T14 at Sticker for PI Forum

[twenty]

Before people start getting mad at each other, my above comment was specific to OP, but general in the sense that a lot of people are coming from the same perspective: mediocre (although not bad) LSAT/GPA combo, interest in "public interest" and the vague interest in a decent standard of living. I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm ragging on OP - I'm not - but OP, like many PI applicants, won't have an idea of what they actually want to be doing until they start 1L. Which is totally fine, but then you have no business taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans.

The vast majority of public interest/government jobs are "low prestige." I put it in quotes because it's kind of a misnomer, since many of those jobs are far more competitive than biglaw. "Low prestige" public interest jobs do not care about your grades or your school name. Maybe TTT kids are at a slight disadvantage and T14 kids are at a slight advantage, but the keyword there is "slight." The only thing those jobs are going to care about is your dedication to the field and your practical experience while in law school. That is to say, Harris County DA's office is going to hire a median University of Houston graduate that did both summers and an externship at the DA's office over a Harvard grad with law review and clerkship-level grades who has never set foot in Texas.

I have, on several occasions, recommended individuals take out sticker loans to cover a top school. Those individuals are not OP.

Okay, now having said all that:

So, I'm in a similar situation, and it isn't so easy if you don't know where you want to practice. My s/o will be pursuing a graduate degree after I finish my J.D., and I'm geographically flexible to go wherever he goes. So, I'd like to go for free and not have debt, but I also don't want to end up wherever he's going and then not have a degree/alum network that can connect me to employment and opportunities.

I write kind of abrasively sometimes, so please forgive me if I come across as condescending, it's not intentional.

You're not at all in a similar situation as OP; the only commonality you have is that you both want to do some sort of public interest. You also have a (potential? sorry, this was unclear) spouse in a graduate program, which will massively change the analysis here. Does your SO have loans of their own? Will your SO be making a significant amount of money when they graduate? Will your SO have an idea of where they'll be working upon entry into graduate school (i.e, like law school or dentistry school) or only know after they graduate (i.e, PhD programs, med school)? Will you qualify for IBR because of old federal loans, or will you be forced into REPAYE? Based on some of these factors, you may be paying a much higher amount towards your law degree through LRAP than you anticipate.

Furthermore, degree/alumni networking has very little influence on most public interest/government jobs. Alumni networking is going to help you with for-profit smaller firms, and degree prestige is going to help you with biglaw and prestigious PI jobs. If those things aren't (necessarily) you, then those two factors should not influence where you attend school. Based on the limited information I have (which I will grant you, is very limited), I would recommend a regional school on a full ride even more strongly than I would for OP.

If you're stuck trying to break into public interest post-graduation, which is certainly not an enviable position to be in from the start, it is infinitely harder if you have tons of debt. If you are equally likely to have a best case scenario from either (1) your SO going to grad school in the city you go to school in, vs. (2) your SO going to graduate school in the city you find a job in; but your worst case scenario is materially different in impact: (1) you're unemployed in an unfamiliar city with a regional degree and no debt, vs. (2) you're unemployed in an unfamiliar city with a top degree and lots of debt -- it is unquestioningly better to be in the first.

[03152016]

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[Toodle-loo]

but OP, like many PI applicants, won't have an idea of what they actually want to be doing until they start 1L. Which is totally fine, but then you have no business taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans.

Obviously you weren't referring to me here, but to clarify just in case: I definitely know generally what I'm interested in, as I have 3-4 years of experience working in those kinds of jobs.

...Harris County DA's office is going to hire a median University of Houston graduate that did both summers and an externship at the DA's office over a Harvard grad with law review and clerkship-level grades who has never set foot in Texas.

Again just to clarify about my own situation, I do not want to be in a county job. 0%. If I'm doing government, I want to do state/federal.

I write kind of abrasively sometimes, so please forgive me if I come across as condescending, it's not intentional.

You're not at all in a similar situation as OP; the only commonality you have is that you both want to do some sort of public interest. You also have a (potential? sorry, this was unclear) spouse in a graduate program, which will massively change the analysis here. Does your SO have loans of their own? Will your SO be making a significant amount of money when they graduate? Will your SO have an idea of where they'll be working upon entry into graduate school (i.e, like law school or dentistry school) or only know after they graduate (i.e, PhD programs, med school)? Will you qualify for IBR because of old federal loans, or will you be forced into REPAYE? Based on some of these factors, you may be paying a much higher amount towards your law degree through LRAP than you anticipate.

Furthermore, degree/alumni networking has very little influence on most public interest/government jobs. Alumni networking is going to help you with for-profit smaller firms, and degree prestige is going to help you with biglaw and prestigious PI jobs. If those things aren't (necessarily) you, then those two factors should not influence where you attend school. Based on the limited information I have (which I will grant you, is very limited), I would recommend a regional school on a full ride even more strongly than I would for OP.

If you're stuck trying to break into public interest post-graduation, which is certainly not an enviable position to be in from the start, it is infinitely harder if you have tons of debt. If you are equally likely to have a best case scenario from either (1) your SO going to grad school in the city you go to school in, vs. (2) your SO going to graduate school in the city you find a job in; but your worst case scenario is materially different in impact: (1) you're unemployed in an unfamiliar city with a regional degree and no debt, vs. (2) you're unemployed in an unfamiliar city with a top degree and lots of debt -- it is unquestioningly better to be in the first.

Personally having read through this, you don't come off as abrasive - your willingness to look into each detail makes you one of the most helpful people I've encountered on TLS amidst 1-sentence advice to "RETAKE" or "NO DEBT".

Spouse is not YET in a grad program, but will 99.9% barring any weird or unexpected circumstance be pursuing an MBA as soon as I graduate from school. We won't be going at the same time, he will start as soon as I finish and I will theoretically look for a job near where he is going to school. I then need to be able to move with him for the job he will get after HE gets a grad degree. (He's going to be pulling way more cash than me over the long run, so we prioritize his geographical "needs" over mine). We together have 30k in undergrad (we've both graduated already) and he will have roughly 100k for his MBA. My law school loans will likely be REPAYE if IBR is no longer available for new loans. When he graduates, he will likely make a decent bit of money, as he is fluent in Chinese. We're estimating maybe 80k floor to start, not including bonuses etc. and salary growth after a few years.

I wouldn't so much be breaking into PI after graduation, I plan to pursue it over summers and whatnot while I'm *in* school - not sure if that matters. Also the possibility of PSLF is the only reason I'm considering a T14 with debt at all - the debt would scare me shitless otherwise.

Again, I really appreciate that you were detailed. Sorry again for stealing OPs thunder - will probably start my own thread later in the day/weekend.

[cron1834]

Sorry again for stealing OPs thunder - will probably start my own thread later in the day/weekend.

Yeah, this was my point. We're all really impressed at how married you are, but shitting on good advice because of your own situation (which isn't THAT unique) was unnecessary ITT.

[Toodle-loo]

Sorry again for stealing OPs thunder - will probably start my own thread later in the day/weekend.

Yeah, this was my point. We're all really impressed at how married you are, but shitting on good advice because of your own situation (which isn't THAT unique) was unnecessary ITT.

I never asked anyone to be impressed, and I wasn't "shitting" on anything.

Sorry you perceived it that way.

Edit: I really only said anything at all because I recognize that there are people in this thread who can't be as flexible as just "go where you want to work!" because I've seen a lot of people on here have that general issue. I mentioned my marriage only to explain WHY I'm not flexible.

OP, if your location is flexible and you know where you want to practice, 10/10 twenty's advice was on-point.

[Tls2016]

but OP, like many PI applicants, won't have an idea of what they actually want to be doing until they start 1L. Which is totally fine, but then you have no business taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans.

Obviously you weren't referring to me here, but to clarify just in case: I definitely know generally what I'm interested in, as I have 3-4 years of experience working in those kinds of jobs.

...Harris County DA's office is going to hire a median University of Houston graduate that did both summers and an externship at the DA's office over a Harvard grad with law review and clerkship-level grades who has never set foot in Texas.

Again just to clarify about my own situation, I do not want to be in a county job. 0%. If I'm doing government, I want to do state/federal.

I write kind of abrasively sometimes, so please forgive me if I come across as condescending, it's not intentional.

You're not at all in a similar situation as OP; the only commonality you have is that you both want to do some sort of public interest. You also have a (potential? sorry, this was unclear) spouse in a graduate program, which will massively change the analysis here. Does your SO have loans of their own? Will your SO be making a significant amount of money when they graduate? Will your SO have an idea of where they'll be working upon entry into graduate school (i.e, like law school or dentistry school) or only know after they graduate (i.e, PhD programs, med school)? Will you qualify for IBR because of old federal loans, or will you be forced into REPAYE? Based on some of these factors, you may be paying a much higher amount towards your law degree through LRAP than you anticipate.

Furthermore, degree/alumni networking has very little influence on most public interest/government jobs. Alumni networking is going to help you with for-profit smaller firms, and degree prestige is going to help you with biglaw and prestigious PI jobs. If those things aren't (necessarily) you, then those two factors should not influence where you attend school. Based on the limited information I have (which I will grant you, is very limited), I would recommend a regional school on a full ride even more strongly than I would for OP.

If you're stuck trying to break into public interest post-graduation, which is certainly not an enviable position to be in from the start, it is infinitely harder if you have tons of debt. If you are equally likely to have a best case scenario from either (1) your SO going to grad school in the city you go to school in, vs. (2) your SO going to graduate school in the city you find a job in; but your worst case scenario is materially different in impact: (1) you're unemployed in an unfamiliar city with a regional degree and no debt, vs. (2) you're unemployed in an unfamiliar city with a top degree and lots of debt -- it is unquestioningly better to be in the first.

Personally having read through this, you don't come off as abrasive - your willingness to look into each detail makes you one of the most helpful people I've encountered on TLS amidst 1-sentence advice to "RETAKE" or "NO DEBT".

Spouse is not YET in a grad program, but will 99.9% barring any weird or unexpected circumstance be pursuing an MBA as soon as I graduate from school. We won't be going at the same time, he will start as soon as I finish and I will theoretically look for a job near where he is going to school. I then need to be able to move with him for the job he will get after HE gets a grad degree. (He's going to be pulling way more cash than me over the long run, so we prioritize his geographical "needs" over mine). We together have 30k in undergrad (we've both graduated already) and he will have roughly 100k for his MBA. My law school loans will likely be REPAYE if IBR is no longer available for new loans. When he graduates, he will likely make a decent bit of money, as he is fluent in Chinese. We're estimating maybe 80k floor to start, not including bonuses etc. and salary growth after a few years.

I wouldn't so much be breaking into PI after graduation, I plan to pursue it over summers and whatnot while I'm *in* school - not sure if that matters. Also the possibility of PSLF is the only reason I'm considering a T14 with debt at all - the debt would scare me shitless otherwise.

Again, I really appreciate that you were detailed. Sorry again for stealing OPs thunder - will probably start my own thread later in the day/weekend.

Is the reason he isn't doing an MBA first if his career is the priority that he needs work experience? It would be much easier for you if he figured out his plan first. Could you wait a year while he applies? I'm only asking because waiting might be best for both of you long term. Other than that, listen to twenty. My concern is you breaking into PI without any ties to the area. It's not impossible, but PI hiring is competitive.

[Toodle-loo]

Is the reason he isn't doing an MBA first if his career is the priority that he needs work experience? It would be much easier for you if he figured out his plan first. Could you wait a year while he applies? I'm only asking because waiting might be best for both of you long term. Other than that, listen to twenty. My concern is you breaking into PI without any ties to the area. It's not impossible, but PI hiring is competitive.

Hit the nail on the head. He needs 3-5 years of WE before he can apply to programs and be competitive. We just graduated a year ago, so he needs 2-4 more years, roughly. I would have to wait 2 years for him to START and then 2 years for him to FINISH, and I would have to wait to apply that following December after he accepted a job offer in a region, so 5 total years before I could begin my JD if that's what we went with.

We'd love to wait, but I can't make enough cash to support us through his MBA on my degree alone, and 5 years is a lot of lost income (think the difference between 15k/year and 60k/year or more for 5 years.)

[twenty]

If I'm doing government, I want to do state/federal.

Drawing from this:

I'd like to either be in PI (think Government, AUSA/Federal criminal things, some larger non-profits potentially, etc.) or a small/mid-sized firm that primarily represents individuals in criminal/family law proceedings (google Joe Cheshire Raleigh NC for an idea of the type of firm).

1) It is incredibly rare for a local US Attorney's office to hire new grads - most (all?) offices have a strict policy of only hiring experienced lawyers. The one or two offices that don't are insanely competitive - to put it this way, you have a better chance of getting an A3 clerkship in a competitive district than you do getting AUSA out of law school.

That said, once you have experience your school doesn't seem to matter much/at all. A fairly well-known poster on this forum went from a T1 -> post-graduate experience -> AUSA, and that's not at all uncommon. It's still tough to get in, but no one cares if you went to Harvard or not at that point.

2) DOJ, the more open side of federal criminal things, gives a major preference to people with good grades from HYSCCN + Berkeley. You are obviously free to take risks as you see fit, but I personally would not tell someone to attend Duke, Georgetown, or UMich if they wanted DOJ honors.

3) Most non-profits couldn't care less if you went to Harvard or Hamline. The non-profits that do care (see generally: ACLU) pretty much don't take anyone lower than NYU. There is a steep, steep drop off between NYU and the lower T14.

4) I'd like to take a second and draw your attention to the law firm you mentioned:

http://www.cheshireparker.com/our-lawyers

Here's where these folks went to school:

California Western School of Law
University of South Carolina
University of Miami School of Law
UNC
Wake Forest
Campbell University School of Law
UNC
Wake Forest Law School
Georgetown
University of Tennessee
UNC

Boomer attorneys, etc, etc. but keep that this is law across the majority of the United States. It didn't really occur to me as a 0L either, but now I see it a lot more clearly - most non-biglaw employers truly do not care about where you went to school. When I say "don't care" - it's not that they're indifferent, it's that they're easily impressed. "Wow, UNC? That's a really good school!" vs. "Wow, Georgetown? That's a really good school!"

To kind of expand on Brut's post a little more, I've recommended T14 at sticker to two types of people (barring people with GI bill or whatever):

I graduated two years ago and I could use your help in making a decision. I'm trying to decide between USC with a full scholarship and Columbia at sticker. I would be financing the sticker debt with loans, and if I attended Columbia, I would use their LRAP. I am 100% set on working in environmental law; I've been working for an environmental non-profit for two years and I want to work for [prestigious environmental non-profit] as an attorney when I graduate. I have about 100k in savings which I guess I could use during bar prep or if I'm in between jobs or something. I have no interest in biglaw, if I was offered a biglaw job, I would turn it down. I'm okay with working anywhere, but I'd like to ideally work in DC because that's where [prestigious environmental non-profit] is located. Which should I do?

Second:

I've been out of school for about four years, and I'm trying to decide between Northwestern at sticker and Loyola with a full ride and a top 70% scholarship stipulation. The job market is really bad for liberal arts majors, and the most prestigious job I've had was an admissions outreach coordinator (basically glorified telemarketer) for my undergrad. My GPA is sub 3.0, and I don't think I'll be able to get a better score than my 173. I have no clue what I want to do in law other than anything is better than wasting half a decade fucking around with odd jobs because I can't seem to get past my undergrad GPA hurdle. I'd be thrilled to have a full time job that paid me 60k a year, let alone 160k a year. My big reservation to attending Loyola is I abhor Los Angeles and I really don't want to practice in SoCal.

I hope I don't take anything out of context, but here goes:

We won't be going at the same time, he will start as soon as I finish and I will theoretically look for a job near where he is going to school. I then need to be able to move with him for the job he will get after HE gets a grad degree.

If this is true, then you will not be doing this:

I plan to pursue it over summers and whatnot while I'm *in* school - not sure if that matters.

Here's why it doesn't matter: Let's say you go to UChicago, and you get your dream job in DOJ honors. It is physically impossible for you to be anywhere else but DC for that job. Husband is going to go to Columbia Business School for his MBA. If you're going to turn down DOJ honors to be with your husband in New York, you are functionally unemployed. Therefore, your job search actually starts post-graduation, which is as soon as he starts his MBA. It doesn't matter if you go to UChicago or UNC, you're in this same position pretty much no matter what. The difference is, if you go to UChicago, you are limited to exclusively PI jobs in NYC, because if you decide to work at a small to midsize firm, you won't be eligible for PSLF/LRAP.

[cheese]

I want to pursue a career in public interest and am wondering if a T14 at sticker would be worth it in that scenario. I wouldn't consider paying sticker anywhere but HYS otherwise, but looking into various schools LRAPs it seems like some of them are pretty good. I'm obviously not interested in being rich, especially right out of law school, but I am wondering whether LRAPs might make a decent standard of living possible.

Edit: my GPA is 3.6 and LSAT is 166, though i plan on retaking in June and applying next cycle.

what do you want to do? pi could mean anything
ada in some rural county?
competitive pd office?
prestigious pi?
fed gov agency?

I'm still at the research stage of my career plans and haven't applied to school yet, but I'd like to pursue a career with the federal government. Labor/employment, immigration, civil rights, all of these areas appeal to me. I understand a position with a federal agency is probably very competiveit and difficult to secure. Could you be more specific about what "prestigious pi" would be?

Also, relatedly, do people going the PI route often take summer associate positions during law school?

Thanks to all who replied, this was helpful.

[cheese]

Before people start getting mad at each other, my above comment was specific to OP, but general in the sense that a lot of people are coming from the same perspective: mediocre (although not bad) LSAT/GPA combo, interest in "public interest" and the vague interest in a decent standard of living. I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm ragging on OP - I'm not - but OP, like many PI applicants, won't have an idea of what they actually want to be doing until they start 1L. Which is totally fine, but then you have no business taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans.

I can be more specific about standard of living: I don't care about a 160K salary but I don't want to be fucked with debt until I die. I'm wondering if LRAPs can actually mitigate debt loads the way it seems, on the face of it, they are meant to. I understand programs vary from school to school.

As for the LSAT/GPA combo, I wouldn't apply with it -- I'm not going to apply at all unless I do significantly better on the LSAT, and I have a better idea of what I'd do with a law degree.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

This has been debated to death. Do a little searching and you'll find comments from very informed posters. My takeaway is that this is plausible, but very risky, as most of the programs are tied to a) gov programs and b) (implicitly) the overall economic health of the school.

I wouldn't aim for this unless student debt suddenly becomes dischargeable in BK court, personally.

This.

Unless you are looking to commit financial suicide, do not take out massive loans for PI.

I don't think you guys get how many trust fund kids do PI - they are not in the same boat as you. If you want to do PI, pick a good regional school and take a full ride in a region in which you want to work.

[cron1834]

Yeah, I didn't realize how many rich kids would be in law school. It makes sense, but I didn't anticipate it somehow.

[zot1]

For OP: if you want to do federal government, where you go to school matters. However, given how competitive the honors programs are, I wouldn't recommend doing sticker for it. You would still have to do well at your school and there's really no guarantee of that no matter how smart you may be.

PI takes a lot of commitment from the get go (doing an SA over the summer would literally bar you from getting a job in PI) and there's no guarantee you'll get a paying job from it. Again, very high risk.

For poster planning around husband: dude, you're kind of screwed there. I think given the geographic considerations (you have to get licensed in the state you practice), the easiest route would be for you to get a job and then for your husband to try to get a job in that area since it might be easier for him to work his job around you than the other way around. But the truth is that there's no way of knowing.