My Thoughts on Full Ride vs T14 (includes spreadsheet) Forum

[abl]

This would be very useful if:

You built a spreadsheet to attempt to account for the marginal increase in outcomes from going to a better school. So, for example, how much does going to Georgetown instead of NW decrease your chances of biglaw+art III clerkship? That's a useful question, and should be the discount percentage that you need to apply to these financial aid questions.

If you build those sorts of comparisons into your calculation, and allow folks a wide degree of flexibility wrt what they compare, it'd be helpful to have a spreadsheet that quickly allows you to plug in your specific scholly numbers and see if your choice is financially justified assuming [x] years in biglaw. In other words, people should be able to do a heads-up comparison (or even better, a multiple-school comparison) that takes into account (1) increase in well-paying job likelihood, (2) different scholarship amounts, and (3) self-assessed expected time in biglaw.

I don't really know how to do fancy excel programming, but my bet is that this wouldn't be super hard to do. Bonus points if you base your calculations on a 3-year average of biglaw+art II. And hell, if this is too difficult to program, you can just program it assuming 4 years or something like that in biglaw.

These sorts of financial calculations obviously shouldn't be the end-all be-all of decision making, but this would be a pretty darn good way to start.

[Danger Zone]

Wow thanks for the useless analysis OP

[CanadianWolf]

OP: No one is being rude. Their just offering their thoughts on the matters raised in your original post in this thread. Don't leave this website as your thoughts & points are well worth debate or so many wouldn't be reading your thread.

Lymenheimer made a important point worth repeating: What if someone hates biglaw after 2 months. It happens quite often.

[BigZuck]

This would be very useful if:

You built a spreadsheet to attempt to account for the marginal increase in outcomes from going to a better school. So, for example, how much does going to Georgetown instead of NW decrease your chances of biglaw+art III clerkship? That's a useful question, and should be the discount percentage that you need to apply to these financial aid questions.

If you build those sorts of comparisons into your calculation, and allow folks a wide degree of flexibility wrt what they compare, it'd be helpful to have a spreadsheet that quickly allows you to plug in your specific scholly numbers and see if your choice is financially justified assuming [x] years in biglaw. In other words, people should be able to do a heads-up comparison (or even better, a multiple-school comparison) that takes into account (1) increase in well-paying job likelihood, (2) different scholarship amounts, and (3) self-assessed expected time in biglaw.

I don't really know how to do fancy excel programming, but my bet is that this wouldn't be super hard to do. Bonus points if you base your calculations on a 3-year average of biglaw+art II. And hell, if this is too difficult to program, you can just program it assuming 4 years or something like that in biglaw.

These sorts of financial calculations obviously shouldn't be the end-all be-all of decision making, but this would be a pretty darn good way to start.

Within the T14, you can't look at the job placement statistics and then quantify how much better one school is at placing into certain kinds of jobs. Or even if it's better at placing into those kinds of jobs.

Also people can't really gauge how long they will be in big law.

What you're proposing would be a waste of everyone's time IMO

[Danger Zone]

Lymenheimer made a important point worth repeating: What if someone hates biglaw after 2 months. It happens quite often.

CAN CONFIRM

[abl]

This would be very useful if:

You built a spreadsheet to attempt to account for the marginal increase in outcomes from going to a better school. So, for example, how much does going to Georgetown instead of NW decrease your chances of biglaw+art III clerkship? That's a useful question, and should be the discount percentage that you need to apply to these financial aid questions.

If you build those sorts of comparisons into your calculation, and allow folks a wide degree of flexibility wrt what they compare, it'd be helpful to have a spreadsheet that quickly allows you to plug in your specific scholly numbers and see if your choice is financially justified assuming [x] years in biglaw. In other words, people should be able to do a heads-up comparison (or even better, a multiple-school comparison) that takes into account (1) increase in well-paying job likelihood, (2) different scholarship amounts, and (3) self-assessed expected time in biglaw.

I don't really know how to do fancy excel programming, but my bet is that this wouldn't be super hard to do. Bonus points if you base your calculations on a 3-year average of biglaw+art II. And hell, if this is too difficult to program, you can just program it assuming 4 years or something like that in biglaw.

These sorts of financial calculations obviously shouldn't be the end-all be-all of decision making, but this would be a pretty darn good way to start.

Within the T14, you can't look at the job placement statistics and then quantify how much better one school is at placing into certain kinds of jobs. Or even if it's better at placing into those kinds of jobs.

Also people can't really gauge how long they will be in big law.

What you're proposing would be a waste of everyone's time IMO

You can draw some distinctions within the T14. I agree that the couple % differences between places like UVA and Berkeley are probably meaningless and don't justify additional $$. But that's not to say that none of those differences mean anything. I think we'd all also agree that there are meaningful differences reflected in these numbers between a school like NW and a school like WUSTL, and that the best answer for most folks is not always be to minimize debt, whatever the employment opportunity cost. I think we'd all also agree that it's not uncommon for a prospective student to be choosing between these two schools with more aid at WUSTL. How would this not be a useful tool in making that decision? Or, to put it a different way, what tool would do a better job of representing the strictly financial tradeoffs of a decision of this nature?

Just because things are difficult to do, or imperfect, doesn't mean that they're impossible or not worth thinking about. Sure, nobody can know with a high degree of accuracy exactly how many years they'll stay in biglaw, and I'd encourage anyone trying to do this sort of calculation to err on the side of being very cautious. But I do think that the average law student who enters law school planning on spending 2-3 years in biglaw spends less time ultimately in biglaw (probably years) than the average law student who enters law school wanting to spend 5-6 years or longer in biglaw. E.g., although I think folks are imperfect in making these sorts of guesses, I doubt their 0L estimates are pure noise. At some point, we need some way of determining when it makes sense for someone with primarily financial goals to pay [x] dollars more to go to a higher ranked school. The answer is obviously not "never" or "always," so in the soft middle--which is where everyone's decisions will live--having some sort of rooted basis for this decision is probably not a bad thing.

PS I think you can get a sense from my previous posts that I think that more people should be focused more on the non-financial benefits of certain legal jobs -- but that doesn't mean that the financial side of things doesn't matter. My primary caution with building a calculator of this nature is that folks would make this their entire decision--which would be a huge mistake. It may well be that someone who conservatively anticipates spending 3 years in biglaw is financially justified choosing NW over WUSTL at their particular COA difference, but that doesn't mean that it's the best decision for them.

tl;dr: don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Maybe a spreadsheet like I'm proposing wouldn't be perfect, and i'd be the first to say that such a calculation fails to account for some of the most important factors folks should consider in these decisions. But it'd be a heck of a lot more helpful than what the OP posted, and would be a useful tool for decision making.

[BigZuck]

I don't think the choice between attending NU vs WUSTL will ever be so close that something like this could tip the scales either way. It'll be a lot clearer than that.

Full disclosure: Your post was too long; therefore I did not read it. But something like (what I think) you're proposing would help draw out some fine distinctions between schools and help make close calls. That's artificially making everything seem to be a closer call than it is though. It's usually pretty cut and dry IMO and if it's a total toss up (for example, even cost of attendance at Duke and Cornell) then choosing based on a coin flip or which mascot you like better is probably just as good as choosing based on this hypothetical spreadsheet. Actually I think choosing based on mascots is a lot better. At least you'll get some joy whenever you see that big dumb loveable oversized-head bouncing around. The "better job placement" at Cornell instead of Duke (or vice-versa, whatever the hell it is over the period you're looking at) is pretty pointless I think.

tl;dr: Basing your decision on which (roughly equivalent) school is cheaper or that you prefer more or that is closer to your family or whatever is better than asping out over some excel spreadsheet data spews.

[abl]

I don't think the choice between attending NU vs WUSTL will ever be so close that something like this could tip the scales either way. It'll be a lot clearer than that.

Full disclosure: Your post was too long; therefore I did not read it. But something like (what I think) you're proposing would help draw out some fine distinctions between schools and help make close calls. That's artificially making everything seem to be a closer call than it is though. It's usually pretty cut and dry IMO and if it's a total toss up (for example, even cost of attendance at Duke and Cornell) then choosing based on a coin flip or which mascot you like better is probably just as good as choosing based on this hypothetical spreadsheet. Actually I think choosing based on mascots is a lot better. At least you'll get some joy whenever you see that big dumb loveable oversized-head bouncing around. The "better job placement" at Cornell instead of Duke (or vice-versa, whatever the hell it is over the period you're looking at) is pretty pointless I think.

tl;dr: Basing your decision on which (roughly equivalent) school is cheaper or that you prefer more or that is closer to your family or whatever is better than asping out over some excel spreadsheet data spews.

Ha, yea. Not sure we really disagree all that much. (Although I think there are real differences between Duke and Cornell--like the weather--far, far more important than mascot.)

[BigZuck]

I don't think the choice between attending NU vs WUSTL will ever be so close that something like this could tip the scales either way. It'll be a lot clearer than that.

Full disclosure: Your post was too long; therefore I did not read it. But something like (what I think) you're proposing would help draw out some fine distinctions between schools and help make close calls. That's artificially making everything seem to be a closer call than it is though. It's usually pretty cut and dry IMO and if it's a total toss up (for example, even cost of attendance at Duke and Cornell) then choosing based on a coin flip or which mascot you like better is probably just as good as choosing based on this hypothetical spreadsheet. Actually I think choosing based on mascots is a lot better. At least you'll get some joy whenever you see that big dumb loveable oversized-head bouncing around. The "better job placement" at Cornell instead of Duke (or vice-versa, whatever the hell it is over the period you're looking at) is pretty pointless I think.

tl;dr: Basing your decision on which (roughly equivalent) school is cheaper or that you prefer more or that is closer to your family or whatever is better than asping out over some excel spreadsheet data spews.

Ha, yea. Not sure we really disagree all that much. (Although I think there are real differences between Duke and Cornell--like the weather--far, far more important than mascot.)

I guess my main point is that while computers are great for "What are my chances?" they aren't nearly as good for "Choosing a law school." The ol noggin computer is sufficient for computing relative worth or value for your own personal situation. Intangible things such as personal preference or geographic preference can't really be properly considered by Excel and given how important those things are, the noggin computer should be the only place where value calculations are carried out IMO.

And really, in all the choosing threads I have seen over the years there has been very, very few that were a close call. Usually it's a no brainer moneywise, or personal preference/situation should dominate (or the person should retake, which is like 97% of the cases )

[AT9]

This isn't really a decision you can quantify because: (1) your personal values and goals may change over time (that T14 degree may give you meaning as an 0L/1L, but for how long?), and (2) there are too many variables involved to predict the future (do you get biglaw, how long do you stay, where do you end up otherwise, etc.).

Just assess your career/geographic goals as best as you can at this stage, flesh out the statistics and your options, and make a judgment call based on those factors and the intrinsic value of attending school A vs. school B. There's no correct, quantifiable answer that you can apply to everyone.

Edit: also yes, re-take is usually the preliminary answer anyway (was for me and I ignored it - don't be like no-retake me).

[barkschool]

justified assuming [x] years in biglaw.

Please tell many people that biglaw is assumed even in t14 kthx

[dabigchina]

aren't you a senior at a big4?

they should be making more than 35k a year.

[ihenry]

OP, what you have been looking at is probably not indicative of the opinion of the entire law school cohort (or even that in top law schools). This is not a diverse community as you might expect, and those who disagree with the general opinion have already chosen to leave (me myself soon probably included). You are facing a group of like minded people who, after signing up and getting their initial admission questions resolved, choose to stay and give advice on this kind of matters and eventually fight with you in this thread. In fact, among the not many people I know IRL or beyond this board that go to law school, despite knowing all the COL and employment and salary and stuff, all out them drew out their savings and went to the highest ranked school they can. There are two who were admitted with scholly, but after the first year gave it up and transferred to a higher ranked school (within T14) at sticker. Part of the reason is for international brand name recognition (they are of international backgrounds, so things may vary), another is that law school is once in a lifetime experience and is well worth throwing some money at. I mean, I definitely do not discount the validity of the advice to take the scholarship and reduce expenses, which surely may apply to a great number of people, but if there is a simple, unanimous and one-size-fits-all consensus, it is just not healthy, and does not show enough respect to different and nuanced backgrounds, financial situations and personal expectations and preferences.

[Hikikomorist]

OP, what you have been looking at is probably not indicative of the opinion of the entire law school cohort (or even that in top law schools). This is not a diverse community as you might expect, and those who disagree with the general opinion have already chosen to leave (me myself soon probably included). You are facing a group of like minded people who, after signing up and getting their initial admission questions resolved, choose to stay and give advice on this kind of matters and eventually fight with you in this thread. In fact, among the not many people I know IRL or beyond this board that go to law school, despite knowing all the COL and employment and salary and stuff, all out them drew out their savings and went to the highest ranked school they can. There are two who were admitted with scholly, but after the first year gave it up and transferred to a higher ranked school (within T14) at sticker. Part of the reason is for international brand name recognition (they are of international backgrounds, so things may vary), another is that law school is once in a lifetime experience and is well worth throwing some money at. I mean, I definitely do not discount the validity of the advice to take the scholarship and reduce expenses, which surely may apply to a great number of people, but if there is a simple and unanimous consensus, it is just not healthy, and does not show enough respect to different and nuanced backgrounds, financial situations and personal expectations and preferences.

On the other hand, every IRL law student I've gotten to know at my school turned down at least one higher-ranked law school, presumably for financial reasons.

[ihenry]

OP, what you have been looking at is probably not indicative of the opinion of the entire law school cohort (or even that in top law schools). This is not a diverse community as you might expect, and those who disagree with the general opinion have already chosen to leave (me myself soon probably included). You are facing a group of like minded people who, after signing up and getting their initial admission questions resolved, choose to stay and give advice on this kind of matters and eventually fight with you in this thread. In fact, among the not many people I know IRL or beyond this board that go to law school, despite knowing all the COL and employment and salary and stuff, all out them drew out their savings and went to the highest ranked school they can. There are two who were admitted with scholly, but after the first year gave it up and transferred to a higher ranked school (within T14) at sticker. Part of the reason is for international brand name recognition (they are of international backgrounds, so things may vary), another is that law school is once in a lifetime experience and is well worth throwing some money at. I mean, I definitely do not discount the validity of the advice to take the scholarship and reduce expenses, which surely may apply to a great number of people, but if there is a simple and unanimous consensus, it is just not healthy, and does not show enough respect to different and nuanced backgrounds, financial situations and personal expectations and preferences.

On the other hand, every IRL law student I've gotten to know at my school turned down at least one higher-ranked law school, presumably for financial reasons.

What I was saying that there is no one-size-fits-all advice. I would surely hesitate if I have to owe other people a life-altering sum of money in order to go to school, but if me or my family have the savings to contribute to all or a good portion of the fees that would be a different story. Giving advice straightforward without asking for nuanced details is sometimes inadequate IMO. And there is no school that is worth or not worth the sticker on its own merits. Even sticker at Cooley can be justified, in a greater number of circumstances that people here have thought of.

[BigZuck]

OP, what you have been looking at is probably not indicative of the opinion of the entire law school cohort (or even that in top law schools). This is not a diverse community as you might expect, and those who disagree with the general opinion have already chosen to leave (me myself soon probably included). You are facing a group of like minded people who, after signing up and getting their initial admission questions resolved, choose to stay and give advice on this kind of matters and eventually fight with you in this thread. In fact, among the not many people I know IRL or beyond this board that go to law school, despite knowing all the COL and employment and salary and stuff, all out them drew out their savings and went to the highest ranked school they can. There are two who were admitted with scholly, but after the first year gave it up and transferred to a higher ranked school (within T14) at sticker. Part of the reason is for international brand name recognition (they are of international backgrounds, so things may vary), another is that law school is once in a lifetime experience and is well worth throwing some money at. I mean, I definitely do not discount the validity of the advice to take the scholarship and reduce expenses, which surely may apply to a great number of people, but if there is a simple and unanimous consensus, it is just not healthy, and does not show enough respect to different and nuanced backgrounds, financial situations and personal expectations and preferences.

On the other hand, every IRL law student I've gotten to know at my school turned down at least one higher-ranked law school, presumably for financial reasons.

What I was saying that there is no one-size-fits-all advice. I would surely hesitate if I have to owe other people a life-altering sum of money in order to go to school, but if me or my family have the savings to contribute to all or a good portion of the fees that would be a different story. Giving advice straightforward without asking for nuanced details is sometimes inadequate IMO. And there is no school that is worth or not worth the sticker on its own merits. Even sticker at Cooley can be justified, in a greater number of circumstances that people here have thought of.

No

This is dumb

I mean, you're just going to say that's the hivemind talking but it really is just me, as an individual with free will, saying that this is dumb

Just stop dude

[krads153]

OP has clearly never worked biglaw - SEVEN years? Really?

[abl]

justified assuming [x] years in biglaw.

Please tell many people that biglaw is assumed even in t14 kthx

? What?

[charlesriver]

Interesting point. This post provides a good starting point to talk about investment. When talking about PV, FV, please think about interest rate and compounding period. Your whole point is based on numbers, so let's be accurate about it. Second, like others suggested, do you need to go to Harvard to get biglaw? If not, the only difference in terms of money will be the debt.

Of course, there are other factors that Harvard can offer while GULC can't. I think it is safe to say that you will get a better chance of getting into WLRK from Harvard than GULC.