T2 or T14 to HYS Forum

[thricelawyer9]

So saying "Don't go to law school at all" is better advice than answering the question? Maybe this is good advice. According to TLS standards, of course.

I stand by the TLS standard. If you're considering a lower T14 at sticker price, and if your main goal is "transfer to HYS," then, no, you should not go to law school.

I don't see how aiming to attend one of the best law schools, especially if I want to do big law, means that I should not go to law school. Yes, I agree that giving advice, whether answering the question or simply offering your opinion, is important because it gives the OP a chance to hear what they hadn't thought about before, basically the pros and cons. But I don't see how you telling me I should not go to law school is a relevant answer either.

I completely understand that no one should go to any law school simply to transfer to another. And that is not my point. If know that the higher your are in the T14, and the higher you are in class rank/gpa, the better your chances are out of school, especially in big law. So why would me trying to transfer to one of those schools be bad? It's not like I'm saying, "I'm going to law school just so I can see what the best law school I can get into is!"

Dude if BigLaw is what you want, go to GULC. Then think of transferring to HYS as a bonus and something to motivate you during the semester. If I were in your shoes, I would 100% go to GULC.

[mm89]

I know that it is a horrible idea to go into one school with the mindset of transferring to another, but I know that is what I want to do and need to do in order to get where I want. And I know that grades in law school can be extremely hard to predict because of the curve. That being said, I'm going to do everything I can to get to the best school possible. And if it turns out that I stay at my T2 or low T14, then so be it. But I don't think it's a bad thing to want to do better and aim for HYS.

It's ok, I understand the skepticism about trying to predict anything without 1L grades. I just need input about what everyone else thinks is the best route to take.

This is an easy choice. Go to the T14. Even if you're #1 at a TT, getting in to HYS will still be hard. You might not even get in. T14 will give you a better shot just being top 10-15%.

Another piece of advice. Everyone goes into law school thinking they're going to be in the top 10%. There are extremely smart people you will compete with, even at a TT. Just because you got in to a T14 doesn't mean you'll even be top 10% at the TT. That's why a large percentage of students lose their scholarships after the first year.

Don't go to a TT thinking you will be able to transfer to HYS. Chances are you wont even be able to transfer to the T14 school you turned down.

I know everyone thinks they're gonna be too 10% but I'm not banking on that. I mean, I am, but if I'm not, then I'm not. But thanks for actually answering my question lol.

[rpupkin]

I don't see how aiming to attend one of the best law schools, especially if I want to do big law, means that I should not go to law school.

It doesn't. You should aim for attending the best law schools. That's why you should do everything you can to maximize your LSAT score.

The problem isn't that you're aiming to attend HYS; the problem is that you may attend GULC at sticker without a goal that is realistic in light of how you'll likely perform (i.e., around median). If you end up somewhere outside the top 15% of the class, you're not going to HYS. Then what? You're at GULC with massive debt. Now, maybe you're fine with that outcome, but you really should be thinking more about what that (likely) world will look like, and less about what a "what if I finish in the top 10% of my class?" world will look like. If you're only focused on the latter, I do think it's a mistake to go to law school.

[Nebby]

Go to GULC

[thricelawyer9]

I know that it is a horrible idea to go into one school with the mindset of transferring to another, but I know that is what I want to do and need to do in order to get where I want. And I know that grades in law school can be extremely hard to predict because of the curve. That being said, I'm going to do everything I can to get to the best school possible. And if it turns out that I stay at my T2 or low T14, then so be it. But I don't think it's a bad thing to want to do better and aim for HYS.

It's ok, I understand the skepticism about trying to predict anything without 1L grades. I just need input about what everyone else thinks is the best route to take.

This is an easy choice. Go to the T14. Even if you're #1 at a TT, getting in to HYS will still be hard. You might not even get in. T14 will give you a better shot just being top 10-15%.

Another piece of advice. Everyone goes into law school thinking they're going to be in the top 10%. There are extremely smart people you will compete with, even at a TT. Just because you got in to a T14 doesn't mean you'll even be top 10% at the TT. That's why a large percentage of students lose their scholarships after the first year.

Don't go to a TT thinking you will be able to transfer to HYS. Chances are you wont even be able to transfer to the T14 school you turned down.

I know everyone thinks they're gonna be too 10% but I'm not banking on that. I mean, I am, but if I'm not, then I'm not. But thanks for actually answering my question lol.

No worries. You should also think about transferring to Columbia or NYU, and both of these are definitely realistic goals. Plus, they both have better BigLaw hiring and NY placement than Harvard.

[mornincounselor]

Is it definitely GULC and not Cornell?

Honestly, if OP's goal is HYS -> NYC big law (which again is silly because if you do well enough to get into HYS it's unlikely you would need a degree from there to get NYC anyhow) then I have to assume OP is not very concerned with costs. As such, go with the t14.

[mm89]

I don't see how aiming to attend one of the best law schools, especially if I want to do big law, means that I should not go to law school.

It doesn't. You should aim for attending the best law schools. That's why you should do everything you can to maximize your LSAT score.

The problem isn't that you're aiming to attend HYS; the problem is that you may attend GULC at sticker without a goal that is realistic in light of how you'll likely perform (i.e., around median). If you end up somewhere outside the top 15% of the class, you're not going to HYS. Then what? You're at GULC with massive debt. Now, maybe you're fine with that outcome, but you really should be thinking more about what that (likely) world will look like, and less about what a "what if I finish in the top 10% of my class?" world will look like. If you're only focused on the latter, I do think it's a mistake to go to law school.

True. But I never said I was leaning towards going to T14 over T2. That's why I asked for everyone's opinions. I know why I want to go to law school, I'm just torn between which one and the what ifs & future scenarios.

[mm89]

I know that it is a horrible idea to go into one school with the mindset of transferring to another, but I know that is what I want to do and need to do in order to get where I want. And I know that grades in law school can be extremely hard to predict because of the curve. That being said, I'm going to do everything I can to get to the best school possible. And if it turns out that I stay at my T2 or low T14, then so be it. But I don't think it's a bad thing to want to do better and aim for HYS.

It's ok, I understand the skepticism about trying to predict anything without 1L grades. I just need input about what everyone else thinks is the best route to take.

This is an easy choice. Go to the T14. Even if you're #1 at a TT, getting in to HYS will still be hard. You might not even get in. T14 will give you a better shot just being top 10-15%.

Another piece of advice. Everyone goes into law school thinking they're going to be in the top 10%. There are extremely smart people you will compete with, even at a TT. Just because you got in to a T14 doesn't mean you'll even be top 10% at the TT. That's why a large percentage of students lose their scholarships after the first year.

Don't go to a TT thinking you will be able to transfer to HYS. Chances are you wont even be able to transfer to the T14 school you turned down.

I know everyone thinks they're gonna be too 10% but I'm not banking on that. I mean, I am, but if I'm not, then I'm not. But thanks for actually answering my question lol.

No worries. You should also think about transferring to Columbia or NYU, and both of these are definitely realistic goals. Plus, they both have better BigLaw hiring and NY placement than Harvard.

Definitely. I think anywhere in the T6 would be great. I only specified Harvard because, come on, its Harvard, haha. But you're right, Columbia & NYU both are great options. Thanks!

[Mullens]

So saying "Don't go to law school at all" is better advice than answering the question? Maybe this is good advice. According to TLS standards, of course.

I stand by the TLS standard. If you're considering a lower T14 at sticker price, and if your main goal is "transfer to HYS," then, no, you should not go to law school.

I don't see how aiming to attend one of the best law schools, especially if I want to do big law, means that I should not go to law school. Yes, I agree that giving advice, whether answering the question or simply offering your opinion, is important because it gives the OP a chance to hear what they hadn't thought about before, basically the pros and cons. But I don't see how you telling me I should not go to law school is a relevant answer either.

I completely understand that no one should go to any law school simply to transfer to another. And that is not my point. If know that the higher your are in the T14, and the higher you are in class rank/gpa, the better your chances are out of school, especially in big law. So why would me trying to transfer to one of those schools be bad? It's not like I'm saying, "I'm going to law school just so I can see what the best law school I can get into is!"

This post is the reason people ask questions and don't just accept the premise of a thread. If we had just accepted the premise, the poster would not have gotten good advice about what OCI looks like and how getting a biglaw job actually works. No 0L really understand biglaw hiring and the reasoning below will show how trying to transfer to HYS might actually hurt you for top firm hiring.

If you only want biglaw, it makes no sense to try to transfer from a T14 to HYS. You go through OCI at the end of 1L and firms will view you the same whether you transferred or not. In fact, you odds at top firms are probably better if you don't transfer. The top firms attend all the t14 schools (or will pre-select the kids at the very top of the classes) and numbers-wise you are probably more likely to get a callback being top 5% at the T14 versus as a transfer at HYS where the callbacks will go to the native top 5% kids. Most firms callback a set number of kids from each school and your odds are likely better if you're at the top of your T14 class and don't have to compete for callback spots with native kids. At the callback stage, it's likely all bets are off and you are just viewed as top 5% at a lower T14.

That being said, if your goal is only to get a biglaw job, I highly highly recommend retaking the LSAT and sitting out this cycle so you can get a large scholarship to a lower T14. Taking time off and working also improves your ability to sell yourself at OCI and will likely result in you getting a better position than as a K-JD. The longer you work, the better. Better firm+less debt is far better than the negative of waiting a year. Applying this late in the cycle also hurts you greatly with scholarships.

People post here and give advice because they want to help people. Most people have good intentions and you should listen and carefully consider all the advice you receive. We've all been through this and many of us know things you couldn't possibly understand or fully appreciate until you come out the other side, I promise.

[mm89]

Is it definitely GULC and not Cornell?

Honestly, if OP's goal is HYS -> NYC big law (which again is silly because if you do well enough to get into HYS it's unlikely you would need a degree from there to get NYC anyhow) then I have to assume OP is not very concerned with costs. As such, go with the t14.

What do you suggest?

[mornincounselor]

Is it definitely GULC and not Cornell?

Honestly, if OP's goal is HYS -> NYC big law (which again is silly because if you do well enough to get into HYS it's unlikely you would need a degree from there to get NYC anyhow) then I have to assume OP is not very concerned with costs. As such, go with the t14.

What do you suggest?

Personally, depending on your LSAT/GPA breakdown I would either go to a 20ish ranked school with significant aid or retake. Actually, I might do ND or UIUC.

[mm89]

So saying "Don't go to law school at all" is better advice than answering the question? Maybe this is good advice. According to TLS standards, of course.

I stand by the TLS standard. If you're considering a lower T14 at sticker price, and if your main goal is "transfer to HYS," then, no, you should not go to law school.

I don't see how aiming to attend one of the best law schools, especially if I want to do big law, means that I should not go to law school. Yes, I agree that giving advice, whether answering the question or simply offering your opinion, is important because it gives the OP a chance to hear what they hadn't thought about before, basically the pros and cons. But I don't see how you telling me I should not go to law school is a relevant answer either.

I completely understand that no one should go to any law school simply to transfer to another. And that is not my point. If know that the higher your are in the T14, and the higher you are in class rank/gpa, the better your chances are out of school, especially in big law. So why would me trying to transfer to one of those schools be bad? It's not like I'm saying, "I'm going to law school just so I can see what the best law school I can get into is!"

This post is the reason people ask questions and don't just accept the premise of a thread. If we had just accepted the premise, the poster would not have gotten good advice about what OCI looks like and how getting a biglaw job actually works. No 0L really understand biglaw hiring and the reasoning below will show how trying to transfer to HYS might actually hurt you for top firm hiring.

If you only want biglaw, it makes no sense to try to transfer from a T14 to HYS. You go through OCI at the end of 1L and firms will view you the same whether you transferred or not. In fact, you odds at top firms are probably better if you don't transfer. The top firms attend all the t14 schools (or will pre-select the kids at the very top of the classes) and numbers-wise you are probably more likely to get a callback being top 5% at the T14 versus as a transfer at HYS where the callbacks will go to the native top 5% kids. Most firms callback a set number of kids from each school and your odds are likely better if you're at the top of your T14 class and don't have to compete for callback spots with native kids. At the callback stage, it's likely all bets are off and you are just viewed as top 5% at a lower T14.

That being said, if your goal is only to get a biglaw job, I highly highly recommend retaking the LSAT and sitting out this cycle so you can get a large scholarship to a lower T14. Taking time off and working also improves your ability to sell yourself at OCI and will likely result in you getting a better position than as a K-JD. The longer you work, the better. Better firm+less debt is far better than the negative of waiting a year. Applying this late in the cycle also hurts you greatly with scholarships.

People post here and give advice because they want to help people. Most people have good intentions and you should listen and carefully consider all the advice you receive. We've all been through this and many of us know things you couldn't possibly understand or fully appreciate until you come out the other side, I promise.

Yes, I completely understand and agree with you, which is why I asked the question on here. There are others who either have the answers or have experienced this first hand and can give me the best advice. And I'm ok with people saying T2 and people saying T14. That's the whole point, to understand both sides. I just don't want people to think my main gpa in life is to transfer to HYS. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

[thricelawyer9]

So saying "Don't go to law school at all" is better advice than answering the question? Maybe this is good advice. According to TLS standards, of course.

I stand by the TLS standard. If you're considering a lower T14 at sticker price, and if your main goal is "transfer to HYS," then, no, you should not go to law school.

I don't see how aiming to attend one of the best law schools, especially if I want to do big law, means that I should not go to law school. Yes, I agree that giving advice, whether answering the question or simply offering your opinion, is important because it gives the OP a chance to hear what they hadn't thought about before, basically the pros and cons. But I don't see how you telling me I should not go to law school is a relevant answer either.

I completely understand that no one should go to any law school simply to transfer to another. And that is not my point. If know that the higher your are in the T14, and the higher you are in class rank/gpa, the better your chances are out of school, especially in big law. So why would me trying to transfer to one of those schools be bad? It's not like I'm saying, "I'm going to law school just so I can see what the best law school I can get into is!"

This post is the reason people ask questions and don't just accept the premise of a thread. If we had just accepted the premise, the poster would not have gotten good advice about what OCI looks like and how getting a biglaw job actually works. No 0L really understand biglaw hiring and the reasoning below will show how trying to transfer to HYS might actually hurt you for top firm hiring.

If you only want biglaw, it makes no sense to try to transfer from a T14 to HYS. You go through OCI at the end of 1L and firms will view you the same whether you transferred or not. In fact, you odds at top firms are probably better if you don't transfer. The top firms attend all the t14 schools (or will pre-select the kids at the very top of the classes) and numbers-wise you are probably more likely to get a callback being top 5% at the T14 versus as a transfer at HYS where the callbacks will go to the native top 5% kids. Most firms callback a set number of kids from each school and your odds are likely better if you're at the top of your T14 class and don't have to compete for callback spots with native kids. At the callback stage, it's likely all bets are off and you are just viewed as top 5% at a lower T14.

That being said, if your goal is only to get a biglaw job, I highly highly recommend retaking the LSAT and sitting out this cycle so you can get a large scholarship to a lower T14. Taking time off and working also improves your ability to sell yourself at OCI and will likely result in you getting a better position than as a K-JD. The longer you work, the better. Better firm+less debt is far better than the negative of waiting a year. Applying this late in the cycle also hurts you greatly with scholarships.

People post here and give advice because they want to help people. Most people have good intentions and you should listen and carefully consider all the advice you receive. We've all been through this and many of us know things you couldn't possibly understand or fully appreciate until you come out the other side, I promise.

I just seriously doubt that sitting out a year and retaking the LSAT will get OP a scholarship at a better ranked T14. How much would he have to increase his score by? 5 points? 10 points? Most people do exactly the same or worse. Additionally, even if they improve their LSAT, the BigLaw hiring from a lower T14 is probably not that much better to make sitting out a year worth it.

I do agree with you that transferring can definitely hurt your chances of BigLaw at OCI at the new school. OP will definitely get a better idea of the pros and cons of transferring during 1L year. I just think they should learn more about the pros and cons when they're already at a good school and won't have screwed themselves out of going to a T14.

[thricelawyer9]

Is it definitely GULC and not Cornell?

Honestly, if OP's goal is HYS -> NYC big law (which again is silly because if you do well enough to get into HYS it's unlikely you would need a degree from there to get NYC anyhow) then I have to assume OP is not very concerned with costs. As such, go with the t14.

What do you suggest?

Personally, depending on your LSAT/GPA breakdown I would either go to a 20ish ranked school with significant aid or retake. Actually, I might do ND or UIUC.

This is really good advice.

[Mullens]

Sticker at GULC is a terrible idea. Even if you're lucky enough to win the biglaw coinflip, you're looking at like 300k in debt. You'll be paying like 3k a month for more than 10 years to pay that off. You don't want or understand that kind of debt. If you focus on a retake and really go for it, you could go up 5 or 10 points. I went up 11. It happens all the time on these forums from people who dedicate themselves to studying for the LSAT.

I sat out two cycles after my first applications and it was the best decision I ever made. I got a huge scholarship to a T14 and will graduate debt free thanks to my savings from working for two years.

[jbagelboy]

Why do you need to transfer to HYS?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I just seriously doubt that sitting out a year and retaking the LSAT will get OP a scholarship at a better ranked T14. How much would he have to increase his score by? 5 points? 10 points? Most people do exactly the same or worse. Additionally, even if they improve their LSAT, the BigLaw hiring from a lower T14 is probably not that much better to make sitting out a year worth it.

This is demonstrably untrue. See e.g. here and also here. Retakers on average score nearly three points better than their first test. And as piles and piles of data have confirmed, three points can make a massive (tens of thousands of $) difference in scholarship awards.

All the people telling OP to go to GULC at sticker instead of retaking for significantly better opportunities: Delete your account before you fuck someone's life up.

[gamerish]

I just seriously doubt that sitting out a year and retaking the LSAT will get OP a scholarship at a better ranked T14. How much would he have to increase his score by? 5 points? 10 points? Most people do exactly the same or worse.

Most people don't study like TLSers do.

Additionally, even if they improve their LSAT, the BigLaw hiring from a lower T14 is probably not that much better to make sitting out a year worth it

Maybe not, but not being $250,000 in debt at graduation from GTown is most certainly worth the year it would take to get a score that commands a substantial enough scholarship to make attendance a financially reasonable choice.

[fliptrip]

We don't know some stuff about OP. More specifically:

1. I think OP is URM
2. We have no idea of OP's LSAT/GPA situation. Any school choice/retake discussion should incorporate this information too.

Can you add some more info, OP?

Also, OP, how did you get into Georgetown so fast?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 9#p9187329

[thricelawyer9]

.

[thricelawyer9]

I just seriously doubt that sitting out a year and retaking the LSAT will get OP a scholarship at a better ranked T14. How much would he have to increase his score by? 5 points? 10 points? Most people do exactly the same or worse.

Most people don't study like TLSers do.

Additionally, even if they improve their LSAT, the BigLaw hiring from a lower T14 is probably not that much better to make sitting out a year worth it

Maybe not, but not being $250,000 in debt at graduation from GTown is most certainly worth the year it would take to get a score that commands a substantial enough scholarship to make attendance a financially reasonable choice.

"Most people don't study like TLSers do."

Unless this is sarcastic, which I honestly can't tell if it is, I'd say the opposite is most likely true. TLS is seriously a big waste of time.

[thricelawyer9]

I just seriously doubt that sitting out a year and retaking the LSAT will get OP a scholarship at a better ranked T14. How much would he have to increase his score by? 5 points? 10 points? Most people do exactly the same or worse. Additionally, even if they improve their LSAT, the BigLaw hiring from a lower T14 is probably not that much better to make sitting out a year worth it.

This is demonstrably untrue. See e.g. here and also here. Retakers on average score nearly three points better than their first test. And as piles and piles of data have confirmed, three points can make a massive (tens of thousands of $) difference in scholarship awards.

All the people telling OP to go to GULC at sticker instead of retaking for significantly better opportunities: Delete your account before you fuck someone's life up.

That info doesn't prove anything. It only tells you what the test takers first score was, and how many of them scored within the same range as their first test score. The range includes their first test score. And the majority of people score within the same range. There's a likelihood that a lot of these people did the same or 1 point higher. In any event, not enough to increase their chances.

Maybe retaking and sitting out a year is better only if you are confident you didn't perform your best the first time.

[thricelawyer9]

I just seriously doubt that sitting out a year and retaking the LSAT will get OP a scholarship at a better ranked T14. How much would he have to increase his score by? 5 points? 10 points? Most people do exactly the same or worse.

Most people don't study like TLSers do.

Additionally, even if they improve their LSAT, the BigLaw hiring from a lower T14 is probably not that much better to make sitting out a year worth it

Maybe not, but not being $250,000 in debt at graduation from GTown is most certainly worth the year it would take to get a score that commands a substantial enough scholarship to make attendance a financially reasonable choice.

A better statement is probably "Most people don't talk about how much they study like TLSers do."

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I just seriously doubt that sitting out a year and retaking the LSAT will get OP a scholarship at a better ranked T14. How much would he have to increase his score by? 5 points? 10 points? Most people do exactly the same or worse. Additionally, even if they improve their LSAT, the BigLaw hiring from a lower T14 is probably not that much better to make sitting out a year worth it.

This is demonstrably untrue. See e.g. here and also here. Retakers on average score nearly three points better than their first test. And as piles and piles of data have confirmed, three points can make a massive (tens of thousands of $) difference in scholarship awards.

All the people telling OP to go to GULC at sticker instead of retaking for significantly better opportunities: Delete your account before you fuck someone's life up.

That info doesn't prove anything. It only tells you what the test takers first score was, and how many of them scored within the same range as their first test score. The range includes their first test score. And the majority of people score within the same range. There's a likelihood that a lot of these people did the same or 1 point higher. In any event, not enough to increase their chances.

Maybe retaking and sitting out a year is better only if you are confident you didn't perform your best the first time.

...did you not read either link?

The first link gives you the average of test takers the second time around based on the first score. For your convenience, here's a few of them reproduced, with the average repeater score in parentheses:

160 (162.7)
161 (163.5)
162 (164.5)
163 (165.5)
164 (166.5)
165 (167.4)
166 (168.3)
167 (169.3)
168 (169.7)
169 (171.1)

And if you somehow missed that, the sheet also includes helpful columns showing you how many people's scores went up, down, and stayed the same. A quick glance at any band will show you that a large majority of test takers see at least some improvement after repeating.

And if you somehow missed that, the second link just up and tells you "Test takers who repeated the LSAT gained an average of 2.8 points the second time they took the test and 2.2 points the third time they took the test (compared to the second time)."

[A. Nony Mouse]

"Most people don't study like TLSers do."

Unless this is sarcastic, which I honestly can't tell if it is, I'd say the opposite is most likely true. TLS is seriously a big waste of time.

Just because you personally don't see the value of an online community in preparing for the LSAT and law school doesn't mean there isn't any.