Penn State Law Forum

[ddoomm]

Interesting point of view! And I agree, as it is, Dickinson is not going to be shut down.

[A@M_or_bust]

I think you guys are missing the point of what Big Zuck is saying. He said it is more "shut down-worthy than attending-worthy" and the school "shouldn't exist". The message is not "don't attend because it will likely be shut down!", the message is more of "don't attend because the school has weak employment prospects and is most likely a waste of your time!"

[BigZuck]

I don't think either will be shut down.

I don't know which one is worse but whichever one it is that school doesn't need to exist. There's already enough law schools in the state/country, no need for another one.

Main point is don't go to either without modest career goals and a burning desire to work in PA long term.

[Tree656]

I'm in a similar boat as OP (I was given a near full tuition scholarship to Penn State, but I have also been accepted to much better schools with lower scholarships, and still I am waiting on other school replies) but was not really looking to work in PA. My main reason for even considering Penn at this moment is the scholarship money and the massive alumni network. What I want to know is if anyone has any experience with the challenge of making use of the PSU alumni network outside of the state, how successful they have been, and how possible is it?

Basically, being able to get through law school nearly debt free is the main selling point for going to PSU so I've been trying to figure out that if I were to choose this option (which I might not if I can still get better deals at better schools) then how strong or workable is the massive PSU alumni network to help me network and find work in another state outside (such as the Mid-West/West)?

[TexasENG]

Just received this email from Penn State Law... Doesn't look promising when they are trying to get you to shell out money to get a degree in something that requires a lot of attention to detail. Although I guess I had signed up by mistake since I thought they were Penn Law

This e-mail is a friendly reminder that you have registered for the Penn State Law Online Information Session, taking place tomorrow, Thursday, December 16th at 6:00pm EST. You can add the event to your Outlook calendar by openning the attachment and/or you can add it to your Google Calendar by clicking here.



To access the online information session, please click here. If you have trouble with the link or accessing the online session, please reach out directly to me at the e-mail address below.



Making sure we respect everybody’s time, we will begin promptly at 12pm and the session will last roughly 45 minutes to an hour. If you are not able to make the 12pm start, do not worry, join us when you can and we will be able to go back and cover things you have missed at a later time.



I hope all is well and I look forward to speaking with you soon.

[BigZuck]

I'm in a similar boat as OP (I was given a near full tuition scholarship to Penn State, but I have also been accepted to much better schools with lower scholarships, and still I am waiting on other school replies) but was not really looking to work in PA. My main reason for even considering Penn at this moment is the scholarship money and the massive alumni network. What I want to know is if anyone has any experience with the challenge of making use of the PSU alumni network outside of the state, how successful they have been, and how possible is it?

Basically, being able to get through law school nearly debt free is the main selling point for going to PSU so I've been trying to figure out that if I were to choose this option (which I might not if I can still get better deals at better schools) then how strong or workable is the massive PSU alumni network to help me network and find work in another state outside (such as the Mid-West/West)?

It cannot be overstated how poor of an idea it would be to go to Penn State if you want to work in the west or Midwest. People think that alumni networks matter but by and large that isn't going to matter.

Go to local schools or tippy top schools. Don't go to random regional schools that don't place into your target region.

[Clemenceau]

I'm in a similar boat as OP (I was given a near full tuition scholarship to Penn State, but I have also been accepted to much better schools with lower scholarships, and still I am waiting on other school replies) but was not really looking to work in PA. My main reason for even considering Penn at this moment is the scholarship money and the massive alumni network. What I want to know is if anyone has any experience with the challenge of making use of the PSU alumni network outside of the state, how successful they have been, and how possible is it?

Basically, being able to get through law school nearly debt free is the main selling point for going to PSU so I've been trying to figure out that if I were to choose this option (which I might not if I can still get better deals at better schools) then how strong or workable is the massive PSU alumni network to help me network and find work in another state outside (such as the Mid-West/West)?

It cannot be overstated how poor of an idea it would be to go to Penn State if you want to work in the west or Midwest. People think that alumni networks matter but by and large that isn't going to matter.

Go to local schools or tippy top schools. Don't go to random regional schools that don't place into your target region.

Also, penn State might have a big alumni network as a university, but the law school most certainly doesn't. That law school has been a part of penn state for like a few years. Many psu grads probably have no idea that there's a law school there.

[Clemenceau]

edit double post

[psu2016]

My main reason for even considering Penn at this moment is the scholarship money and the massive alumni network. What I want to know is if anyone has any experience with the challenge of making use of the PSU alumni network outside of the state, how successful they have been, and how possible is it?

Basically, being able to get through law school nearly debt free is the main selling point for going to PSU so I've been trying to figure out that if I were to choose this option (which I might not if I can still get better deals at better schools) then how strong or workable is the massive PSU alumni network to help me network and find work in another state outside (such as the Mid-West/West)?

This is 100% not how it works. The massive undergrad alumni network is not associated with the law school and relying on them to help you get a job is like blindly relying on OCI to get you a job without doing anything else - you would be absolutely delusional to place your eggs in that basket. The law school alumni network (especially from the UP campus, which hasn't been in existence that long) is small and fragmented, with most alums staying in PA, and some of them feeling disillusioned by the split to the point where they don't want anything to do with the school.

TLDR: It is not a reasonable idea to think you're going to use the PSU network to find work in another state.

[TexasENG]

Penn state law admissions are on a roll. After their completely incomprehensible fail email this morning someone realized that none of the dates and times made sense. So they resend the email with the day (Wednesday) matching the date (16th). But of course there is no acknowledgement that the earlier email was wrong and they still forget to correct the time mistakes (6pm vs 12pm). So there will likely be a third email correcting the first two mistakes

If you decide to go there good luck...

[psu2016]

Dickinson law in Carlisle isn't nearly this dysfunctional. I mean, there's the same PA problem, but we can at least do simple things like send internally consistent emails. You should check it out - you would very likely get a full ride from them, and you also still have whatever benefit you think the "Penn State" name would bring you. It's pretty much the same from either campus, which is not very much.

[sanjola]

The class of 2015 at Dickinson was around 65 and I know a bunch of people who have jobs and a bunch who don't. I'm in the class of 2016 (3L) and I have a biglaw gig lined up. (Free tuition with insanely low cost of living works out to a really sweet deal if you can swing it, but that's not typical). I know of about 4 people (out of 30) who are employed, and the good news is that everybody who has a job at this moment is going to be making mid six figures. The bad news is that everyone who is not going to be making six figures is still looking for a job.

Everybody you know will be making ~$500,000 right after graduation?

[yenisey]

psu2016 wrote:
Do I have a concrete reason to believe so? No. Do I have anecdotal evidence to support my hypothesis that Carlisle outperforms? Absolutely.

For one thing, Carlisle is "intentionally small." The maximum class size is 75, but the 2015 incoming class was only 64, and my (unified) class here is only 30. This means that fewer jobs are needed to employ Carlisle students (counterpoint: it also means that one or two un- or under-employed students will skew our statistics disproportionately). I've been in classes with Carlisle and UP Students and my experience has been that Carlisle students are far more employable. As a general rule, students who choose Carlisle are a little older, more mature, and more focused on their school work. Many of us have prior professional or military work experience. Carlisle is also about half an hour from Harrisburg (compare with 2 hours from UP), so we get more placements in Hbg. The "old school" alumni all graduated from the Carlisle campus since UP wasn't even built when they were in school, so, again, the theory is that such alumni favor Carlisle students. Finally, I've had experience with professors at both campuses, and it has been my experience that the Carlisle professors are MUCH better. Because we are such a small campus, they get to know you both professionally and personally (the torts professor has "small group" lunches with all the 1Ls at least once during the semester), so you get much better recommendations and job recommendations.

As between the two campuses, Carlisle is the absolute slam-dunk winner.

Are you serious? But the Top Law Schools-startclass tells another story. http://law-schools.startclass.com/compa ... -Dickinson

According to the webpage, UP ranks #59 while Dickinson collects a poor #200. And as for the employment rate, UP is better than Dickinson, 80.1% vs 74.3%.

However, in line with convetional wisdom, Dickinson began to operate more than 150 years ago while UP is pretty a newborn. It's probable that UP could not be set up unless Dickinson lends its reputation and faculty. It's unlikely that Dickinson is at a bizzare inferiority status. Perhaps there is an explanation: the Dickinson law school is "moving to" the University Park main camus (http://lssse.indiana.edu/news_articles/ ... 1_2003.htm), which means that Dickinson resources, including of faculty, has been siphoned off to University Park. So Dickinson is bleeding pale.

[yenisey]

Being closer to DC makes absolutely no difference, you aren't getting a job in DC either way

The grim reality is that both schools are probably a lot closer to being shut down-worthy than attending-worthy (at the very least, whichever of the two is the worst shouldn't exist)

Don't go to either without a burning desire and reason to be in Pennsylvania (and only Pennsylvania) long term.

Dickinson Law has been around since 1834, I don't think it will be shut down anytime soon. Dickinson graduates, a ton of whom are practicing in the Susquehanna Valley, are unhappy with the affiliation with Penn State. Their perception is that Dickinson is better, period, whether there is data to support it or not.

Someone is telling a story in the diametricall direction. http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/201 ... -dickinson

[geraffe]

My main reason for even considering Penn at this moment is the scholarship money and the massive alumni network. What I want to know is if anyone has any experience with the challenge of making use of the PSU alumni network outside of the state, how successful they have been, and how possible is it?

Basically, being able to get through law school nearly debt free is the main selling point for going to PSU so I've been trying to figure out that if I were to choose this option (which I might not if I can still get better deals at better schools) then how strong or workable is the massive PSU alumni network to help me network and find work in another state outside (such as the Mid-West/West)?

This is 100% not how it works. The massive undergrad alumni network is not associated with the law school and relying on them to help you get a job is like blindly relying on OCI to get you a job without doing anything else - you would be absolutely delusional to place your eggs in that basket. The law school alumni network (especially from the UP campus, which hasn't been in existence that long) is small and fragmented, with most alums staying in PA, and some of them feeling disillusioned by the split to the point where they don't want anything to do with the school.

TLDR: It is not a reasonable idea to think you're going to use the PSU network to find work in another state.

This thread is dead, but I want to chime in anyway to agree with the above, in case anyone's still considering PSU. When I was considering attending, everyone made sure to tell me how the Penn State name would provide a national network. Despite top 10%+LR, my "mass mails" to Chicago (strong ties), DC (somewhat regional ties) and North Carolina (basically no ties) were completely, utterly unsuccessful. That being said, I'm a PA native, went to Penn State knowing it was more than likely I'd only be able to get a job in PA, and overall like PSlaw. And of course it's not impossible to get jobs out of state, just agreeing that it's not easy.

Also FWIW the alumni that matter are the Dickinson (carlisle) alum, NOT the Penn State alum.....

[BigZuck]

Were your mass mails targeted at Penn State alums or was it the general mass blasting that the hive generally thinks of for the term "Mass mail"?

[Nachoo2019]

My main reason for even considering Penn at this moment is the scholarship money and the massive alumni network. What I want to know is if anyone has any experience with the challenge of making use of the PSU alumni network outside of the state, how successful they have been, and how possible is it?

Basically, being able to get through law school nearly debt free is the main selling point for going to PSU so I've been trying to figure out that if I were to choose this option (which I might not if I can still get better deals at better schools) then how strong or workable is the massive PSU alumni network to help me network and find work in another state outside (such as the Mid-West/West)?

This is 100% not how it works. The massive undergrad alumni network is not associated with the law school and relying on them to help you get a job is like blindly relying on OCI to get you a job without doing anything else - you would be absolutely delusional to place your eggs in that basket. The law school alumni network (especially from the UP campus, which hasn't been in existence that long) is small and fragmented, with most alums staying in PA, and some of them feeling disillusioned by the split to the point where they don't want anything to do with the school.

TLDR: It is not a reasonable idea to think you're going to use the PSU network to find work in another state.

This thread is dead, but I want to chime in anyway to agree with the above, in case anyone's still considering PSU. When I was considering attending, everyone made sure to tell me how the Penn State name would provide a national network. Despite top 10%+LR, my "mass mails" to Chicago (strong ties), DC (somewhat regional ties) and North Carolina (basically no ties) were completely, utterly unsuccessful. That being said, I'm a PA native, went to Penn State knowing it was more than likely I'd only be able to get a job in PA, and overall like PSlaw. And of course it's not impossible to get jobs out of state, just agreeing that it's not easy.

Also FWIW the alumni that matter are the Dickinson (carlisle) alum, NOT the Penn State alum.....

Just to give some anecdotal evidence on this. I was speaking to an alum from the UP campus (granted he graduated in the 80s) who runs a successful business in CA and his reaction was "Oh, I didn't know we have a law school now. That's cool." which made me so much happier that I chose Dickinson.