Howard ($$$) vs. Lower T14 ($) Forum

[BigZuck]

abl, you were the one being a dick:

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Michigan has the worst employment statistics outside of GULC

You can't focus too much on one year's worth of data. Look at where Michigan's been over the past three or five years.

Lol.... I'm not sure the data will support what you wants it to support.

So what's it say?

Just get out of here with your "Ahem, listen thread, I went to HYS so watch me pontificate with my bloviations all over this thread" schtick. It was kind of cute at first but it's getting old. We're trying to help people here, it's not "Come here kids and listen to Uncle Able talk about the glory days of HYS when real men did hiring at both prestigious PI and BIG PRESTIGE LAW" story time.

More to the point of the thread: I do think it's probably more a grim stew that is affecting Michigan than any one factor. But saying "Naw man, Mich is fine, it's better than Cornell!" when the raw data doesn't support that at all is really, really dangerous. I know it doesn't matter to boomers like you but these are other people's lives we're talking about here.

[Iwanttolawschool]

abl, you were the one being a dick:

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Michigan has the worst employment statistics outside of GULC

You can't focus too much on one year's worth of data. Look at where Michigan's been over the past three or five years.

Lol.... I'm not sure the data will support what you wants it to support.

So what's it say?

Just get out of here with your "Ahem, listen thread, I went to HYS so watch me pontificate with my bloviations all over this thread" schtick. It was kind of cute at first but it's getting old. We're trying to help people here, it's not "Come here kids and listen to Uncle Able talk about the glory days of HYS when real men did hiring at both prestigious PI and BIG PRESTIGE LAW" story time.

More to the point of the thread: I do think it's probably more a grim stew that is affecting Michigan than any one factor. But saying "Naw man, Mich is fine, it's better than Cornell!" when the raw data doesn't support that at all is really, really dangerous. I know it doesn't matter to boomers like you but these are other people's lives we're talking about here.

I sort of agree with both points here. The employment data does show that Michigan has lagged behind lately for legal jobs, but I did reach out to a handful of practicing lawyers who all alluded that Michigan had more "Prestige" factor than the NU, Cornell, GULC.
So, I get where both people are coming from here.

[Mack.Hambleton]

GULC has a lot of prestige, heck Notre Dame has a lot of prestige. Doesn't mean they're doing well or firms are going to hire their grads.

Just follow the numbers.

[krads153]

GULC has a lot of prestige, heck Notre Dame has a lot of prestige. Doesn't mean they're doing well or firms are going to hire their grads.

Just follow the numbers.

This doesn't make any sense. YOu also have to consider self-selection. A decent number people don't even do OCI because they have no debt.

I'm also involved in hiring, and I don't think there's a big difference between Penn/Mich/Cornell (albeit we typically don't have any Cornell summers for whatever reason).

NYC firms love NYU/Columbia and H/Y, in part because a ton of partners (probably most) went to Columbia/Harvard and NYU because it's local. Outside of that, many don't interview at Berkeley/Stanford and the schools are relatively even. For one, we have a ton of GULC summer associates this year (and like ZERO Cornell summers).....and this is a NY firm.

I will say that the quality of summers has dropped a ton since a few years ago ---- people at firms are noticing the decline. Maybe it's because law school is now a lot easier to get into?

(Also, I'm pretty sure that Boalt put fewer into biglaw+fed clerkships the past couple of years than Michigan, but nobody is ranting about them!)

[abl]

abl, you were the one being a dick:

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Michigan has the worst employment statistics outside of GULC

You can't focus too much on one year's worth of data. Look at where Michigan's been over the past three or five years.

Lol.... I'm not sure the data will support what you wants it to support.

So what's it say?

Just get out of here with your "Ahem, listen thread, I went to HYS so watch me pontificate with my bloviations all over this thread" schtick. It was kind of cute at first but it's getting old. We're trying to help people here, it's not "Come here kids and listen to Uncle Able talk about the glory days of HYS when real men did hiring at both prestigious PI and BIG PRESTIGE LAW" story time.

More to the point of the thread: I do think it's probably more a grim stew that is affecting Michigan than any one factor. But saying "Naw man, Mich is fine, it's better than Cornell!" when the raw data doesn't support that at all is really, really dangerous. I know it doesn't matter to boomers like you but these are other people's lives we're talking about here.

You seem to think that I'm older than I am (and, even more bizarrely, seem to think being older is a bad thing). I'm obviously trying to help people too, and it's hard to believe that you actually think that I'm not--although I suspect you're just basking in your own self-satisfied ad hominem glow glow rather than trying to make any sort of real point about the relevance of that or where I went to law school.

I think arguing that Cornell is better than Michigan in the eyes of hiring committees is the "dangerous" position. Data is obviously important, but the data we have available is far from comprehensive. For example, the list of "firms with >101 attorneys" includes a fairly large number of sub-optimal outcomes, while it excludes just about all of the best outcomes. I agree that there probably isn't a better easy way to measure a school's post-grad placement strength, but I think it's wise to resist putting too much stock in a metric that by definition includes many of the worst jobs available to T14 grads while excluding just about all of the best jobs.

It may well be that something's happened over the last 3-4 years that has decisively pushed Cornell above Michigan in the minds of judges hiring partners nationwide. Or, something else could be going on to explain those numbers. I'm not sure occam's razor favors the first explanation--which is what you seemed to be advocating.

Finally, let's really be honest here--even in this economy, there's not much danger in going to either Michigan or Cornell. I think it's a stretch to call what either of us are saying dangerous.

[jrf12886]

T-14, hands down. I'm at a large firm and I haven't met anyone who went to Howard (not saying it's a bad school).

(and why are we hijacking this post with Mich debate, doesn't matter to OP).

[silenttimer]

Just curious -- are URMs exempted from the ubiquitous-"Retake!"-advice that is often part of this board's repertoire?

[PoopNpants]

Just curious -- are URMs exempted from the ubiquitous-"Retake!"-advice that is often part of this board's repertoire?

No, the obvious TCR in this instance is to re-take. 3-4 more points could mean good money in T-14 and maybe even H. I don't get why people aren't giving OP this advice, unless they are out of takes.

[krads153]

Just curious -- are URMs exempted from the ubiquitous-"Retake!"-advice that is often part of this board's repertoire?

No, the obvious TCR in this instance is to re-take. 3-4 more points could mean good money in T-14 and maybe even H. I don't get why people aren't giving OP this advice, unless they are out of takes.

Agree with this advice (at least with respect to getting more $$$)

But seriously - can 0Ls and law students stop posting about hiring please? Leave it to the lawyers and people who actually partake in hiring.

[BigZuck]

Just curious -- are URMs exempted from the ubiquitous-"Retake!"-advice that is often part of this board's repertoire?

No, the obvious TCR in this instance is to re-take. 3-4 more points could mean good money in T-14 and maybe even H. I don't get why people aren't giving OP this advice, unless they are out of takes.

Agree with this advice.

But seriously - can 0Ls and law students stop posting about hiring please? Leave it to the lawyers and people who actually partake in hiring.

Dude you just said that SA quality has gone down because SAs, on average, get like 5 less questions right on a standardized test.

And you want people to take someone like you as an authority on this stuff?

I think the input of people who do hiring is important. But not when they are out of touch or their brains have become addled by their own boomerism. I don't think the data is the be all, end all by any means (mainly because it is so incomplete) but the whole "Naw man, don't worry about the data, listen to me, I've been on two hiring committees before!" thing is wickedly irresponsible.

[KMart]

Read this thread thinking it said Harvard this entire time and was angry it was not a clear decision....

T14, OP.

[krads153]

Just curious -- are URMs exempted from the ubiquitous-"Retake!"-advice that is often part of this board's repertoire?

No, the obvious TCR in this instance is to re-take. 3-4 more points could mean good money in T-14 and maybe even H. I don't get why people aren't giving OP this advice, unless they are out of takes.

Agree with this advice.

But seriously - can 0Ls and law students stop posting about hiring please? Leave it to the lawyers and people who actually partake in hiring.

Dude you just said that SA quality has gone down because SAs, on average, get like 5 less questions right on a standardized test.

And you want people to take someone like you as an authority on this stuff?

I think the input of people who do hiring is important. But not when they are out of touch or their brains have become addled by their own boomerism. I don't think the data is the be all, end all by any means (mainly because it is so incomplete) but the whole "Naw man, don't worry about the data, listen to me, I've been on two hiring committees before!" thing is wickedly irresponsible.

No, SA work product has gone down a lot since a few years ago, so we're mainly judging based on their work product. As an example, Columbia/NYU students have little to no attention to detail and turn in garbage. If they were first years, they'd probably have gotten a talking to (but they're summers, so people are being nice).

[PoopNpants]

Read this thread thinking it said Harvard this entire time and was angry it was not a clear decision....

T14, OP.

Nah, OP said $180,000 in debt and he/she is debt-adversed. I agree tho T14>Howard but re-take is the best option I think we can all agree on that

[KMart]

Nah, OP said $180,000 in debt and he/she is debt-adversed. I agree tho T14>Howard but re-take is the best option I think we can all agree on that

100%, although often people don't like the retake/reapply route.

[BruceWayne]

The further I get from law school the more I realize that unless it's your dream to work at a big firm (and maybe even then) just go with the option that offers you significantly less debt as long as you're not talking about a school that is not reputable. Howard is definitely reputable for a black student. Taking out 100K in debt to attend almost any law school is just ludicrous. You don't really understand it until you start having to flush down significant portions of your paycheck every month without actually getting anything for it. Seriously it sucks (and this is coming from someone on IBR working a PLSF qualifying job- I can't fathom the pain of paying back the normal monthly amount even with a six figure salary). Having to payout large sums of money from your paycheck every month for years HEAVILY impacts your quality of life. Things like vacations, buying a car, buying a home, even financing furniture/electronics all get thrown for a loop because of your monthly obligation to fedloan servicing etc.

[PoopNpants]

The further I get from law school the more I realize that unless it's your dream to work at a big firm (and maybe even then) just go with the option that offers you significantly less debt as long as you're not talking about a school that is not reputable. Howard is definitely reputable for a black student. Taking out 100K in debt to attend almost any law school is just ludicrous. You don't really understand it until you start having to flush down significant portions of your paycheck every month without actually getting anything for it. Seriously it sucks (and this is coming from someone on IBR working a PLSF qualifying job- I can't fathom the pain of paying back the normal monthly amount even with a six figure salary). Having to payout large sums of money from your paycheck every month for years HEAVILY impacts your quality of life. Things like vacations, buying a car, buying a home, even financing furniture/electronics all get thrown for a loop because of your monthly obligation to fedloan servicing etc.

Yeah I agree but even for a black student, Howard isn't a good idea if you want biglaw there is still a large chance that it won't happen coming out of there. that's why the best thing OP can do is maximize LSAT score for the biggest potential scholarship at a T14 or similar top school that places well into biglaw, which Howard definitely doesn't do.

[isuperserial]

The further I get from law school the more I realize that unless it's your dream to work at a big firm (and maybe even then) just go with the option that offers you significantly less debt as long as you're not talking about a school that is not reputable. Howard is definitely reputable for a black student. Taking out 100K in debt to attend almost any law school is just ludicrous. You don't really understand it until you start having to flush down significant portions of your paycheck every month without actually getting anything for it. Seriously it sucks (and this is coming from someone on IBR working a PLSF qualifying job- I can't fathom the pain of paying back the normal monthly amount even with a six figure salary). Having to payout large sums of money from your paycheck every month for years HEAVILY impacts your quality of life. Things like vacations, buying a car, buying a home, even financing furniture/electronics all get thrown for a loop because of your monthly obligation to fedloan servicing etc.

Yeah I agree but even for a black student, Howard isn't a good idea if you want biglaw there is still a large chance that it won't happen coming out of there. that's why the best thing OP can do is maximize LSAT score for the biggest potential scholarship at a T14 or similar top school that places well into biglaw, which Howard definitely doesn't do.

I mean, he says he's not sure about Biglaw. It also sounds like he doesn't want to retake... So even though I think he should take a second crack at the LSAT, I'd say given his current options I'd go for Howard.

Honestly though, I think he went about applications all wrong if those are his only options. A URM with those stats should be looking at some full rides from Illinois or Iowa, and I'd take that 70%+ employment rate over Howard's 55% any day.

[Lacepiece23]

The further I get from law school the more I realize that unless it's your dream to work at a big firm (and maybe even then) just go with the option that offers you significantly less debt as long as you're not talking about a school that is not reputable. Howard is definitely reputable for a black student. Taking out 100K in debt to attend almost any law school is just ludicrous. You don't really understand it until you start having to flush down significant portions of your paycheck every month without actually getting anything for it. Seriously it sucks (and this is coming from someone on IBR working a PLSF qualifying job- I can't fathom the pain of paying back the normal monthly amount even with a six figure salary). Having to payout large sums of money from your paycheck every month for years HEAVILY impacts your quality of life. Things like vacations, buying a car, buying a home, even financing furniture/electronics all get thrown for a loop because of your monthly obligation to fedloan servicing etc.

Finally, someone gets it. My post was thoroughly ignored. OP is looking at 180k in debt. That is only what he or she calculated. I'm sure its more like 210k+. I thought I was going to graduated with 90k debt because I got a half scholarship and factored in COL. LOL. Why anyone would take out that much debt for a shot at biglaw where they are going to grind you out after 4 years, then you start right back in the same place is beyond me.

[ManoftheHour]

According to the Georgetown calculator, $130k of borrowed debt becomes $190k in a 10 year payment plan after interest.

[BiglawAssociate]

The further I get from law school the more I realize that unless it's your dream to work at a big firm (and maybe even then) just go with the option that offers you significantly less debt as long as you're not talking about a school that is not reputable. Howard is definitely reputable for a black student. Taking out 100K in debt to attend almost any law school is just ludicrous. You don't really understand it until you start having to flush down significant portions of your paycheck every month without actually getting anything for it. Seriously it sucks (and this is coming from someone on IBR working a PLSF qualifying job- I can't fathom the pain of paying back the normal monthly amount even with a six figure salary). Having to payout large sums of money from your paycheck every month for years HEAVILY impacts your quality of life. Things like vacations, buying a car, buying a home, even financing furniture/electronics all get thrown for a loop because of your monthly obligation to fedloan servicing etc.

Finally, someone gets it. My post was thoroughly ignored. OP is looking at 180k in debt. That is only what he or she calculated. I'm sure its more like 210k+. I thought I was going to graduated with 90k debt because I got a half scholarship and factored in COL. LOL. Why anyone would take out that much debt for a shot at biglaw where they are going to grind you out after 4 years, then you start right back in the same place is beyond me.

Because they are stupid 0ls with no idea what it means to have debt or to manage money or what it means to work this job. Believe it or not, I graduated with a decent amount of debt, but I scrimped, saved and paid off a shitload in my first two years in biglaw (and saved a lot more money than most biglawyers). I also fortunately ended up marrying into money. I would never take out debt again for anything.

Most biglawyers are not so frugal and most of them do not marry rich (if they marry at all), so they are financially fucked for life. Not to mention a bunch of biglawyers burn out by year 3 (so who knows if that poor 0L will be one of them).

Debt is no joke - most poor 0ls have no idea what they are getting into though and they will likely stay poor for life.

[jbagelboy]

The further I get from law school the more I realize that unless it's your dream to work at a big firm (and maybe even then) just go with the option that offers you significantly less debt as long as you're not talking about a school that is not reputable. Howard is definitely reputable for a black student. Taking out 100K in debt to attend almost any law school is just ludicrous. You don't really understand it until you start having to flush down significant portions of your paycheck every month without actually getting anything for it. Seriously it sucks (and this is coming from someone on IBR working a PLSF qualifying job- I can't fathom the pain of paying back the normal monthly amount even with a six figure salary). Having to payout large sums of money from your paycheck every month for years HEAVILY impacts your quality of life. Things like vacations, buying a car, buying a home, even financing furniture/electronics all get thrown for a loop because of your monthly obligation to fedloan servicing etc.

Finally, someone gets it. My post was thoroughly ignored. OP is looking at 180k in debt. That is only what he or she calculated. I'm sure its more like 210k+. I thought I was going to graduated with 90k debt because I got a half scholarship and factored in COL. LOL. Why anyone would take out that much debt for a shot at biglaw where they are going to grind you out after 4 years, then you start right back in the same place is beyond me.

Because they are stupid 0ls with no idea what it means to have debt or to manage money or what it means to work this job. Believe it or not, I graduated with a decent amount of debt, but I scrimped, saved and paid off a shitload in my first two years in biglaw (and saved a lot more money than most biglawyers). I also fortunately ended up marrying into money. I would never take out debt again for anything.

Most biglawyers are not so frugal and most of them do not marry rich (if they marry at all), so they are financially fucked for life. Not to mention a bunch of biglawyers burn out by year 3 (so who knows if that poor 0L will be one of them).

Debt is no joke - most poor 0ls have no idea what they are getting into though and they will likely stay poor for life.

New forum drinking game, shot of tequila for every time biglawassociate posts about his totally-not-pretend rich spouse

[jbagelboy]

Also, a lot of elite firms do recruit from Howard to maintain the institutional relationship, so its a much better bet than a lot of other tier two law schools. However, that doesn't make it a safe bet. I've basically never seen a Howard student in a biglaw summer class or in chambers who wasn't an editor of the Howard Law journal. So you'd have a lot more float at a T14.

[Lacepiece23]

Also, a lot of elite firms do recruit from Howard to maintain the institutional relationship, so its a much better bet than a lot of other tier two law schools. However, that doesn't make it a safe bet. I've basically never seen a Howard student in a biglaw summer class or in chambers who wasn't an editor of the howard law journal. So you'd have a lot more float at a T14.

Yeah, but the whole point of going to Howard is that OP would not have to do biglaw, which would be awesome.If OP got biglaw then cool, he or she can hate their lives like the rest of us, but then have a choice when to leave because OP would have minimal debt.

[Flokkness]

During my first cycle I applied to Howard and was accepted with a decent scholly. However, their terms were beyond onerous. If you weren't tenth percentile you'd lose something like a quarter of your merit scholly, and if you weren't thirtieth~ percentile you'd lose even more, and right on down until you could get stripped of most of your aid by 2L for being median or lower (numbers are probably fuzzy, but it was from c/o 2017's cycle so this is not ancient history by any means). It was absolutely insane. Not sure if that's how Howard still rolls, but I'd look twice before you leap.

As an URM with a decent LSAT score, you should be fishing all over the t14 for $$$. FWIW my sister graduated from Howard and thought it was a clusterfuck.

T14 with $$$ or bust, yo.

---
Edit: Here's the actual live breakdown of the Howard "award offer" that I was sent based on a $30,000/yr merit scholly. My numbers were totally off, lol. This shit is fucking nuts and if your offer is tied to similar performance requirements then it's a safe bet that "$$$" doesn't really mean "$$$." I can picture the 0Ls last year who didn't read the fine print or actually thought they'd ALL be 15th percentile and are now crying bitter tears.

http://s22.postimg.org/xsvftk1w1/Howard.jpg

[breakbot1]

OP here. Thanks for the replies.

It looks like a retake is in order.

I am more than a bit concerned about job prospects and my ability to break into the top 15-20% if at Howard. On that same wavelength, I also don't want to be a slave to big law just for the chance to service massive loans from a T14.

About the Howard scholly: the only stip is that I remain in the top 50%. They've relaxed them a little in comparison to previous years.