Is Columbia worth sticker? Forum

[krads153]

The total COA (including living costs for 3 years) is around 270k

Also, your previous posts state that you are the primary income earner for a family. I understand the desire to become a better provider or give your family a better life, but if you entering law school b/c are unfulfilled at your current job, I think you will find your career switch to be massive mistake if the only reason you decide to go to law school is because you're bored right now.

Primary earner for a family? Jesus - DON'T GO OP to Columbia at sticker.

It's hard enough working as a lawyer/paying off loans as a single/married without kids with a working spouse, let alone with as the "primary income earner for a family". You will be working longer hours at a more stressful job that you likely won't even enjoy (so good luck seeing your family). And you will be poor/ in debt. Don't ruin your life.

[krads153]

Sorry OP, I wish it made sense but going to another school that is surely offering money is a better monetary option. There are few extenuating circumstances that would make it a better decision than going elsewhere.

That being said, the lawyers on here telling someone who got into Columbia that they shouldn't go to law school are not giving helpful advice. If OP wants to be a lawyer they will certainly have options that are safe investments money wise. Some people get law degrees and hate their work, but many don't. Just because you hated it doesn't mean you should just blanket tell everyone 'don't go to law school no matter what'.

Lawyers who like their jobs:
- Rich, trust fund kids in public interest/non profit work doing cool stuff and working more normal hours (meanwhile parents pay their rent or bought them a place in NYC) (there were tons of these at my law school....)
- Biglaw partners who make lots of money (who wouldn't want to make 2 million a year doing limited grunt work)
- Maybe government attorneys who work normal hours with pensions
- Lawyers who make millions a year doing class action
- Maybe profitable solo practitioners and those at certain small firms?

For the most part, associates at big firms (which is likely what OP would be with 300k debt out of Columbia) don't like their work....plus, it looks like OP is older with a family. This would just be a big, stupid mistake.

[baal hadad]

Absolutely not unless you want to be financially miserable for 10-25 yrs

[FluffMonster]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=261122

[Mullens]

No. Columbia is not worth sticker unless you have a rich parents scenario. Go to a lower T14 on a large scholarship.

[rpupkin]

There are other options available, Columbia has just been my dream school for a long time so it is very hard to let it go. I realize the t14 (esp. at reduced cost) can still open doors, but for me it is much more that this is something I've really wanted.

I'm just piling on here, but it doesn't really make sense to have a "dream" law school. The law schools within the T14 are basically interchangeable. To the extent there are differences among the top law schools, those differences do not--in any circumstances--justify paying hundreds of thousands of dollars more for one T14 over another T14.

[L’Étranger]

This more nuanced than "don't go without a scholarship" like everyone above is saying.

Yes, if one has any scholarship at a comparable or nearly comparable school to Columbia, it should be seriously considered against Columbia at sticker.

However, if Columbia at sticker is one's only choice, career prospects out of Columbia are as good as they get. So if one wants to be an attorney with good job prospects at a cost of 270k that's not totally indefensible.

This is a subjective rather than objective choice. It is not objectively wrong to pay to go to a quality law school if one knows they want to pursue a career as an attorney.

Let's look at this objectively, OP is basically trading $195,724 in tuition and $120,000 in lost income over 3-years of school in order to "buy" an opportunity to make $x more as a lawyer. So, if we run this as an investment over 10 years with that $315,724 as your investment costs and your returns basically being your increased salary in law versus where he would be staying his current course. You don't stay in biglaw for long, so that differential is worth less over time. If you apply a generous 10% discount rate to account for shit happens, and generously assume OP sticks in biglaw 3 years, the NPV of that investment is -$60k. So, no, for this OP, sticker at Columbia is not objectively defensible.

My point is it's not objective. If being an attorney means a fulfilling career, then it could very well be worth the financial investment.

There's definitely a large contingent on TLS that does not find the attorney life fulfilling, but if you're someone who thinks they would enjoy being an attorney day to day for ~40 or so years, then you pay.

Medschools typically don't give scholarships and the average doctor makes less than the average big law associate. Is it not worth paying sticker for medschool? I'd say it comes primarily down to the same decision, i.e. will you be happy with this job for the rest of your working life.

[L’Étranger]

There are other options available, Columbia has just been my dream school for a long time so it is very hard to let it go. I realize the t14 (esp. at reduced cost) can still open doors, but for me it is much more that this is something I've really wanted.

I'm just piling on here, but it doesn't really make sense to have a "dream" law school. The law schools within the T14 are basically interchangeable. To the extent there are differences among the top law schools, those differences do not--in any circumstances--justify paying hundreds of thousands of dollars more for one T14 over another T14.

This is by far the most off the mark thing I have seen you post. The differences between the T-14 schools, while nuanced in some ways is extremely important to an applicant.

For example, going across the T-14, biglaw hiring and clerkship data are significantly different from school to school. Even looking closely at so called peer schools there often significant differences. So paying more for potentially better opportunities makes sense, no?

As another example, with the (arguable) exception of HYS, the T-14 schools are regional. So paying more for a better chance at landing in a region in which you wish to practice makes sense, no?

How much more it's worth is entirely up to the applicant and their interests.

[rpupkin]

There are other options available, Columbia has just been my dream school for a long time so it is very hard to let it go. I realize the t14 (esp. at reduced cost) can still open doors, but for me it is much more that this is something I've really wanted.

I'm just piling on here, but it doesn't really make sense to have a "dream" law school. The law schools within the T14 are basically interchangeable. To the extent there are differences among the top law schools, those differences do not--in any circumstances--justify paying hundreds of thousands of dollars more for one T14 over another T14.

This is by far the most off the mark thing I have seen you post. The differences between the T-14 schools, while nuanced in some ways is extremely important to an applicant.

For example, going across the T-14, biglaw hiring and clerkship data are significantly different from school to school. Even looking closely at so called pier schools there often significant differences. So paying more for potentially better opportunities makes sense, no?

While I agree with you to a point, here's what I wrote: "To the extent there are differences among the top law schools, those differences do not--in any circumstances--justify paying hundreds of thousands of dollars more for one T14 over another T14."

I stand by that statement. Sure, if you want NYC big law, and if CLS will only cost you $25K more than NU, then I think it's justifiable to go to CLS over NU. Or if you want California big law, and Boalt will cost you $25K more than UVA, then go to Boalt. But once the COA difference is north of $100K, it gets very hard to justify attending one school over the other. The regional differences you mention--which I grant you are worth something--don't come close to justifying the $270K of debt that the OP will take on if he attends CLS.

[Tls2016]

OP: did you apply ED to Columbia? I'm assuming you were held over into regular admissions so ED isn't binding.
But, were you planning to pay sticker at Columbia through the application process but now you aren't sure?

[fliptrip]

Medschools typically don't give scholarships and the average doctor makes less than the average big law associate. Is it not worth paying sticker for medschool? I'd say it comes primarily down to the same decision, i.e. will you be happy with this job for the rest of your working life.

This is a very poor and dangerous analogy for one reason--how many unemployed doctors do you know? The only one I am aware of is Debi Thomas, the former Olympic figure skater, who seems to have some kind of mental problems. Doctors can borrow like the dickens to go to med school because they are going to (1) get a job and (2) make more than enough to service the debt. They also have an upward sloping income curve, whereas for the vast majority of lawyers who hit biglaw, their biglaw salary their last year is the highest their salary will ever be.

[Tls2016]

Medschools typically don't give scholarships and the average doctor makes less than the average big law associate. Is it not worth paying sticker for medschool? I'd say it comes primarily down to the same decision, i.e. will you be happy with this job for the rest of your working life.

This is a very poor and dangerous analogy for one reason--how many unemployed doctors do you know? The only one I am aware of is Debi Thomas, the former Olympic figure skater, who seems to have some kind of mental problems. Doctors can borrow like the dickens to go to med school because they are going to (1) get a job and (2) make more than enough to service the debt. They also have an upward sloping income curve, whereas for the vast majority of lawyers who hit biglaw, their biglaw salary their last year is the highest their salary will ever be.

Do doctors even have some kind of up or out mentality like biglaw? The whole thing is so different because medical school has residency.

[timbs4339]

OP - I went to Columbia and now work biglaw. I have two questions:

1) Why Columbia?

2) Would your current job lead to more fulfillment in 3/5/10 years?

[krads153]

Medschools typically don't give scholarships and the average doctor makes less than the average big law associate. Is it not worth paying sticker for medschool? I'd say it comes primarily down to the same decision, i.e. will you be happy with this job for the rest of your working life.

This is a very poor and dangerous analogy for one reason--how many unemployed doctors do you know? The only one I am aware of is Debi Thomas, the former Olympic figure skater, who seems to have some kind of mental problems. Doctors can borrow like the dickens to go to med school because they are going to (1) get a job and (2) make more than enough to service the debt. They also have an upward sloping income curve, whereas for the vast majority of lawyers who hit biglaw, their biglaw salary their last year is the highest their salary will ever be.

Do doctors even have some kind of up or out mentality like biglaw? The whole thing is so different because medical school has residency.

lol no, you pretty much have to be delicensed to lose your job as a doctor...which means killing people and it's your fault

I think most med schools are pass/fail (in other words, do the bare minimum to pass exams) and 98% of med students at MD programs pass the Step 1...so a job is basically guaranteed unless you are a complete and utter moron....plus the average entering MCAT score is like a 30/31? I think that's only around 80th percentile......you definitely don't need a 95th percentile score or whatever to go to an MD program that guarantees you a job. And DO programs have decent employment and the average MCAT is only like a 50th percentile......so you can be an idiot and get a job.

It's kind of ridiculous job security (although to be fair, a lot of work seems to suck as well).

[SplitMyPants]

There are other options available, Columbia has just been my dream school for a long time so it is very hard to let it go. I realize the t14 (esp. at reduced cost) can still open doors, but for me it is much more that this is something I've really wanted.

I'm just piling on here, but it doesn't really make sense to have a "dream" law school. The law schools within the T14 are basically interchangeable. To the extent there are differences among the top law schools, those differences do not--in any circumstances--justify paying hundreds of thousands of dollars more for one T14 over another T14.

This is by far the most off the mark thing I have seen you post. The differences between the T-14 schools, while nuanced in some ways is extremely important to an applicant.

For example, going across the T-14, biglaw hiring and clerkship data are significantly different from school to school. Even looking closely at so called peer schools there often significant differences. So paying more for potentially better opportunities makes sense, no?

As another example, with the (arguable) exception of HYS, the T-14 schools are regional. So paying more for a better chance at landing in a region in which you wish to practice makes sense, no?

How much more it's worth is entirely up to the applicant and their interests.

To the extent that you want NYC big law, they are interchangeable.

[lurkerlarry]

So basically I'm getting a strong "for the love of GOD NO" feeling from this thread.

Does anyone have info outside of TLS anecdotes about the horrors of biglaw? Are there actual statistics on retention? I've read many of the horror stories.

[Tls2016]

http://www.mlaglobal.com/community/news ... 06-to-2011

This is a press release for an NALP study of retention from 2006 to 2011 that was published in 2014. They show a rate of 17% attrition which I think is low. You need to pay for the report so I haven't read the methodology.

Here is the NALP page linking the reports but I haven't read any of it. You might need to pay for them.
http://www.nalpfoundation.org/keepingthekeepersii

Law review examining layoffs and attrition during the recession:
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/academic ... ayoffs.pdf

Edit: in case you think this is new here is a study from 2000 http://coloradomentoring.org/wp-content ... 3-2002.pdf

And a Yale article from 2008: it's by a Yale student but shows the fundamental issues are unchanged.
http://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php ... 26&EXT=pdf

No one is making up these problems with biglaw.

[deepseapartners]

Does anyone have info outside of TLS anecdotes about the horrors of biglaw? Are there actual statistics on retention? I've read many of the horror stories.

Most V50 firms (the jobs you will be competing for from CLS) start with somewhere between 25-100 first-year associates. Only 2-5 associates make partner each year. You can look at various firm press releases for this info.

This forum is not say don't go to law school, it's saying don't attend CLS at sticker when you already have a career and, most importantly, when you have another law school offer that will not make you pay sticker.

[Tls2016]

Does anyone have info outside of TLS anecdotes about the horrors of biglaw? Are there actual statistics on retention? I've read many of the horror stories.

Most V50 firms (the jobs you will be competing for from CLS) start with somewhere between 25-100 first-year associates. Only 2-5 associates make partner each year. You can look at various firm press releases for this info.

This forum is not say don't go to law school, it's saying don't attend CLS at sticker when you already have a career and, most importantly, when you have another law school offer that will not make you pay sticker.

It's not just people don't make partner. It's that they leave in masses starting about year two right after bonuses are out.

Key findings from the national study between 2006-2011 (more than 22,000 associate hires and more than 17,000 associate departures), include:

Over one-half of participating firms expect an increase in lateral hiring within the next 24 months.
Departures of associates hired at the entry-level outpaced associates hired as laterals.
The average rate of associate attrition over the years covered was 17%.
Almost three-fourths of all associates who left their positions had tenure of five years or fewer; with highest attrition rates in years two-five.
Overall, minority associates left firms with less tenure than non-minority associates.
Key findings from the supplemental survey in Fall 2012 (85 law firm administrators), include:

Few firms anticipate changes in recruiting budgets or the number of administrative staff dedicated to recruiting within the next 24 months.
Nearly half of all responding law firms reported an increase in alternative career path/non-partner track lawyer recruitment and temporary lawyer recruitment over the past 24 months.

From the press release above:
http://www.mlaglobal.com/community/news ... 06-to-2011

[baal hadad]

Op people aren't leaving biglulz in yeah 3-4 bc they're getting up or outed they leave bc they hate their jobs

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

Please consider this: Your question is -

Is attending law school worth 7-9 years of making virtually nothing?

Woopee you get a biglaw job. But it takes you 3 years to graduate, and approximately 5 years to pay off debt. So you're back at square one after 8 fucking years. You'll have seen 2 Trump presidencies before you've paid off your debt. Shit man.

Of course the upside is that you'll make a lot of money after those 8 years.

But at least think about this: you have to give 8 years of the most important time of your life to make around $0. That's kinda shitty.

If you can get into Columbia and don't have a liberal arts degree go to biz school, be an engineer, or a doctor, or an i-banker.

If you are a liberal arts student at least go to NYU. Or go to a school like UVA/NU/etc. on a near-full ride with virtually the same chance of getting biglaw anyway.

Don't fuck this up.

[Tls2016]

Please consider this: Your question is -

Is attending law school worth 7-9 years of making virtually nothing?

Woopee you get a biglaw job. But it takes you 3 years to graduate, and approximately 5 years to pay off debt. So you're back at square one after 8 fucking years. You'll have seen 2 Trump presidencies before you've paid off your debt. Shit man.

Of course the upside is that you'll make a lot of money after those 8 years.

But at least think about this: you have to give 8 years of the most important time of your life to make around $0. That's kinda shitty.

If you can get into Columbia and don't have a liberal arts degree go to biz school, be an engineer, or a doctor, or an i-banker.

If you are a liberal arts student at least go to NYU. Or go to a school like UVA/NU/etc. on a near-full ride with virtually the same chance of getting biglaw anyway.

Don't fuck this up.

But OP has a good job making 80k a year and will be making low 6 figures in 3 years with what I'm assuming are decent hours (and benefits including pension) So he isn't your typical unemployable grad from the middle of nowhere seeking opportunity. Did you include his lost salary in this?
OP has not given a single tangible reason to throw away the job he has except it's unfulfilling and Columbia is his dream school.
I asked a long time ago in this thread, but OP never answered, what does he expect his law career will give him?
I may have detected a hint that OP doesn't quite believe the biglaw high turnover rate (close to 1 out of 5 attorneys every year) because many people can't take it. Hopefully he will continue to do more research.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Please consider this: Your question is -

Is attending law school worth 7-9 years of making virtually nothing?

Woopee you get a biglaw job. But it takes you 3 years to graduate, and approximately 5 years to pay off debt. So you're back at square one after 8 fucking years. You'll have seen 2 Trump presidencies before you've paid off your debt. Shit man.

Of course the upside is that you'll make a lot of money after those 8 years.

But at least think about this: you have to give 8 years of the most important time of your life to make around $0. That's kinda shitty.

If you can get into Columbia and don't have a liberal arts degree go to biz school, be an engineer, or a doctor, or an i-banker.

At this point going to med school would also be a terrible financial decision - it would be like 10 years of opportunity cost and tuition......on average doctors don't make that much to compensate for the 10 years of foregone income.

If you are a liberal arts student at least go to NYU.

Huh?

[fliptrip]

If you are a liberal arts student at least go to NYU.

Huh?

I have to admit some considerable puzzlement as well.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Please consider this: Your question is -

Is attending law school worth 7-9 years of making virtually nothing?

Woopee you get a biglaw job. But it takes you 3 years to graduate, and approximately 5 years to pay off debt. So you're back at square one after 8 fucking years. You'll have seen 2 Trump presidencies before you've paid off your debt. Shit man.

Of course the upside is that you'll make a lot of money after those 8 years.

But at least think about this: you have to give 8 years of the most important time of your life to make around $0. That's kinda shitty.

If you can get into Columbia and don't have a liberal arts degree go to biz school, be an engineer, or a doctor, or an i-banker.

If you are a liberal arts student at least go to NYU. Or go to a school like UVA/NU/etc. on a near-full ride with virtually the same chance of getting biglaw anyway.

Don't fuck this up.

But OP has a good job making 80k a year and will be making low 6 figures in 3 years with what I'm assuming are decent hours (and benefits including pension) So he isn't your typical unemployable grad from the middle of nowhere seeking opportunity. Did you include his lost salary in this?
OP has not given a single tangible reason to throw away the job he has except it's unfulfilling and Columbia is his dream school.
I asked a long time ago in this thread, but OP never answered, what does he expect his law career will give him?
I may have detected a hint that OP doesn't quite believe the biglaw high turnover rate (close to 1 out of 5 attorneys every year) because many people can't take it. Hopefully he will continue to do more research.

At this point this thread has pretty much done its job - if OP doesn't believe every practicing attorney ITT then he can take out 300k debt and come back in 4 years when he hates his life. LJL.