Dear O'Ls Forum

[lillawyer2]

Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

If you don't land biglaw you are very, very, unlikely to get a 100k salary from any legal job, especially straight out of law school. Have you heard of the bimodal salary distribution for lawyers?

The big law (100+ attorney-firm) + federal clerkship number for GULC in 2014 is 303, out of 589 (GULC has huge classes). That's about 51%, so closer to a coin-flip chance than a guarantee. I'm sure not everyone who went to GULC wanted biglaw, but it's still far from a guarantee.

I'm aiming for Columbia/NYU/Cornell are the odds still 50/50?

No. Your odds out of Columbia and NYU are closer to 90%, and Cornell closer to 80%, but a lot of variables are in play. The bigger point is that having a high salary doesn't mean very much when you're burdened with way higher debt, and that often the debt can be way more constricting than the marginal opportunities you receive going to a "better" program.

A graduating student from a T6 school who borrows to pay tuition and living costs will run themselves upwards of $300,000 in debt, which will take five or six years to pay off while living a religiously abstinent lifestyle. At a large firm, which is the median outcome from many T14 schools, you'll work 80-100 hours per week and most of your after-tax paycheck will go to rent and loan payments, so you won't enjoy the fruits of those labors. By your fourth or fifth year, if you survive that far emotionally, physically, and financially, before you've even finished paying off your debt, more likely than not you'll be forced to leave your firm and take a much lower paying position in the private or public sector, while still finishing your debt payments. By the time you've paid off all your debt, you'll have saved less and make less than someone who went to a strong regional school for free and took a lower paying entry salary, or better yet, who didn't go to law school at all.

The alternative is you default on your student loans, which many Americans face today, and move back home with your parents.

Thanks! I plan to get into Columbia. I will kill my student loan debt undergrad by August. I will stay at home in my nyc apt. My father will foot the bill (cross fingers). I want at least a partial merit skolly. I'm going to work my ass off to get it. If I get no skolly my mom will help me with the cost and the rest will be loans. I WILL not attend law school if my end debt amounts to over 50k! I'm thrifty enough now. I scrap every penny and will continue to do so to meet these financial goals.

I thought even about risking my health and working in a smoking bar as a waitress bc they make close to 4k per week. It's so tempting, especially with how expensive nyc is and law school is.

Also why are some forced to leave their big law job?

If you actually think you can make 4k a week waiting tables you go do that. I don't care if they're smoking meth in your face.

It's not an accurate figure. Waitressing wages/tips are criminally overestimated in manhattan, I don't know why. You might make $4k one week during a hot season, when you have a lot of shifts, and you get really lucky. It averages out to lot less than that year round.

True. However, this usually stands for waitresses at restaurants and also depends on what restaurant. I never seen an average salary for Manhattan waitresses. I do know there is a great disparity.

Anyway at the place I currently work, the lounge makes 4k take home. It's more during the winter as it is a winter hang out. No one likes to smoke in doors in the summer. You need membership to partake for the most part. So yes the figure isn't estimated for my establishment. Cocktail waitresses in Manhattan for clubs, and elite lounges do not skim on the cheddar

[Clearly]

Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

If you don't land biglaw you are very, very, unlikely to get a 100k salary from any legal job, especially straight out of law school. Have you heard of the bimodal salary distribution for lawyers?

The big law (100+ attorney-firm) + federal clerkship number for GULC in 2014 is 303, out of 589 (GULC has huge classes). That's about 51%, so closer to a coin-flip chance than a guarantee. I'm sure not everyone who went to GULC wanted biglaw, but it's still far from a guarantee.

I'm aiming for Columbia/NYU/Cornell are the odds still 50/50?

No. Your odds out of Columbia and NYU are closer to 90%, and Cornell closer to 80%, but a lot of variables are in play. The bigger point is that having a high salary doesn't mean very much when you're burdened with way higher debt, and that often the debt can be way more constricting than the marginal opportunities you receive going to a "better" program.

A graduating student from a T6 school who borrows to pay tuition and living costs will run themselves upwards of $300,000 in debt, which will take five or six years to pay off while living a religiously abstinent lifestyle. At a large firm, which is the median outcome from many T14 schools, you'll work 80-100 hours per week and most of your after-tax paycheck will go to rent and loan payments, so you won't enjoy the fruits of those labors. By your fourth or fifth year, if you survive that far emotionally, physically, and financially, before you've even finished paying off your debt, more likely than not you'll be forced to leave your firm and take a much lower paying position in the private or public sector, while still finishing your debt payments. By the time you've paid off all your debt, you'll have saved less and make less than someone who went to a strong regional school for free and took a lower paying entry salary, or better yet, who didn't go to law school at all.

The alternative is you default on your student loans, which many Americans face today, and move back home with your parents.

Thanks! I plan to get into Columbia. I will kill my student loan debt undergrad by August. I will stay at home in my nyc apt. My father will foot the bill (cross fingers). I want at least a partial merit skolly. I'm going to work my ass off to get it. If I get no skolly my mom will help me with the cost and the rest will be loans. I WILL not attend law school if my end debt amounts to over 50k! I'm thrifty enough now. I scrap every penny and will continue to do so to meet these financial goals.

I thought even about risking my health and working in a smoking bar as a waitress bc they make close to 4k per week. It's so tempting, especially with how expensive nyc is and law school is.

Also why are some forced to leave their big law job?

If you actually think you can make 4k a week waiting tables you go do that. I don't care if they're smoking meth in your face.

yea its cocktail waitress. it is in a fancy area of manhattan. its cigar smoking. its very bad for your health, I'm sure you know second hand smoke is a thing

You know what else is bad for health? Big law.

Kidding aside, keep researching big law, hiring, and average career lengths. I suspect you're still underinformed

[lillawyer2]

If you don't land biglaw you are very, very, unlikely to get a 100k salary from any legal job, especially straight out of law school. Have you heard of the

The big law (100+ attorney-firm) + federal clerkship number for GULC in 2014 is 303, out of 589 (GULC has huge classes). That's about 51%, so closer to a coin-flip chance than a guarantee. I'm sure not everyone who went to GULC wanted biglaw, but it's still far from a guarantee.[/quote]


I'm aiming for Columbia/NYU/Cornell are the odds still 50/50?[/quote]

No. Your odds out of Columbia and NYU are closer to 90%, and Cornell closer to 80%, but a lot of variables are in play. The bigger point is that having a high salary doesn't mean very much when you're burdened with way higher debt, and that often the debt can be way more constricting than the marginal opportunities you receive going to a "better" program.

A graduating student from a T6 school who borrows to pay tuition and living costs will run themselves upwards of $300,000 in debt, which will take five or six years to pay off while living a religiously abstinent lifestyle. At a large firm, which is the median outcome from many T14 schools, you'll work 80-100 hours per week and most of your after-tax paycheck will go to rent and loan payments, so you won't enjoy the fruits of those labors. By your fourth or fifth year, if you survive that far emotionally, physically, and financially, before you've even finished paying off your debt, more likely than not you'll be forced to leave your firm and take a much lower paying position in the private or public sector, while still finishing your debt payments. By the time you've paid off all your debt, you'll have saved less and make less than someone who went to a strong regional school for free and took a lower paying entry salary, or better yet, who didn't go to law school at all.

The alternative is you default on your student loans, which many Americans face today, and move back home with your parents.[/quote]

Thanks! I plan to get into Columbia. I will kill my student loan debt undergrad by August. I will stay at home in my nyc apt. My father will foot the bill (cross fingers). I want at least a partial merit skolly. I'm going to work my ass off to get it. If I get no skolly my mom will help me with the cost and the rest will be loans. I WILL not attend law school if my end debt amounts to over 50k! I'm thrifty enough now. I scrap every penny and will continue to do so to meet these financial goals.

I thought even about risking my health and working in a smoking bar as a waitress bc they make close to 4k per week. It's so tempting, especially with how expensive nyc is and law school is.

Also why are some forced to leave their big law job?[/quote]
If you actually think you can make 4k a week waiting tables you go do that. I don't care if they're smoking meth in your face.[/quote]

yea its cocktail waitress. it is in a fancy area of manhattan. its cigar smoking. its very bad for your health, I'm sure you know second hand smoke is a thing[/quote]
You know what else is bad for health? Big law.

Kidding aside, keep researching big law, hiring, and average career lengths. I suspect you're still underinformed[/quote]

What do lawyers usually do after big law

[packer_22]

Real talk though: is there a way to go to law school that is with crippling debt? Even a full ride will put you 60k in debt (3 years of living expenses).

I got a Butler to Columbia (one of the best outcomes), and I'm still looking at 150-160k in debt. That is still pretty much as bad as 300k. You can't live your life for YEARS afterwards. Is there a way to avoid it, or is it full ride or bust? (or learn to live with debt?)

[jbagelboy]

Real talk though: is there a way to go to law school that is with crippling debt? Even a full ride will put you 60k in debt (3 years of living expenses).

I got a Butler to Columbia (one of the best outcomes), and I'm still looking at 150-160k in debt. That is still pretty much as bad as 300k. You can't live your life for YEARS afterwards. Is there a way to avoid it, or is it full ride or bust? (or learn to live with debt?)

1) $150k is not as bad as $300k. It's less than half as bad, because the interest grows much slower. You can dig yourself out a lot faster and get a mortgage earlier.

2) Unless you find yourself borrowing for literally everything and living in an expensive apartment, Butler recipients don't wind up with $160k in debt. You can get a $1000-1100/mo place if you're price conscious. You'll make $30-36k as a summer associate, and more if you get a 1L SA. Feel free to PM for more financial details.

3) The debt will still suck, but unless you're from a wealthy background, there isn't much way around it. If you get a full ride at Penn or something, go there, but the Butler is a strong option and worth the cost IMO, depending on alternatives.

[Tyler_Durden]

PLEASE listen to the advise on these boards, the people giving you advise are actually in/have gone through law school and know what they are talking about. I started at a strong regional with a decent scholly this fall but now really really really wish i had studied harder for the lsat and was going to a better school. Once you start you will realize that most people in your class are as determined, if not more, than you to be at the top of the class and put in as much, if not more, effort as you. You HAVE to assume you'll be around median wherever you go as there isn't really much you can do to guarantee you'll be at the top of your class. You will realize this when you start school. It's a hell of a lot easier to score a couple points higher on the lsat and go to a better school then finishing at the top of your class in law school. I'm three weeks in and really regret not taking the advise on these boards more seriously. So PLEASE do yourselves a favor and score as high as you possibly can on the lsat before you decide to enter school. Why? The school you go to plays a huge role in what kind of job opportunities are available to you. Enough has been mentioned on these boards about big law and you should be well aware that outside the T15 your chances of getting big law are virtually non-existent. I am talking about working at a small/mid-sized firm, DA/PD office, public interest, any sort of government job, in house for a corp, ect. The better your school, the better your options. Don't start out at a disadvantage by going to a lesser school. Again, it's a lot easier to do better on the lsat and go to a better school than to do really well and finish at the top of your class in law school. That's it

I think the better advice would be: DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL! DO SOMETHING ELSE WITH YOUR LIFE! THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER CAREERS, WHEREIN YOU CAN MAKE JUST AS MUCH MONEY, IF NOT MORE, AND LEAD A MORE FULFILLING LIFE!

-3L with a respectable Job

[lillawyer2]

PLEASE listen to the advise on these boards, the people giving you advise are actually in/have gone through law school and know what they are talking about. I started at a strong regional with a decent scholly this fall but now really really really wish i had studied harder for the lsat and was going to a better school. Once you start you will realize that most people in your class are as determined, if not more, than you to be at the top of the class and put in as much, if not more, effort as you. You HAVE to assume you'll be around median wherever you go as there isn't really much you can do to guarantee you'll be at the top of your class. You will realize this when you start school. It's a hell of a lot easier to score a couple points higher on the lsat and go to a better school then finishing at the top of your class in law school. I'm three weeks in and really regret not taking the advise on these boards more seriously. So PLEASE do yourselves a favor and score as high as you possibly can on the lsat before you decide to enter school. Why? The school you go to plays a huge role in what kind of job opportunities are available to you. Enough has been mentioned on these boards about big law and you should be well aware that outside the T15 your chances of getting big law are virtually non-existent. I am talking about working at a small/mid-sized firm, DA/PD office, public interest, any sort of government job, in house for a corp, ect. The better your school, the better your options. Don't start out at a disadvantage by going to a lesser school. Again, it's a lot easier to do better on the lsat and go to a better school than to do really well and finish at the top of your class in law school. That's it

I think the better advice would be: DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL! DO SOMETHING ELSE WITH YOUR LIFE! THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER CAREERS, WHEREIN YOU CAN MAKE JUST AS MUCH MONEY, IF NOT MORE, AND LEAD A MORE FULFILLING LIFE!

-3L with a respectable Job

Have you failed to consider that the other jobs that also make as much money would not be more fulfilling, because a) those individuals don't pose a strong interest in those fields and b) the discussion is about law school.

It's like someone saying how do I go about making and continuously having a satisfying breakfast? and someone responds eat lunch.

You have a respectable job, but yet you make it seem that no one else will have that, most people will be unhappy or your respectable job is still shit without providing a basis for this understanding. I mean it's like saying don't eat cheeseburgers, but you sit in my face and eat one and won't tell me why I shouldn't be eating one.

[lillawyer2]

Where do most lawyers go after big law? Why r they forced out? Is it because they aren't good?

[jbagelboy]

Where do most lawyers go after big law? Why r they forced out? Is it because they aren't good?

Its a highly leveraged business model. Almost anyone who makes it to year 5 at a large firm is "good" at their job. They just for whatever reason are not partnership material.

[OLitch]

OP wanted to drop out of LS before it even started. Keep that in mind when you consider their advice.

[lillawyer2]

Where do most lawyers go after big law? Why r they forced out? Is it because they aren't good?

Its a highly leveraged business model. Almost anyone who makes it to year 5 at a large firm is "good" at their job. They just for whatever reason are not partnership material.

So, if not partnership material, are they laid off/encouraged to quit?

Where do they go after? Another experienced/affluent firm and try to make partner their? I don't imagine that their careers are suffering.

[star fox]

Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

If you don't land biglaw you are very, very, unlikely to get a 100k salary from any legal job, especially straight out of law school. Have you heard of the bimodal salary distribution for lawyers?

The big law (100+ attorney-firm) + federal clerkship number for GULC in 2014 is 303, out of 589 (GULC has huge classes). That's about 51%, so closer to a coin-flip chance than a guarantee. I'm sure not everyone who went to GULC wanted biglaw, but it's still far from a guarantee.

I'm aiming for Columbia/NYU/Cornell are the odds still 50/50?

No. Your odds out of Columbia and NYU are closer to 90%, and Cornell closer to 80%, but a lot of variables are in play. The bigger point is that having a high salary doesn't mean very much when you're burdened with way higher debt, and that often the debt can be way more constricting than the marginal opportunities you receive going to a "better" program.

A graduating student from a T6 school who borrows to pay tuition and living costs will run themselves upwards of $300,000 in debt, which will take five or six years to pay off while living a religiously abstinent lifestyle. At a large firm, which is the median outcome from many T14 schools, you'll work 80-100 hours per week and most of your after-tax paycheck will go to rent and loan payments, so you won't enjoy the fruits of those labors. By your fourth or fifth year, if you survive that far emotionally, physically, and financially, before you've even finished paying off your debt, more likely than not you'll be forced to leave your firm and take a much lower paying position in the private or public sector, while still finishing your debt payments. By the time you've paid off all your debt, you'll have saved less and make less than someone who went to a strong regional school for free and took a lower paying entry salary, or better yet, who didn't go to law school at all.

The alternative is you default on your student loans, which many Americans face today, and move back home with your parents.

well that's one way to look at it

There's also cash flow.

But just don't fucking take out sticker.

[trebekismyhero]

Where do most lawyers go after big law? Why r they forced out? Is it because they aren't good?

Its a highly leveraged business model. Almost anyone who makes it to year 5 at a large firm is "good" at their job. They just for whatever reason are not partnership material.

So, if not partnership material, are they laid off/encouraged to quit?

Where do they go after? Another experienced/affluent firm and try to make partner their? I don't imagine that their careers are suffering.

If they are billing a lot, then they are not laid off. As long as you are profitable you can usually stick around. Most people try to go in-house, smaller firms, government, etc.

[Attax]

Have you failed to consider that the other jobs that also make as much money would not be more fulfilling, because a) those individuals don't pose a strong interest in those fields and b) the discussion is about law school.

It's like someone saying how do I go about making and continuously having a satisfying breakfast? and someone responds eat lunch.

You have a respectable job, but yet you make it seem that no one else will have that, most people will be unhappy or your respectable job is still shit without providing a basis for this understanding. I mean it's like saying don't eat cheeseburgers, but you sit in my face and eat one and won't tell me why I shouldn't be eating one.

Having an interest in a field doesn't necessarily make it fulfilling. Searching for complete satisfaction in your life via your employment will leave you always lacking. But at least outside of law, you have time to do things other than merely work. You may have a "strong interest," I know I did when I entered law school, but I'm way more fulfilled in my career after dropping out because it put me in a position where I have both the time and financial resources to pursue what really does make my life fulfilling.

I think there are plenty of people telling you why you shouldn't be eating those cheeseburgers: huge amounts of debt, horrible work life balance, little to no control over your own life. If that sounds fulfilling, then go ahead. If not, drop out of the law school rat race while you're ahead.

[lillawyer2]

Have you failed to consider that the other jobs that also make as much money would not be more fulfilling, because a) those individuals don't pose a strong interest in those fields and b) the discussion is about law school.

It's like someone saying how do I go about making and continuously having a satisfying breakfast? and someone responds eat lunch.

You have a respectable job, but yet you make it seem that no one else will have that, most people will be unhappy or your respectable job is still shit without providing a basis for this understanding. I mean it's like saying don't eat cheeseburgers, but you sit in my face and eat one and won't tell me why I shouldn't be eating one.

Having an interest in a field doesn't necessarily make it fulfilling. Searching for complete satisfaction in your life via your employment will leave you always lacking. But at least outside of law, you have time to do things other than merely work. You may have a "strong interest," I know I did when I entered law school, but I'm way more fulfilled in my career after dropping out because it put me in a position where I have both the time and financial resources to pursue what really does make my life fulfilling.

I think there are plenty of people telling you why you shouldn't be eating those cheeseburgers: huge amounts of debt, horrible work life balance, little to no control over your own life. If that sounds fulfilling, then go ahead. If not, drop out of the law school rat race while you're ahead.

I don't know any job where if you recieve 100k+ your work life balance doesn't suck. At my finance firm, people only make 80k and are working forever. Their work life balance is shit. Public ACCOUNTING FIRMS WILL pay you 70k and steal your soul. No company will pay you a certain amount and not have you work for that amount. In America, our work life balance is that we live to work and not work to live. It's a horrible condition to have created, but it's how it works. The more money one makes in America, the more they are responsible for and the more time they are required to be devoted to work.

So yes, lawyers may have to drudge through lots of work and the work may be boring, but shit most careers are and the careers that give a lot of money require you to work your ass off.

If I wanted to make an OK salary and have a great work life balance, I would have became a teacher and be content with my 70k at 45 years old. I know I'll never break 100k until I get tenure and been at the same school for 15+ years.

When someone wants a career in law, medicine, accounting, technology and etc..they knwo their work balance life will suck. So really it doesn't add anything to the conversation. Lol no one Denies work life balance is poor and it isn't really a huge deterring factor.

[Clearly]

Have you failed to consider that the other jobs that also make as much money would not be more fulfilling, because a) those individuals don't pose a strong interest in those fields and b) the discussion is about law school.

It's like someone saying how do I go about making and continuously having a satisfying breakfast? and someone responds eat lunch.

You have a respectable job, but yet you make it seem that no one else will have that, most people will be unhappy or your respectable job is still shit without providing a basis for this understanding. I mean it's like saying don't eat cheeseburgers, but you sit in my face and eat one and won't tell me why I shouldn't be eating one.

Having an interest in a field doesn't necessarily make it fulfilling. Searching for complete satisfaction in your life via your employment will leave you always lacking. But at least outside of law, you have time to do things other than merely work. You may have a "strong interest," I know I did when I entered law school, but I'm way more fulfilled in my career after dropping out because it put me in a position where I have both the time and financial resources to pursue what really does make my life fulfilling.

I think there are plenty of people telling you why you shouldn't be eating those cheeseburgers: huge amounts of debt, horrible work life balance, little to no control over your own life. If that sounds fulfilling, then go ahead. If not, drop out of the law school rat race while you're ahead.

I don't know any job where if you recieve 100k+ your work life balance doesn't suck. At my finance firm, people only make 80k and are working forever. Their work life balance is shit. Public ACCOUNTING FIRMS WILL pay you 70k and steal your soul. No company will pay you a certain amount and not have you work for that amount. In America, our work life balance is that we live to work and not work to live. It's a horrible condition to have created, but it's how it works. The more money one makes in America, the more they are responsible for and the more time they are required to be devoted to work.

So yes, lawyers may have to drudge through lots of work and the work may be boring, but shit most careers are and the careers that give a lot of money require you to work your ass off.

If I wanted to make an OK salary and have a great work life balance, I would have became a teacher and be content with my 70k at 45 years old. I know I'll never break 100k until I get tenure and been at the same school for 15+ years.

When someone wants a career in law, medicine, accounting, technology and etc..they knwo their work balance life will suck. So really it doesn't add anything to the conversation. Lol no one Denies work life balance is poor and it isn't really a huge deterring factor.

The problem is the price of entry is so high that it's not worth it. You take 300k in loans to make 100k after taxes to live on 50k a year and put 50k a year into student loans for 8 years just to break even, meanwhile it's rare people even survive that long in big law...

[seashell.economy]

PLEASE listen to the advise on these boards, the people giving you advise are actually in/have gone through law school and know what they are talking about. I started at a strong regional with a decent scholly this fall but now really really really wish i had studied harder for the lsat and was going to a better school. Once you start you will realize that most people in your class are as determined, if not more, than you to be at the top of the class and put in as much, if not more, effort as you. You HAVE to assume you'll be around median wherever you go as there isn't really much you can do to guarantee you'll be at the top of your class. You will realize this when you start school. It's a hell of a lot easier to score a couple points higher on the lsat and go to a better school then finishing at the top of your class in law school. I'm three weeks in and really regret not taking the advise on these boards more seriously. So PLEASE do yourselves a favor and score as high as you possibly can on the lsat before you decide to enter school. Why? The school you go to plays a huge role in what kind of job opportunities are available to you. Enough has been mentioned on these boards about big law and you should be well aware that outside the T15 your chances of getting big law are virtually non-existent. I am talking about working at a small/mid-sized firm, DA/PD office, public interest, any sort of government job, in house for a corp, ect. The better your school, the better your options. Don't start out at a disadvantage by going to a lesser school. Again, it's a lot easier to do better on the lsat and go to a better school than to do really well and finish at the top of your class in law school. That's it

I think the better advice would be: DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL! DO SOMETHING ELSE WITH YOUR LIFE! THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER CAREERS, WHEREIN YOU CAN MAKE JUST AS MUCH MONEY, IF NOT MORE, AND LEAD A MORE FULFILLING LIFE!



-3L with a respectable Job

Like what? If you don't want to go into petroleum engineering or computer science or something, what else is there? Esp for students with no med/stem backgrounds.

[seashell.economy]

PLEASE listen to the advise on these boards, the people giving you advise are actually in/have gone through law school and know what they are talking about. I started at a strong regional with a decent scholly this fall but now really really really wish i had studied harder for the lsat and was going to a better school. Once you start you will realize that most people in your class are as determined, if not more, than you to be at the top of the class and put in as much, if not more, effort as you. You HAVE to assume you'll be around median wherever you go as there isn't really much you can do to guarantee you'll be at the top of your class. You will realize this when you start school. It's a hell of a lot easier to score a couple points higher on the lsat and go to a better school then finishing at the top of your class in law school. I'm three weeks in and really regret not taking the advise on these boards more seriously. So PLEASE do yourselves a favor and score as high as you possibly can on the lsat before you decide to enter school. Why? The school you go to plays a huge role in what kind of job opportunities are available to you. Enough has been mentioned on these boards about big law and you should be well aware that outside the T15 your chances of getting big law are virtually non-existent. I am talking about working at a small/mid-sized firm, DA/PD office, public interest, any sort of government job, in house for a corp, ect. The better your school, the better your options. Don't start out at a disadvantage by going to a lesser school. Again, it's a lot easier to do better on the lsat and go to a better school than to do really well and finish at the top of your class in law school. That's it

I think the better advice would be: DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL! DO SOMETHING ELSE WITH YOUR LIFE! THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER CAREERS, WHEREIN YOU CAN MAKE JUST AS MUCH MONEY, IF NOT MORE, AND LEAD A MORE FULFILLING LIFE!

-3L with a respectable Job

Have you failed to consider that the other jobs that also make as much money would not be more fulfilling, because a) those individuals don't pose a strong interest in those fields and b) the discussion is about law school.

It's like someone saying how do I go about making and continuously having a satisfying breakfast? and someone responds eat lunch.

You have a respectable job, but yet you make it seem that no one else will have that, most people will be unhappy or your respectable job is still shit without providing a basis for this understanding. I mean it's like saying don't eat cheeseburgers, but you sit in my face and eat one and won't tell me why I shouldn't be eating one.

Honestly, this is a brilliant and spunky response. I think lillawyer will do just fine.

[Jaydee]

I couldn't pull the trigger on 200K in debt, but I also want to be a lawyer (not biglaw, but family law/immigration--maybe even just part-time for now. + I actually enjoy studying law) I compromised by waiting to go to LS; now I'm in LS, paying 0 tuition, and going at night (so I didn't even have to quit my job).
It took a few years to line up a work-situation where I could go to school on the side--with full funding for LS, but I've never been happier.
It's not the best LS I could have gotten into--it's a dreaded T-4, but so what? Now that I'm older it really doesn't even matter. Within 2-weeks of changing my LinkedIn profile to "JD candidate..." old colleagues and bosses who are attorneys emailed to congratulate me and hinted that I could have a job with them once I graduate.

The point is, there's no rush. Taking out 200-300K in student debt is crazy and avoidable if you're patient.

[lillawyer2]

Have you failed to consider that the other jobs that also make as much money would not be more fulfilling, because a) those individuals don't pose a strong interest in those fields and b) the discussion is about law school.

It's like someone saying how do I go about making and continuously having a satisfying breakfast? and someone responds eat lunch.

You have a respectable job, but yet you make it seem that no one else will have that, most people will be unhappy or your respectable job is still shit without providing a basis for this understanding. I mean it's like saying don't eat cheeseburgers, but you sit in my face and eat one and won't tell me why I shouldn't be eating one.

Having an interest in a field doesn't necessarily make it fulfilling. Searching for complete satisfaction in your life via your employment will leave you always lacking. But at least outside of law, you have time to do things other than merely work. You may have a "strong interest," I know I did when I entered law school, but I'm way more fulfilled in my career after dropping out because it put me in a position where I have both the time and financial resources to pursue what really does make my life fulfilling.

I think there are plenty of people telling you why you shouldn't be eating those cheeseburgers: huge amounts of debt, horrible work life balance, little to no control over your own life. If that sounds fulfilling, then go ahead. If not, drop out of the law school rat race while you're ahead.

I don't know any job where if you recieve 100k+ your work life balance doesn't suck. At my finance firm, people only make 80k and are working forever. Their work life balance is shit. Public ACCOUNTING FIRMS WILL pay you 70k and steal your soul. No company will pay you a certain amount and not have you work for that amount. In America, our work life balance is that we live to work and not work to live. It's a horrible condition to have created, but it's how it works. The more money one makes in America, the more they are responsible for and the more time they are required to be devoted to work.

So yes, lawyers may have to drudge through lots of work and the work may be boring, but shit most careers are and the careers that give a lot of money require you to work your ass off.

If I wanted to make an OK salary and have a great work life balance, I would have became a teacher and be content with my 70k at 45 years old. I know I'll never break 100k until I get tenure and been at the same school for 15+ years.

When someone wants a career in law, medicine, accounting, technology and etc..they knwo their work balance life will suck. So really it doesn't add anything to the conversation. Lol no one Denies work life balance is poor and it isn't really a huge deterring factor.

The problem is the price of entry is so high that it's not worth it. You take 300k in loans to make 100k after taxes to live on 50k a year and put 50k a year into student loans for 8 years just to break even, meanwhile it's rare people even survive that long in big law...

Clearly who is doing this? I mean let's think about it clearly. No one takes 300k out of debt, unless (key word here) bobby's little squirrel upstairs had a stroke while turning the wheel at the unfortunate time when poor bobby was filling out financial aid. I mean seriously. If we think about it, those who take out 300k have to know that they will be slaving away for years to pay it off. No one takes out that much money and isnt a slave to their job. Doctors with their guaranteed high salary after they pass all their rigorous testing and schooling pay out and gruel for a long time. The good thing about law school is that YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SUFFER we choose to suffer. So it isn't the profession that is the problem, it is the people that go into it. Bobby chose to take out 300k in loans, when he could have retook for a better score or went to a regional school that gave him more money.

The price of entry is high for all graduate schooling. In this era, nothing is for free. Everything cost top dollar. You want a prestigious profession? You have to pay the prestigious price for it or work hard to be determined worthy of paying less. No one is going to hand you something without busting your balls first. There are ways to beat the system, whose fault is it if bobby doesn't beat it and take home the gold? It's bobbys and no one else's. The law schools aren't lying to you. All the chips are on the table. It's up to you. Anyone with eyes and basic research skills can weigh their pros and cons before taking that jump. I sure as hell did. I used this site, and others to gauge if I was making the right decision....I molded the advice to fit my situation.

So if bobby thought it was worth it takiing out 300k for his 100k job then he has to live with it and it isn't the law schools fault. It isn't the professions fault. It's only bobbys fault and hopefully bobby will take it in stride and has a good plan to make the best of his situation.

There are many people who go to law school with loans under 100k. Your scenario seems kind of extreme and if most people on this board follow the tls advice then they should be doing pretty well for themselves. The legal profession isn't going anywhere. The prestige of having a law degree from a t14 has not gone away. The money hasn't gone away. Lawyers with sense will always make money. Everyone needs a lawyer. Have some hustle about you. The legal career as a lawyer is an insurance policy career which means that if you lose your job and have some sense and hustle you can go out and make money on your own without an employer. I STAND BY THIS 100%. Someone with a profession not just a career but a profession and can't make decent money And thrive (not every lawyer will make 100k+, but thrive enough to have a good home life and able to be financially stable) needs to not to be quick and reevaluate the profession and place blame there but themselves and the better choices they could have made. People always quick to blame someone else or another entity for problems that could have been avoided if they made wiser choices.

As I wrote before, unless your rich or have well established connects, you have to bust your balls to be successful. In every career no one is going to pay you well for easy street. If you do coding you have to work equally as hard to be successful as you do for being a lawyer. Maybe there are more jobs, but there are also a lot of people in technology, people who have been doing it since they were 5. People with an iq that puts yours to shame, people with impressive reusmes...etc You have to learn different skills, go back to school, use a different part of your brain and hustle in a different community, but your still busting your balls. It would be the same if I dropped everything and tried accounting, which is boring as hell, and you bust your balls for 80k and still have to get licensing and past tests to get more money, so like law school you have to work very hard to reach a certain status.

Let's try to agree on one thing, when choosing a law school think about how well you are able to work smart and hard. There needs to be a balance, so while your young and your eagar to get your career started, pump your breaks and make sure that the law school you chose will provide the best and easiest way to work smart (ie. Career choices, particular location you want, firms you want and slaty your comfortable with and a ls debt you can manage) and hard (strategic and efficient method toward working to pay loans, career advancement, budget managing) I feel early in anyone's careeer work life balance is hard to achieve perfectly or even decently early on in life but if you work smart and hard you will essentially minimize the imbalance in your work life balance and hopefully it will be a quicker transition to a better balance.

Sorry for the grammar errors I'm on my phone and trying to type this quickly.

[lillawyer2]

I couldn't pull the trigger on 200K in debt, but I also want to be a lawyer (not biglaw, but family law/immigration--maybe even just part-time for now. + I actually enjoy studying law) I compromised by waiting to go to LS; now I'm in LS, paying 0 tuition, and going at night (so I didn't even have to quit my job).
It took a few years to line up a work-situation where I could go to school on the side--with full funding for LS, but I've never been happier.
It's not the best LS I could have gotten into--it's a dreaded T-4, but so what? Now that I'm older it really doesn't even matter. Within 2-weeks of changing my LinkedIn profile to "JD candidate..." old colleagues and bosses who are attorneys emailed to congratulate me and hinted that I could have a job with them once I graduate.

The point is, there's no rush. Taking out 200-300K in student debt is crazy and avoidable if you're patient.

Thank you!! It is possible and a great career to have, if you pay attention and work to fit your lifestyle. It's like this for any career. You have to work hard and smart to achieve your goals. Law school is no exception. You want a lot of money or you want to pursue your dreams you can do so and if you do it wisely you should have minimal complaints.

There is no rush!

I think more tls people should take an objective approach. The cynicism on this board is terrible, especially since this is a place to help out future lawyers. We all have similar goals so we should be encouraging and INFORMATIVE at the same time. The usually don't do law do coding bs has to stop, but none is more easier than the other and none is no more rewarding than the other. Each has highs and lows and struggles. It isn't the ending destination you chose that should be so concerning as the path you take to get there.

Tls has been such a great place for me to learn about the profession and the options available. However the negativity against Law schools and law in general is rather disheartening and odd for a board that aims to help people achieve their goals. I got nothing but love for this place <3 !!

[lillawyer2]

PLEASE listen to the advise on these boards, the people giving you advise are actually in/have gone through law school and know what they are talking about. I started at a strong regional with a decent scholly this fall but now really really really wish i had studied harder for the lsat and was going to a better school. Once you start you will realize that most people in your class are as determined, if not more, than you to be at the top of the class and put in as much, if not more, effort as you. You HAVE to assume you'll be around median wherever you go as there isn't really much you can do to guarantee you'll be at the top of your class. You will realize this when you start school. It's a hell of a lot easier to score a couple points higher on the lsat and go to a better school then finishing at the top of your class in law school. I'm three weeks in and really regret not taking the advise on these boards more seriously. So PLEASE do yourselves a favor and score as high as you possibly can on the lsat before you decide to enter school. Why? The school you go to plays a huge role in what kind of job opportunities are available to you. Enough has been mentioned on these boards about big law and you should be well aware that outside the T15 your chances of getting big law are virtually non-existent. I am talking about working at a small/mid-sized firm, DA/PD office, public interest, any sort of government job, in house for a corp, ect. The better your school, the better your options. Don't start out at a disadvantage by going to a lesser school. Again, it's a lot easier to do better on the lsat and go to a better school than to do really well and finish at the top of your class in law school. That's it

I think the better advice would be: DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL! DO SOMETHING ELSE WITH YOUR LIFE! THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER CAREERS, WHEREIN YOU CAN MAKE JUST AS MUCH MONEY, IF NOT MORE, AND LEAD A MORE FULFILLING LIFE!

-3L with a respectable Job

Have you failed to consider that the other jobs that also make as much money would not be more fulfilling, because a) those individuals don't pose a strong interest in those fields and b) the discussion is about law school.

It's like someone saying how do I go about making and continuously having a satisfying breakfast? and someone responds eat lunch.

You have a respectable job, but yet you make it seem that no one else will have that, most people will be unhappy or your respectable job is still shit without providing a basis for this understanding. I mean it's like saying don't eat cheeseburgers, but you sit in my face and eat one and won't tell me why I shouldn't be eating one.

Honestly, this is a brilliant and spunky response. I think lillawyer will do just fine.

Thank you, I'm trying. By August I will have all my undergrad debt finsihed at 23 years old!!!! I'll have some savings still tucked away. All I have to focus on is 170+ LSAT and enough scholarship money to cover most tuition, as I will stay at home during law school to omit cost of living.
I have a way to achieve my goal without killing myself and in a way that I will be happy.

[Jaydee]

I couldn't pull the trigger on 200K in debt, but I also want to be a lawyer (not biglaw, but family law/immigration--maybe even just part-time for now. + I actually enjoy studying law) I compromised by waiting to go to LS; now I'm in LS, paying 0 tuition, and going at night (so I didn't even have to quit my job).
It took a few years to line up a work-situation where I could go to school on the side--with full funding for LS, but I've never been happier.
It's not the best LS I could have gotten into--it's a dreaded T-4, but so what? Now that I'm older it really doesn't even matter. Within 2-weeks of changing my LinkedIn profile to "JD candidate..." old colleagues and bosses who are attorneys emailed to congratulate me and hinted that I could have a job with them once I graduate.

The point is, there's no rush. Taking out 200-300K in student debt is crazy and avoidable if you're patient.

Thank you!! It is possible and a great career to have, if you pay attention and work to fit your lifestyle. It's like this for any career. You have to work hard and smart to achieve your goals. Law school is no exception. You want a lot of money or you want to pursue your dreams you can do so and if you do it wisely you should have minimal complaints.

There is no rush!

I think more tls people should take an objective approach. The cynicism on this board is terrible, especially since this is a place to help out future lawyers. We all have similar goals so we should be encouraging and INFORMATIVE at the same time. The usually don't do law do coding bs has to stop, but none is more easier than the other and none is no more rewarding than the other. Each has highs and lows and struggles. It isn't the ending destination you chose that should be so concerning as the path you take to get there.

Tls has been such a great place for me to learn about the profession and the options available. However the negativity against Law schools and law in general is rather disheartening and odd for a board that aims to help people achieve their goals. I got nothing but love for this place <3 !!

I'm glad to see you have such a positive outlook I see many people in law school who are miserable and others who don't care about the journey or process--they just want to graduate already! I didn't know how I was going to take to law school, but my promise to myself is: 1. I have to enjoy the law/readings/discussion 2. I have to enjoy the process/journey. If I'm miserable, I'll drop-out.
Well, surprisingly I do enjoy studying (I can even sneak in an hour or two of reading at work) so the class-load is really manageable.
Right now my goal is to learn as much as I can and build a solid 1L foundation. Year 2 will be electives, so I can concentrate on my desired specialty and year 3 will be clinics. Some students are walking around dreading the next 3 years while I look at law school as really just 1 year. From my vantage point is looks like it's all downhill after 1L--and year 3, in particular, looks interesting/intriguing and fun

[lillawyer2]

I couldn't pull the trigger on 200K in debt, but I also want to be a lawyer (not biglaw, but family law/immigration--maybe even just part-time for now. + I actually enjoy studying law) I compromised by waiting to go to LS; now I'm in LS, paying 0 tuition, and going at night (so I didn't even have to quit my job).
It took a few years to line up a work-situation where I could go to school on the side--with full funding for LS, but I've never been happier.
It's not the best LS I could have gotten into--it's a dreaded T-4, but so what? Now that I'm older it really doesn't even matter. Within 2-weeks of changing my LinkedIn profile to "JD candidate..." old colleagues and bosses who are attorneys emailed to congratulate me and hinted that I could have a job with them once I graduate.

The point is, there's no rush. Taking out 200-300K in student debt is crazy and avoidable if you're patient.

Thank you!! It is possible and a great career to have, if you pay attention and work to fit your lifestyle. It's like this for any career. You have to work hard and smart to achieve your goals. Law school is no exception. You want a lot of money or you want to pursue your dreams you can do so and if you do it wisely you should have minimal complaints.

There is no rush!

I think more tls people should take an objective approach. The cynicism on this board is terrible, especially since this is a place to help out future lawyers. We all have similar goals so we should be encouraging and INFORMATIVE at the same time. The usually don't do law do coding bs has to stop, but none is more easier than the other and none is no more rewarding than the other. Each has highs and lows and struggles. It isn't the ending destination you chose that should be so concerning as the path you take to get there.

Tls has been such a great place for me to learn about the profession and the options available. However the negativity against Law schools and law in general is rather disheartening and odd for a board that aims to help people achieve their goals. I got nothing but love for this place <3 !!

I'm glad to see you have such a positive outlook I see many people in law school who are miserable and others who don't care about the journey or process--they just want to graduate already! I didn't know how I was going to take to law school, but my promise to myself is: 1. I have to enjoy the law/readings/discussion 2. I have to enjoy the process/journey. If I'm miserable, I'll drop-out.
Well, surprisingly I do enjoy studying (I can even sneak in an hour or two of reading at work) so the class-load is really manageable.
Right now my goal is to learn as much as I can and build a solid 1L foundation. Year 2 will be electives, so I can concentrate on my desired specialty and year 3 will be clinics. Some students are walking around dreading the next 3 years while I look at law school as really just 1 year. From my vantage point is looks like it's all downhill after 1L--and year 3, in particular, looks interesting/intriguing and fun

That's usually school in general. It probably has less to do with law school and more with the person. The reasons they are in law school, their life situation...etc. not many people want to be in school and see the whole process as a means to an end. Others can't take the stress of school so whether it was law school, business or med school they'd be unhappy.. It's easier to spot the people who are miserable than the ones that aren't. Negativity always stands out.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Tls has been such a great place for me to learn about the profession and the options available. However the negativity against Law schools and law in general is rather disheartening and odd for a board that aims to help people achieve their goals. I got nothing but love for this place <3 !!

I get your overall point, but it's worth considering what it says about a profession that so many people here are negative about it. You can chalk that up to the people are posting here, possibly, but there's a lot of non-TLS evidence that lawyers are miserable, and apparently uniquely miserable (stats about depression, alcohol/substance abuse etc.).

That's not saying you shouldn't go into law, but it's just something to keep in mind when evaluating people's advice/comments here. As the OP suggests, it can be hard to know what you're getting into (emotionally, even if the info is all there) until you're in it, so the cynics are just trying to pass on information they believe is important.