Yale vs. Stanford vs. Ruby Forum

[gerard]

Go w/ chicago. Great city - and can be affordable/family friendly if you pick the right neighborhood. Also, inflate your COA numbers across the board.

From personal experience (and an extensive thread on the issue - can't find link), almost everyone takes on more debt/has a higher COA than they expected.

Regardless, Chicago is the pick

Good point. My own spreadsheets actually have higher figures, but I tried to match the general TLS consensus on the total COA for these schools/scholarships. I think these numbers are still higher than others I've seen, but you're right that we tend to underestimate.

[RaceJudicata]

Go w/ chicago. Great city - and can be affordable/family friendly if you pick the right neighborhood. Also, inflate your COA numbers across the board.

From personal experience (and an extensive thread on the issue - can't find link), almost everyone takes on more debt/has a higher COA than they expected.

Regardless, Chicago is the pick

Good point. My own spreadsheets actually have higher figures, but I tried to match the general TLS consensus on the total COA for these schools/scholarships. I think these numbers are still higher than others I've seen, but you're right that we tend to underestimate.

Exactly. I think taking that into consideration only pushes the needle further towards Chicago. 300k is a scary number, albeit doable from Stanford

[Otunga]

This is a no brainer to me (Chicago), unless you come from money.

Even if he/she did, so what? It'd still make very little sense - that saved money could be invested elsewhere.

I guess, but if you have 10 million in the bank, then who really cares how you spend 300k over three years if you're making 300k a year on investments alone....although not rational, that's my personal opinion, depending on how wealthy you are.

I suppose to me that Yale's the only school to qualify for "spend the money if you're super wealthy" privilege even if you can go to a school like Chicago free.

[landshoes]

I would ask the admissions people if they'd be willing to put you in touch with a prof on the academic committee and/or the clerkship committee.

Both of those outcomes are very doable from Chicago, and I generally agree that the difference is not so large that I'd turn down a Ruby for them.

[nerd1]

This is a no brainer to me (Chicago), unless you come from money.

Even if he/she did, so what? It'd still make very little sense - that saved money could be invested elsewhere.

I guess, but if you have 10 million in the bank, then who really cares how you spend 300k over three years if you're making 300k a year on investments alone....although not rational, that's my personal opinion, depending on how wealthy you are.

I suppose to me that Yale's the only school to qualify for "spend the money if you're super wealthy" privilege even if you can go to a school like Chicago free.

If someone is rich or his/her parents are rich and they are supporting him/her, let him/her do whatever he/she wants to do with his/her money or his/her parents' money. They would be buying prestige. The wisdom of choosing Ruby over Stanford like here is that prestige is not worth that much amount of money. That consideration doesn't apply to wealthy people to whom the scholarship amount doesn't mean much anyway. Those people can afford to buy prestige at $180,000.

The tiers YHS, CCN etc are really there and law firms go deeper down in say H than at say Columbia, and generally, a Stanford degree is better to have than a UChicago degree. It's just that all those things are not worth the Ruby amount (or Hamilton to a lesser extent). For rich people, I don't think buying prestige at an inflated price is irrational. The good has a value which they can afford without much problem. You could criticize those people's preferences (e.g. why do they care about prestige at all?) but that's a different issue.

[gerard]

This is a no brainer to me (Chicago), unless you come from money.

Even if he/she did, so what? It'd still make very little sense - that saved money could be invested elsewhere.

I guess, but if you have 10 million in the bank, then who really cares how you spend 300k over three years if you're making 300k a year on investments alone....although not rational, that's my personal opinion, depending on how wealthy you are.

I suppose to me that Yale's the only school to qualify for "spend the money if you're super wealthy" privilege even if you can go to a school like Chicago free.

If someone is rich or his/her parents are rich and they are supporting him/her, let him/her do whatever he/she wants to do with his/her money or his/her parents' money. They would be buying prestige. The wisdom of choosing Ruby over Stanford like here is that prestige is not worth that much amount of money. That consideration doesn't apply to wealthy people to whom the scholarship amount doesn't mean much anyway. Those people can afford to buy prestige at $180,000.

The tiers YHS, CCN etc are really there and law firms go deeper down in say H than at say Columbia, and generally, a Stanford degree is better to have than a UChicago degree. It's just that all those things are not worth the Ruby amount (or Hamilton to a lesser extent). For rich people, I don't think buying prestige at an inflated price is irrational. The good has a value which they can afford without much problem. You could criticize those people's preferences (e.g. why do they care about prestige at all?) but that's a different issue.

Maybe you're just discussing this as a hypothetical, but I'll confirm that this is definitely not my situation. My parents recently gave me $100 on my birthday because they both finally got jobs and they could afford it, but that's pretty much the only aid I've gotten since I graduated from high school.

This makes it sound like I'll get grant aid, but, like I said, they've got a strange financial situation. With the aforementioned new jobs, their combined income's pretty high (approaching $200k), and I hear that's what matters most in calculating grant aid. We'll see what H/S say in a month or two, but I'm expecting either a token grant or no aid.

[nerd1]

This is a no brainer to me (Chicago), unless you come from money.

Even if he/she did, so what? It'd still make very little sense - that saved money could be invested elsewhere.

I guess, but if you have 10 million in the bank, then who really cares how you spend 300k over three years if you're making 300k a year on investments alone....although not rational, that's my personal opinion, depending on how wealthy you are.

I suppose to me that Yale's the only school to qualify for "spend the money if you're super wealthy" privilege even if you can go to a school like Chicago free.

If someone is rich or his/her parents are rich and they are supporting him/her, let him/her do whatever he/she wants to do with his/her money or his/her parents' money. They would be buying prestige. The wisdom of choosing Ruby over Stanford like here is that prestige is not worth that much amount of money. That consideration doesn't apply to wealthy people to whom the scholarship amount doesn't mean much anyway. Those people can afford to buy prestige at $180,000.

The tiers YHS, CCN etc are really there and law firms go deeper down in say H than at say Columbia, and generally, a Stanford degree is better to have than a UChicago degree. It's just that all those things are not worth the Ruby amount (or Hamilton to a lesser extent). For rich people, I don't think buying prestige at an inflated price is irrational. The good has a value which they can afford without much problem. You could criticize those people's preferences (e.g. why do they care about prestige at all?) but that's a different issue.

Maybe you're just discussing this as a hypothetical, but I'll confirm that this is definitely not my situation. My parents recently gave me $100 on my birthday because they both finally got jobs and they could afford it, but that's pretty much the only aid I've gotten since I graduated from high school.

This makes it sound like I'll get grant aid, but, like I said, they've got a strange financial situation. With the aforementioned new jobs, their combined income's pretty high (approaching $200k), and I hear that's what matters most in calculating grant aid. We'll see what H/S say in a month or two, but I'm expecting either a token grant or no aid.

Never meant to address your situation. Just responding to the comment I quoted. Aim was to raise a point many people on this forum overlook: it all depends on the person's situation.

[heythatslife]

Since you're married with a kid on the way, I'm curious - how old are you? You might be old enough for parental contribution to mot count your financial aid calculations. Parental resources starting being phased out at 25 at HLS, and with dependents your demonstrated need may come out to be significantly higher than single students. It won't be cheaper than a Ruby but your CoA at H/S may end up being a lot lower than you expect.

[fliptrip]

Since you're married with a kid on the way, I'm curious - how old are you? You might be old enough for parental contribution to mot count your financial aid calculations. Parental resources starting being phased out at 25 at HLS, and with dependents your demonstrated need may come out to be significantly higher than single students. It won't be cheaper than a Ruby but your CoA at H/S may end up being a lot lower than you expect.

I was curious about this myself, OP. You seem sure that you won't get aid from S, but they are pretty opaque with their calculation of parental contribution. If your folks have considerable debt, that should offset their assets and reduce what SLS considers as available to support you in law school. Unfortunately, being married isn't going to be a help. They will raise your total COA budget because you have a family, but they will also demand to know about your spouse's income and use that in calculating grant aid. If you say she's staying home, that's a different matter entirely.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Rarely does someone make a thread where the answer is so obvious. Congrats on the Ruby!

[gerard]

Since you're married with a kid on the way, I'm curious - how old are you? You might be old enough for parental contribution to mot count your financial aid calculations. Parental resources starting being phased out at 25 at HLS, and with dependents your demonstrated need may come out to be significantly higher than single students. It won't be cheaper than a Ruby but your CoA at H/S may end up being a lot lower than you expect.

Good point. I'm 26, so I might catch a break there. It would change the calculation if they offer significant grants, but even at max aid (~35k, right?), we're still looking at at least a 100k difference in COA. Definitely would make the choice a little less obvious. We'll see what they say.

[fliptrip]

Stanford's max is the total COA budget - their self help figure. By their current 15-16 numbers, this is about $45k. I know this because I've gotten max aid before.

[abl]

If you were pretty positive you wanted to do academia or something else (e.g., not biglaw) where the difference between Stanford and Chicago was more significant, this would be a closer question. It's really a decision only you can make, but this is a huge premium to pay (for Stanford) for some pretty vague and seemingly not-that-big interest in academia and clerkships. You'll be going hundreds of thousands of dollars more into debt to increase your chances at one or two outcomes you seem very uncertain about. (And for academia, we are talking about the difference between a small shot and a smaller shot.) Unless you care immensely about prestige, weather, or there's something else you haven't shared, and assuming you get no more aid from Stanford, it sounds to me like the Ruby is TCR for you.

[Budfox55]

How is it that your COA at Chicago is so much less than at UVA? Do you have a Ruby but not a Dillard? Assuming you have or will have or Dillard (or could negotiate to full tuition) at UVA, I think Charlottesville would be cheaper than Chicago, for a family. UVA has very strong clerkship placement rates, and might be a better fit for a conservative if that's you (just an educated guess based on what you wrote).

Interesting comment. For years, Chicago had a reputation for being the most politically conservative of the top law schools. Is that no longer the case?

I know the OP said he doesn't care much ideologically, but theres a study (at work so don't feel like taking the time to search for it) that looked at the political ideologies of lawyers and also examined the ideologies of law schools and different tiers of law schools. The whole t-14 is pretty liberal, but Duke was the most conservative followed by UVA which kind of makes sense given the greater percentage of southerners in their student bodies. I believe Chicago was the most conservative out of HYSCCN, but not by much.

[pterodactyls]

I know in some other disciplines, the University of Chicago is known historically for being conservative. Google "freshwater economics."

[heythatslife]

Since you're married with a kid on the way, I'm curious - how old are you? You might be old enough for parental contribution to mot count your financial aid calculations. Parental resources starting being phased out at 25 at HLS, and with dependents your demonstrated need may come out to be significantly higher than single students. It won't be cheaper than a Ruby but your CoA at H/S may end up being a lot lower than you expect.

Good point. I'm 26, so I might catch a break there. It would change the calculation if they offer significant grants, but even at max aid (~35k, right?), we're still looking at at least a 100k difference in COA. Definitely would make the choice a little less obvious. We'll see what they say.

Well the way HLS aid works is you have to take a minimum amount of loan (around 45k*) before you get grant. A single student's budget is 80k roughly, which is why max grant for them usually comes out to 35k. A student with dependents will have a higher budget, so the awarded aid may potentially go well above 35k and even beyond the full tuition amount (for example, 1 child + 1 non-working spouse adds almost 30k to your need that HLS aid will cover; see this page, example #5). Obviously the aid package will depend on the specifics of your financial situation but I'm just saying you shouldn't dismiss H/S out of hand until you've seen the financial aid award.

*I'm using 2014-15 numbers which I'm familiar with.

[hdunlop]

FWIW 35K is not the max at SLS (though I'd think it's rare to go higher). The answer is surely the Ruby regardless, though, if the farthest west you'd figure to want is Colorado and in particular if you won't have biglaw or forgiveness for the loans.

[krads153]

This is a no brainer to me (Chicago), unless you come from money.

Even if he/she did, so what? It'd still make very little sense - that saved money could be invested elsewhere.

I guess, but if you have 10 million in the bank, then who really cares how you spend 300k over three years if you're making 300k a year on investments alone....although not rational, that's my personal opinion, depending on how wealthy you are.

I suppose to me that Yale's the only school to qualify for "spend the money if you're super wealthy" privilege even if you can go to a school like Chicago free.

For me, it'd probably be HYS, but that's it. And even then, I'd have to have like 10 million in the bank already...I wouldn't pay sticker debt for any law school - it's just not worth that kind of debt.

As for OP, Chicago is a lot cheaper than Palo Alto these days - so that's something else to consider. Going to law school with a family is pretty risky IMO if you're the main breadwinner, so that's another reason to take the Ruby here.

[Troianii]

Hey guys! I know there are a few threads like this out there, but if you have any input on my situation, I appreciate the feedback. If you have an opinion, I'd love to know why.

Schools:
- Stanford (total COA ~280K)
- Chicago (total COA ~50K)
I'll also include:
- Virginia (total COA ~90K) - Seems like a better fit for me than UChi and places well in fed clerkships, but probably not worth the extra money and drop in rank/placement
- Harvard - I see Stanford always beating H, but I'll include it just in case some people disagree

Financials:
I'm married and I've got a kid on the way (might explain why my COA estimates are a little higher than those of others). Not anticipating need-based aid from S due to parent's income (but I might get more aid during second or third year), but due to huge debt/weird financials, they can't really contribute (plus it's weird to expect parents to pay for their adult kid's law school education).

Career goals:
I'm from Denver and I love the mountain west. We've got tons of family ties in Colorado, so I anticipate spending a good chunk of my career in midlaw out here (or possibly government stuff, public interest, immigration). I'm interested in a federal clerkship (Stanford, I know), but I'm also pretty debt-averse, and I'm not sure the added probability is worth 200k+. I'm split on academia (sounds like a really cool job, but could be boring and the law prof crowd doesn't seem great), so paying a ton extra just to keep a door open seems dumb.

As you can probably tell, I'm leaning toward the Ruby. I just want to see if I'm way off base here. If you do choose the Ruby, is there an amount of grant aid that would change your choice to Stanford? How much?

Thanks guys.

Sorry, I voted after skimming but didn't see all the specifics. You have a family, and are interested in a federal clerkship - that changes things, and because those are obviously important to you, Chicago is an easy first choice.

I'd just suggest trying to call the other institutions, explaining your offers and circumstance, and maybe they'll budge. Then if they budge enough, you could call Chicago and get them to offer more. At this point, all you'd be losing is some time.

Congrats and good luck!

[daedalus2309]

you could call Chicago and get them to offer more.

I know this is well-intentioned but this is hilarious.

[Troianii]

you could call Chicago and get them to offer more.

I know this is well-intentioned but this is hilarious.

Well I've heard of some cases where people were able to successfully negotiate scholarships in the top schools. Still haven't heard any cases of people being blacklisted for asking...

Basic point - there is no harm in trying. Even if it's unlikely to work, no good reason not to ask.

[landshoes]

They're not going to go above the Ruby, it's a full ride + living stipend.

[ticklemesilly]

you could call Chicago and get them to offer more.

I know this is well-intentioned but this is hilarious.

Lol can you imagine the financial aid office's reaction? I'm sure it has been done before by some audacious 0L.

[Troianii]

They're not going to go above the Ruby, it's a full ride + living stipend.

lol, ok I missed something then haha. nvm

[jbagelboy]

I find it pretty TLS-lolsworthy that 12 anonymous silent people voted HLS--more than Stanford--when Op made it clear he didn't consider it a contender.