Chicago/Penn/Berkeley Forum

[WheninLaw]

Great - you spent 1-2 years longer paying off loans but you get a diploma from a school that you're most proud of for the rest of your life. If you can get the opportunity to immerse yourself in a school culture and city that really interests you - you should strongly consider that.

You are a dangerous 0L. This is terrible advice and should be avoided like the plague.

And sorry, we're not going to ignore cost because OP is not concerned about it. That's the point - OP should be. We don't "ignore rankings" and help someone pick between Cooley and John Marshal.

She has received some very sage advice in this thread. Yours is not.

Ignored/unwanted advice doesn't seem all that sage.

You really don't get it, and that is terrifying.

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

If cost isn't an issue there really isn't a wrong answer, but I think the worst choice is Berkeley, because your west-coast roots plus the pedigree of the degree you'll get from C or P will outweigh going to Berkeley come the time you want to lateral to CA.

Your goals will probably change (regarding clerking), especially depending on your 1L grades. Go to the place you feel like you fit in the most + best clerking stats + best employment stats. P crushes biglaw (so does C) but C crushes clerking (compared to P).

As an aside - with the caveat that I know nothing about your economic background - it is a terrible for the average person to go to a school like P or C on sticker. You'd work in biglaw for 5 years just to pay off your debt and be back to where you were when you went to school 8 years before. Whereas you can still "easily" get biglaw from a place like NU or another t14 without paying anywhere near as much and then use that money to buy a house, start a family, travel, and so on.

[Tls2016]

I have never met a California granola person in biglaw. Be very careful about assuming you will be happy if culture is so important.

Do you know anything about biglaw or what type of law you want to practice, you don't sound like an NYC clerk than biglaw person.

Not worrying about money is foolish. Not many people are rich enough to not care about $200,000. And if you are that rich, you probably wouldn't be waiting to hear about money.

[Tls2016]

I went to NYU for undergrad and got into Berkeley. I'm seriously considering Berkeley because after living in NYC for 7 years, I'm ready for a change - even if it's only for 3 years - and despite thinking NYC is the best city in the world.
I think you should consider allowing yourself the opportunity to try something new.

I agree with you 100% that school should not be predominately about cost. I'm not rich or even well off and cost would still be the last factor when considering a school.
Great - you spent 1-2 years longer paying off loans but you get a diploma from a school that you're most proud of for the rest of your life. If you can get the opportunity to immerse yourself in a school culture and city that really interests you - you should strongly consider that.

Consider these 4 factors

School Culture - Chicago because it has the strongest academic culture (if you're into that)
School Name - Penn or Chicago. Penn has the Ivy brand but Chi is considered a better school
School Ranking (Law/National/International) - (Chi/Chi/Berkeley)
School Location - Totally up to you

1. Chi
2. Penn
3. Berkeley

P.S.

Anyone who keeps bringing up cost when the OP clearly says to ignore it is completely useless and annoying. Clearly $ is relevant but teh OP hasn't heard back about his/her financial awards and is asking for an opinion based on something other than that. You guys act like if you got into Harvard and a full ride at Fordham you would consider cost at all - so if you can't manage to wrap your head around something other than the mighty dollar, don't bother trolling.

This isn't undergrad admissions for some high school junior. This is professional school and the only important consideration is employment stats relevant to your goals and cost.

[jbagelboy]

I went to NYU for undergrad and got into Berkeley. I'm seriously considering Berkeley because after living in NYC for 7 years, a change would be good- even if it's only for 3 years - and despite believing NYC is the best city in the world.
Consider allowing yourself the opportunity to try something new.

I agree 100% that school should not be predominately about cost. I'm not rich or even well off and cost would still be the last factor when considering a school.
Great - you spent 1-2 years longer paying off loans but you get a diploma from a school that you're most proud of for the rest of your life. If you can get the opportunity to immerse yourself in a school culture and city that really interests you - you should strongly consider that.

Consider these 4 factors

School Culture - Chicago because it has the strongest academic culture (if you're into that)
School Name - Penn or Chicago. Penn is Ivy brand but Chi is considered a better school
School Ranking (Law/National/International) - (Chi/Chi/Berkeley)
School Location - Totally up to you

1. Chi
2. Penn
3. Berkeley

P.S.

Anyone who keeps bringing up cost when the OP clearly says to ignore it is completely useless and annoying.Obv $ is relevant but the OP hasn't heard back about her financial awards and is asking for an opinion based on something other than that. You guys act like if you got into Harvard and a full ride at Fordham you would consider cost at all - so if you can't manage to wrap your head around something other than the mighty dollar, don't bother trolling.

This is awful
You're basically a closet commercial magazine survey shill / shitboomer radio

[orangered]

If cost isn't an issue there really isn't a wrong answer, but I think the worst choice is Berkeley, because your west-coast roots plus the pedigree of the degree you'll get from C or P will outweigh going to Berkeley come the time you want to lateral to CA.

Your goals will probably change (regarding clerking), especially depending on your 1L grades. Go to the place you feel like you fit in the most + best clerking stats + best employment stats. P crushes biglaw (so does C) but C crushes clerking (compared to P).

As an aside - with the caveat that I know nothing about your economic background - it is a terrible for the average person to go to a school like P or C on sticker. You'd work in biglaw for 5 years just to pay off your debt and be back to where you were when you went to school 8 years before. Whereas you can still "easily" get biglaw from a place like NU or another t14 without paying anywhere near as much and then use that money to buy a house, start a family, travel, and so on.

The pedigree of the degree you'll get from C or P will NOT outweigh a degree from Berkeley in California. These schools are peers; each does better than the others in its region and roughly the same elsewhere (including NYC). None of these schools "crush" the others. The three schools are equally good for NYC biglaw, but Berkeley has the advantage of being better in case OP returns to CA. Also, the clerking distinction is a non-sequitur because OP never mentioned interest in that and should not go to any of these schools with the expectation of clerking.

[WheninLaw]

If cost isn't an issue there really isn't a wrong answer, but I think the worst choice is Berkeley, because your west-coast roots plus the pedigree of the degree you'll get from C or P will outweigh going to Berkeley come the time you want to lateral to CA.

Your goals will probably change (regarding clerking), especially depending on your 1L grades. Go to the place you feel like you fit in the most + best clerking stats + best employment stats. P crushes biglaw (so does C) but C crushes clerking (compared to P).

As an aside - with the caveat that I know nothing about your economic background - it is a terrible for the average person to go to a school like P or C on sticker. You'd work in biglaw for 5 years just to pay off your debt and be back to where you were when you went to school 8 years before. Whereas you can still "easily" get biglaw from a place like NU or another t14 without paying anywhere near as much and then use that money to buy a house, start a family, travel, and so on.

The pedigree of the degree you'll get from C or P will NOT outweigh a degree from Berkeley in California. These schools are peers; each does better than the others in its region and roughly the same elsewhere (including NYC). None of these schools "crush" the others. The three schools are equally good for NYC biglaw, but Berkeley has the advantage of being better in case OP returns to CA. Also, the clerking distinction is a non-sequitur because OP never mentioned interest in that and should not go to any of these schools with the expectation of clerking.

OP actually begins with wanting to clerk, although I agree with you generally.

[krads153]

If cost isn't an issue there really isn't a wrong answer, but I think the worst choice is Berkeley, because your west-coast roots plus the pedigree of the degree you'll get from C or P will outweigh going to Berkeley come the time you want to lateral to CA.

Your goals will probably change (regarding clerking), especially depending on your 1L grades. Go to the place you feel like you fit in the most + best clerking stats + best employment stats. P crushes biglaw (so does C) but C crushes clerking (compared to P).

As an aside - with the caveat that I know nothing about your economic background - it is a terrible for the average person to go to a school like P or C on sticker. You'd work in biglaw for 5 years just to pay off your debt and be back to where you were when you went to school 8 years before. Whereas you can still "easily" get biglaw from a place like NU or another t14 without paying anywhere near as much and then use that money to buy a house, start a family, travel, and so on.

The pedigree of the degree you'll get from C or P will NOT outweigh a degree from Berkeley in California. These schools are peers; each does better than the others in its region and roughly the same elsewhere (including NYC). None of these schools "crush" the others. The three schools are equally good for NYC biglaw, but Berkeley has the advantage of being better in case OP returns to CA. Also, the clerking distinction is a non-sequitur because OP never mentioned interest in that and should not go to any of these schools with the expectation of clerking.

OP actually begins with wanting to clerk, although I agree with you generally.

OP probably won't get a clerkship out of any of these, so problem solved.

[jbagelboy]

If cost isn't an issue there really isn't a wrong answer, but I think the worst choice is Berkeley, because your west-coast roots plus the pedigree of the degree you'll get from C or P will outweigh going to Berkeley come the time you want to lateral to CA.

Your goals will probably change (regarding clerking), especially depending on your 1L grades. Go to the place you feel like you fit in the most + best clerking stats + best employment stats. P crushes biglaw (so does C) but C crushes clerking (compared to P).

As an aside - with the caveat that I know nothing about your economic background - it is a terrible for the average person to go to a school like P or C on sticker. You'd work in biglaw for 5 years just to pay off your debt and be back to where you were when you went to school 8 years before. Whereas you can still "easily" get biglaw from a place like NU or another t14 without paying anywhere near as much and then use that money to buy a house, start a family, travel, and so on.

The pedigree of the degree you'll get from C or P will NOT outweigh a degree from Berkeley in California. These schools are peers; each does better than the others in its region and roughly the same elsewhere (including NYC). None of these schools "crush" the others. The three schools are equally good for NYC biglaw, but Berkeley has the advantage of being better in case OP returns to CA. Also, the clerking distinction is a non-sequitur because OP never mentioned interest in that and should not go to any of these schools with the expectation of clerking.

OP actually begins with wanting to clerk, although I agree with you generally.

OP probably won't get a clerkship out of any of these, so problem solved.

Lol. This is silly. These are top programs. You might as well say you won't likely get a clerkship going to law school at all. I agree entirely that saying "I want to clerk" as an 0L is a very poor reason to select a school since you have no idea what it means, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[rpupkin]

OP probably won't get a clerkship out of any of these, so problem solved.

Lol. This is silly. These are top programs. You might as well say you won't likely get a clerkship going to law school at all. I agree entirely that saying "I want to clerk" as an 0L is a very poor reason to select a school since you have no idea what it means, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Krads didn't say "it doesn't happen"; he said it "probably won't" happen. He's right, of course—it probably won't.

I don't know what recent clerkship placement stats are, but choosing Chicago "because clerkships"—when it places like 15% of its grads into clerkships while Penn/Boalt place like 10%—seems a little silly. Like a lot of factors, it's fine to use it as a tie breaker, but it probably shouldn't play a major role in the the OP's decision.

[WheninLaw]

OP probably won't get a clerkship out of any of these, so problem solved.

Lol. This is silly. These are top programs. You might as well say you won't likely get a clerkship going to law school at all. I agree entirely that saying "I want to clerk" as an 0L is a very poor reason to select a school since you have no idea what it means, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Krads didn't say "it doesn't happen"; he said it "probably won't" happen. He's right, of course—it probably won't.

I don't know what recent clerkship placement stats are, but choosing Chicago "because clerkships"—when it places like 15% of its grads into clerkships while Penn/Boalt place like 10%—seems a little silly. Like a lot of factors, it's fine to use it as a tie breaker, but it probably shouldn't play a major role in the the OP's decision.

TBH, I think all four of us are saying the same thing.

[jbagelboy]

OP probably won't get a clerkship out of any of these, so problem solved.

Lol. This is silly. These are top programs. You might as well say you won't likely get a clerkship going to law school at all. I agree entirely that saying "I want to clerk" as an 0L is a very poor reason to select a school since you have no idea what it means, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Krads didn't say "it doesn't happen"; he said it "probably won't" happen. He's right, of course—it probably won't.

I don't know what recent clerkship placement stats are, but choosing Chicago "because clerkships"—when it places like 15% of its grads into clerkships while Penn/Boalt place like 10%—seems a little silly. Like a lot of factors, it's fine to use it as a tie breaker, but it probably shouldn't play a major role in the the OP's decision.

TBH, I think all four of us are saying the same thing.

Yup. Yay empty content.

[melekal]

where's nyu

at equal cost, chi
then penn
then berk

Haven't heard back from NYU yet, but New York is a huge draw. Would you say that NYU is more competitive than Chi or Penn for biglaw? I've been getting the impression that of NYC schools, Columbia is a biglaw feeder while NYU leans more PI.
(Going to try and ride out the Columbia WL, but with a 167 LSAT it's borderline.)

[WheninLaw]

where's nyu

at equal cost, chi
then penn
then berk

Haven't heard back from NYU yet, but New York is a huge draw. Would you say that NYU is more competitive than Chi or Penn for biglaw? I've been getting the impression that of NYC schools, Columbia is a biglaw feeder while NYU leans more PI.
(Going to try and ride out the Columbia WL, but with a 167 LSAT it's borderline.)

Chicago does better, but marginally so.

[krads153]

where's nyu

at equal cost, chi
then penn
then berk

Haven't heard back from NYU yet, but New York is a huge draw. Would you say that NYU is more competitive than Chi or Penn for biglaw? I've been getting the impression that of NYC schools, Columbia is a biglaw feeder while NYU leans more PI.
(Going to try and ride out the Columbia WL, but with a 167 LSAT it's borderline.)

I work at an NYC firm (i have some exposure to hiring) and I think Columbia/NYU are more openly sought after than Chicago/Penn/Berkeley at least from what I can tell based on offer to callback ratios at least at my firm...that said, before you make a decision based on location, unless you're rich, you should probably just decide based on how much scholarship money you're getting. NYC is a very expensive place, and a lot of people who live here come from money - they aren't just taking out 300k loans to live here.....

[snm263]

I went to NYU for undergrad and got into Berkeley. I'm seriously considering Berkeley because after living in NYC for 7 years, a change would be good- even if it's only for 3 years - and despite believing NYC is the best city in the world.
Consider allowing yourself the opportunity to try something new.

I agree 100% that school should not be predominately about cost. I'm not rich or even well off and cost would still be the last factor when considering a school.
Great - you spent 1-2 years longer paying off loans but you get a diploma from a school that you're most proud of for the rest of your life. If you can get the opportunity to immerse yourself in a school culture and city that really interests you - you should strongly consider that.

Consider these 4 factors

School Culture - Chicago because it has the strongest academic culture (if you're into that)
School Name - Penn or Chicago. Penn is Ivy brand but Chi is considered a better school
School Ranking (Law/National/International) - (Chi/Chi/Berkeley)
School Location - Totally up to you

1. Chi
2. Penn
3. Berkeley

P.S.

Anyone who keeps bringing up cost when the OP clearly says to ignore it is completely useless and annoying.Obv $ is relevant but the OP hasn't heard back about her financial awards and is asking for an opinion based on something other than that. You guys act like if you got into Harvard and a full ride at Fordham you would consider cost at all - so if you can't manage to wrap your head around something other than the mighty dollar, don't bother trolling.

This is awful
You're basically a closet commercial magazine survey shill / shitboomer radio

Funny, I was just answering the question that the OP asked, and somehow despite all the badmouthing I was the only person who answered the question that was asked. A fact confirmed directly by the OP

[rpupkin]

Funny, I was just answering the question that the OP asked, and somehow despite all the badmouthing I was the only person who answered the question that was asked. A fact confirmed directly by the OP

Given that it took you two months to write that response, i was expecting something better. 145.

[snm263]

Funny, I was just answering the question that the OP asked, and somehow despite all the badmouthing I was the only person who answered the question that was asked. A fact confirmed directly by the OP

Given that it took you two months to write that response, i was expecting something better. 145.

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner 3rd tier, I know you missed me. I had more important things to do like deciding between Northwestern, Cornell, UMich, the 95k from Georgetown, oh and of course the 120k from Berkeley (to mention a few). Didn't mean to disappoint you with FACTS ONLY. Wasn't trying to be creative and would tots screenshot the private thank you message from the OP saying I answered the question exactly but that would require me caring a lot more than I do. Better?

[rpupkin]

Funny, I was just answering the question that the OP asked, and somehow despite all the badmouthing I was the only person who answered the question that was asked. A fact confirmed directly by the OP

Given that it took you two months to write that response, i was expecting something better. 145.

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner 3rd tier, I know you missed me. I had more important things to do like deciding between Northwestern, Cornell, UMich, the 95k from Georgetown, oh and of course the 120k from Berkeley (to mention a few).

I'm going to go lick my wounds. Hey mods: can you provide some special indicator--maybe below the Joined/Posts info--that signifies when a poster is particularly elite? Had I realized that this guy got into NU, Cornell, and GULC, I would've steered clear. This is too much prestigious firepower for me to handle.

[emkay625]

Funny, I was just answering the question that the OP asked, and somehow despite all the badmouthing I was the only person who answered the question that was asked. A fact confirmed directly by the OP

Given that it took you two months to write that response, i was expecting something better. 145.

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner 3rd tier, I know you missed me. I had more important things to do like deciding between Northwestern, Cornell, UMich, the 95k from Georgetown, oh and of course the 120k from Berkeley (to mention a few). Didn't mean to disappoint you with FACTS ONLY. Wasn't trying to be creative and would tots screenshot the private thank you message from the OP saying I answered the question exactly but that would require me caring a lot more than I do. Better?

Trying to impress posters on a board that is named Top Law Schools with those acceptances is an interesting technique that will not succeed.

[curry1]

Funny, I was just answering the question that the OP asked, and somehow despite all the badmouthing I was the only person who answered the question that was asked. A fact confirmed directly by the OP

Given that it took you two months to write that response, i was expecting something better. 145.

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner 3rd tier, I know you missed me. I had more important things to do like deciding between Northwestern, Cornell, UMich, the 95k from Georgetown, oh and of course the 120k from Berkeley (to mention a few). Didn't mean to disappoint you with FACTS ONLY. Wasn't trying to be creative and would tots screenshot the private thank you message from the OP saying I answered the question exactly but that would require me caring a lot more than I do. Better?

Wow, this guy got into a T14 with money! What a genius!

[jbagelboy]

Funny, I was just answering the question that the OP asked, and somehow despite all the badmouthing I was the only person who answered the question that was asked. A fact confirmed directly by the OP

Given that it took you two months to write that response, i was expecting something better. 145.

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner 3rd tier, I know you missed me. I had more important things to do like deciding between Northwestern, Cornell, UMich, the 95k from Georgetown, oh and of course the 120k from Berkeley (to mention a few).

I'm going to go lick my wounds. Hey mods: can you provide some special indicator--maybe below the Joined/Posts info--that signifies when a poster is particularly elite? Had I realized that this guy got into NU, Cornell, and GULC, I would've steered clear. This is too much prestigious firepower for me to handle.

Pfft like you'd ever get into cornell or gulc bro. Who are we kidding

[TheGoat18]

Is rpupkin's outrageous anti-Penn bias just subtle trolling or is he for real

[somethingElse]

Is rpupkin's outrageous anti-Penn bias just subtle trolling or is he for real

Not a trolling bone in rpupkin's body as far as I know.

[rpupkin]

Is rpupkin's outrageous anti-Penn bias just subtle trolling or is he for real

I haven't done any anti-Penn trolling in this thread. In general, I don't troll when someone has a legit "choosing a law school" question.

But if we're talking about rankings and sub-tiers--whether those rankings/tiers are being assigned by a magazine or by a thread of TLS posters based on selected employment data--then, yeah, I'll troll hard. Same goes for the Vault rankings.