions (think Elizabeth Warren: J.D. from Rutgers, teached at Harvard, rumored SCOTUS candidate). I feel that nothing in this world is truly inaccessible, rather most things come down to how hard you're willing to work for them. So when comparing school's (especially these two schools), the question isn't "can you get there?" It's more about "will you work hard enough?"

[jnwa]

While goals are obviously goals the risk averse side of me is thinking about the worst case scenario from both schools. Worst case scenario from columbia you get biglaw with no debt, worst case scenario from Yale you get big law with 300k in debt. Im not sure what the kind of cushion Yale gives for academic hiring over Columbia but itd have to be crazy to justify paying sticker. Also OP, on the scale of one to "id commit suicide if i dont get a professorial job" how okay would you be with not getting academia. If you go to Yale and the academic route doesnt work out, being chained to biglaw for a decade because of debt seems like a shitty outcome.

[Elbble]

While goals are obviously goals the risk averse side of me is thinking about the worst case scenario from both schools. Worst case scenario from columbia you get biglaw with no debt, worst case scenario from Yale you get big law with 300k in debt. Im not sure what the kind of cushion Yale gives for academic hiring over Columbia but itd have to be crazy to justify paying sticker. Also OP, on the scale of one to "id commit suicide if i dont get a professorial job" how okay would you be with not getting academia. If you go to Yale and the academic route doesnt work out, being chained to biglaw for a decade because of debt seems like a shitty outcome.

Oh god, great question. I am much more horrified by the prospect of being stuck in biglaw than the prospect of not getting an academic job - I've seen academic life up close in grad school, and it's not all rainbows. That's partially why I'm headed to law school instead of going on the job market in my current field - I want to live in the real world for at least a little bit, doing something other than cranking out article after article for publication.

So maybe that's a big thing to consider - I see a good chance that I'll like what I'm doing enough to not want to come back to academia, but at the same time I want to keep the door open.

I can't believe how helpful you guys have been, and how much valuable advice I'm getting. Thank you all so much!

[A. Nony Mouse]

Something else to keep in mind is that there are definitely people who get into Yale who don't get the Hamilton or Ruby. There's at least one poster here who I think would have taken non-HYS with $$ over Yale but he just didn't really get decent money anywhere else, so Yale made sense. I can't remember if he was a splitter, but splitters have unpredictable outcomes.

(Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are people who've turned down the Hamilton/Ruby for Yale. But not everyone going to Yale is in that position.)

Again, I think that given you will have a pretty good idea of how academia works and what it requires, you will be able to accomplish at Columbia anything you can accomplish at Yale. Yale is maybe better for a K-JD who wants academia but has no realistic exposure/experience with it. But I suspect most of those types don't end up in academia anyway.

(Full disclosure: I did a PhD in the humanities. I did NOT have your law school options and went to a regional school, so can't comment on those schools. But if you ever want to chat about the transition more generally feel free to PM.)

[fliptrip]

This is such a blowout for Columbia now that I'm surprised the thread still has life. I feel ashamed I even mentioned Yale earlier.

[krads153]

While goals are obviously goals the risk averse side of me is thinking about the worst case scenario from both schools. Worst case scenario from columbia you get biglaw with no debt, worst case scenario from Yale you get big law with 300k in debt. Im not sure what the kind of cushion Yale gives for academic hiring over Columbia but itd have to be crazy to justify paying sticker. Also OP, on the scale of one to "id commit suicide if i dont get a professorial job" how okay would you be with not getting academia. If you go to Yale and the academic route doesnt work out, being chained to biglaw for a decade because of debt seems like a shitty outcome.

Oh god, great question. I am much more horrified by the prospect of being stuck in biglaw than the prospect of not getting an academic job - I've seen academic life up close in grad school, and it's not all rainbows. That's partially why I'm headed to law school instead of going on the job market in my current field - I want to live in the real world for at least a little bit, doing something other than cranking out article after article for publication.

So maybe that's a big thing to consider - I see a good chance that I'll like what I'm doing enough to not want to come back to academia, but at the same time I want to keep the door open.

I can't believe how helpful you guys have been, and how much valuable advice I'm getting. Thank you all so much!

I think you should go to Columbia - if you were single and definitely wanted academia, i might say otherwise, but you're not and given your circumstances it will make life a lot easier without 300k debt.

That said, Yale is miles and yards better for clerkships and academia (it just is) and there's no beating around the bush about that. But, there's a great chance you'd just be stuck in biglaw (that's where a lot of Yalies end up post clerkships anyway) and it looks like you don't want biglaw, so I'd take a full ride at Columbia over Yale.

[Tls2016]

If you want academia go to Yale but don't commute from the city. That's way too difficult. Academic hiring in law is a highly competitive nightmare. You should go to Yale to have your best shot.

To learn more about academic hiring go to the faculty lounge blog. I would even email some of the people who run the blog. They know everything happening with academic hiring.

This is wrong. There is no prestige difference for the purposes of academic hiring between a YLS grad and Columbia grad on a Hamilton. Columbia is an extremely rich school with a giant faculty that has loads of connections throughout the law school academic world. It also has hundreds of graduates on law faculties.

Thanks Professor Campos.My understanding was based on the experience of a few friends in academics. As this is the case, I'm going back on Yale and voting Columbia.

I think OP may end up in Yale anyway. It isn't the end of the world if he does.

[Tls2016]

If I ever heard a Columbia law grad say, "If only I had gone to Yale my life would be so much better" then I would know I'm dealing with an intelligent foo! Schools can get you in the door but your work product is what gets you noticed. Just being a Yale grad doesn't guarantee anyone scotus clerkships or potus potential, it means you have the best platform to start you career. The OP will be fine going to Columbia and won't miss anything by doing so.

Do you know a lot of people chasing academia? Law school hiring is way, way down and the competition is extreme. People move around the country for one or two year fellowships with no promise of permanent employment. It's hard to over estimate how challenging that path will be.

If that is OPs goal, then Yale is by far the best option.

I think you're omitting several important factors, such as that OP already has a credential that qualifies him for academia (a PhD), so they aren't some k-jd trying to make connections from scratch and snag a fellowship on the coattails of a major prof.

I know several PhDs from non-YLS schools including CLS interested in academia, and they have all been successful in publishing, lining up clerkships, and pursuing post-clerkship fellowships.

Yes. Thanks for correcting me. I was unintentionally giving OP bad advice.

[fliptrip]

FWIW, I am curious about this question for personal reasons and just communicated with another law prof at an "elite" school and he had a bit more nuanced opinion about the comparability between YLS and CLS than Professor Campos indicated. Happy to take PMs if anyone wants more information.