Campbell Law, should I attend. Forum

[THSmith]

So now I am in the position of declining the only law school to which I was accepted. Based on everything that I am hearing (both hear and IRL) I think the best solution will be to bow out this year. Any advice on explaining this to family?

[thesealocust]

Tell them it's good news. Show them the research skyrocketing costs, the incredibly difficult job market, and Campbell's dismal employment statistics.

[OhBoyOhBortles]

So now I am in the position of declining the only law school to which I was accepted. Based on everything that I am hearing (both hear and IRL) I think the best solution will be to bow out this year. Any advice on explaining this to family?

Show them the statistics. Explain that you don't think this is the best bet for your future and that you're going to spend the next several months studying for and retaking the lsat so that you can open up a number of better opportunities. Apply for some jaerbs to work on the side (or full-time, either way, work experience will be a small plus in law school admissions and a bigger plus when trying to find a legal job) so that they don't call you a freeloader.

[landshoes]

"It would cost me as much as a house, and it has a bad reputation among legal employers. I didn't realize this until I did my research, but now that I have and I know more about the legal job market, I can do a better job of applying and open up a lot more opportunity. I really appreciate your concern and I understand that it might seem like I'm giving up a good opportunity, but I am confident that this is the right career decision for me. In the next year I will be [doing renumerative activity] and studying for the LSAT, which will mean I am making a lot of progress towards my legal goals."

Something like that. Ultimately, they might not like it, but you have to suck it up. You can't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars just to avoid disappointing someone who doesn't know any better.

[stego]

- each year there about 30,000 law jobs for about 50,000 law school graduates in the US
- law school is overpriced and even at elite schools, paying sticker price for tuition is often not a good investment. At low-ranked schools, it's an incredibly poor investment.
- The legal job market in North Carolina with Campbell grads competing against grads from 6 other law schools in the state
- Even finishing top of the class at Campbell does not guarantee a good outcome. Finishing middle or bottom of the class at Campbell almost guarantees a poor one.

[THSmith]

It is just so surprising. Especially when Campbell purports to have such a good reputation in North Carolina. Is this just marketing? This almost seems like unfair trade practices?

[thesealocust]

It's just marketing, and it's a huge problem nationwide.

Check out Law School Transparency: http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

[AReasonableMan]

Again, the focus on the general state of the economy is pertinent, but potentially harmful in this discussion. Although it may be prudent to not attend unless you get into NC with a decent scholarship, the black and white nature of this argument fails to distinguish between levels of risk. We aren't speaking about a school where only 15-20% is better off for having gone to law school. We're speaking about a school where it's virtually 0-1%.

To paint by analogy, if law school were boxing, we'd agree fighting a boxer 50 pounds bigger than you is reckless. However, it's not impossible for you to win. Some fighters are both gifted and lucky such that weight class is irrelevant. Now let's say the same boxer were a double amputee with no arms. Here, boxing the heavier boxer wouldn't only be reckless, but also be suicidal. Campbell is boxing with no arms. The federal government, Charlotte DA and market paying firms aren't recruiting from Campbell. Further, Duke isn't going to be admitting from Campbell. Doing so hurts their reputation. When you start your first day of school, you will have essentially thrown away your chance to be a lawyer.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Op I'm glad you came to this conclusion. Your family will be surprised and maybe disappointed but it is a very strong position to be able to say "I got in to a professional graduate program but after doing research I decided to decline the offer because I believe I can attend a better program on better terms."

[THSmith]

Thanks for all the support. This was a hard choice to make, but I think that not going to Campbell Law will end up being the better choice.

Thank you all again.

[landshoes]

I can only speak for myself, but it's extremely gratifying to be able to help someone make an informed decision. I hope everything works out for you.

[jdcumlaude]

When I first read OP’s post I began thinking about reasons and justifications for OP to avoid Campbell Law at all costs. Since I began this thought process, OP has made the profoundly wise choice not to attend. Therefore, the intent of this post will be to affirm the choice that OP has made.
My Experiences:
I graduated Cum Laude from Campbell in 2013. Since that time I have been unable to find employment despite my best efforts. Networking, volunteering, and begging all came to nothing. In desperation I hung out a shingle with the intent to handle minor traffic and expand my practice from there. This too was to no avail. I determined that for the foreseeable future my best case scenario would be making about $20k per year (maybe). All the while my $200,000+ tuition would be accruing at 7.5% each year. This was not a tenable situation.
I have spoken with Campbell’s Career Services, but this has been the source of approximately “0” job leads. The Career center, in my estimate, has become the public relations office for the law school.
I spent months wondering what I was doing wrong. After speaking to several professionals in the area and having my resume reviewed by dozens of people, I came to the conclusion that it was not necessarily me. The job market in North Carolina is terribly over-saturated. To put it to actual numbers, the year I became licensed, nearly 1,100 people passed the bar (and presumably were licensed shortly thereafter). NC has 100 counties meaning that about 11 attorney per county were put into the market place. The problem is that out of those 100 counties 70+ do not have the market to support 2 new attorneys. The result is that those markets are inaccessible unless you have family or great connections. The secondary side effect of this phenomenon is that the more metropolitan markets become flooded with new lawyers with no place to go. Campbell knows this, Charlotte knows this, and Central knows this (but at least has the courtesy not to charge 37k in tuition).
Campbell (as well as other law schools) perpetuates the lie of the versatility of a law degree. This is probably the greatest lie told to incoming and current law students. It usually goes something like this, “a law degree opens up a whole world to you outside of the law, many industries want to have an attorney on staff just because they recognize the skills of a lawyer to be valuable in their industry.” I heard this lie many times while attending Campbell Law, and I am ashamed to say I fell for it hook-line-n-sinker. The moment JD enters your resume any given non-law recruiter or professional will view you as a flight risk. They know you will leave for a law job the first chance you get. Do not make my mistake.
I am not trying to be a cynical bastard. I have dreamed of practicing law since high school. I never had lofty goals of working in big law making a six figure salary. I honestly would truly love working as an ADA or an APD, but even after volunteering and making as many connection as I am able my humble dream has not come true.
For those who read this and are currently attending, or thinking about attending Campbell Law, or any for-profit law school (which Campbell will claim not to be, but their pricing model looks strikingly similar to CSOL). I say this, “JUST DO NOT DO IT”, there is no shame is avoiding a bad financial choice. There is, however, a great deal of shame when you graduate from law school $200,000+ in debt that you cannot pay back, a child and wife you desperately want to support, and at some level knowing that you are viewed as a failure by others who simply cannot understand your position.
Campbell law is a bad choice, and OP made the right one.

[AReasonableMan]

It is also impossible to succeed once you feel like garbage. My first mentor told me the moment your employer makes you feel like you don't have the potential to rise to the top, you have to get out, especially as a young person, because the longer you stay the more your sense of respect diminishes. Imagine having a JD, working 14 hours a day and then suddenly getting a call the project is over, and you can have the stuff you left in the office mailed to you. Even if dream jobs suddenly became plentiful and doc reviewers weren't precluded, how many of those who would have succeeded from the outset will fail because of this?

[AReasonableMan]

Just for future people with these questions, you shouldn't make decisions based on advice of people who haven't looked at the data no matter how much you love them. You might listen to your parents on which partner you should choose, but if their advice conflicted with a doctor's advice regarding medicine, they'd be wrong 99.9% of the time. Similarly, unless they are currently raking in $ in the stock market, their career advice is reflecting anecdotal data from 40 years ago.

[jdcumlaude]

Agreed, I went to law school with the dream of becoming a lawyer. The whole time being cheered on by my family and friends. Family and friends can be an excellent source of strength and will raise your self-esteem, but they are often ignorant about your goals. Love your family, but listen to experts.

[Hat.trick]

You should only attend if you meet one or more of these criteria:

1) you want to be unemployed
2) you enjoy being in debt
3) you are a wealthy and bored human being who is interested in seeing what a terrible law school is like

[AReasonableMan]

(1) A law school saying they have a "good reputation" isn't really an unfair practice. It's such a vague term that no reasonable person would take it at face value. If a used car salesman told you that a car was a "good car," this doesn't mean he's promising it will be reliable on a day in and day out basis. No rational person would assume this to be the case.

(2) Parental disappointment is an awful measure to use to make major life choices, especially in the short term. Your parents will be much more disappointed when you're living in their basement with no prospects, and in a much worse position than the minimum wage kid down the block who never went to college.

(3) The anecdotal experience of one person is irrelevant. There will also be selection bias at play. People who succeed would be much likelier to sing the praises of the school. It's essentially like the scientology movement in that if something good happens to a member, it's all because of the law school and if something bad happens then it's because of the student. In addition, success at a place like Campbell looks very different than success at a better school. Going to this law school essentially stacks all the odds against you. It's like choosing to have a 2/7 off-suit on your all in Texas hold 'em hand when you could choose to be a splitter and have an Ace-2.

[timbs4339]

When people say a law school has a good reputation they are usually older and are basing it off the few lawyers that they know personally or who are local lawyers. These lawyers, for various reasons, usually went to schools like Campbell. They are the ones who survived, i.e. they made it out of law school, got a job, and built a successful practice over years of hard work. And they did it in a very different market with a lot less debt (even when adjusting for inflation).

Campbell isn't a bad option if you go for close to free (basically, you'd be paying what those people paid just adjusted for inflation which is probably something 10K per year), keep the scholarship and you only have the desire to work in a rural/small North Carolina country either for local/state government or as a small firm lawyer probably making about 45K. If you can't say yes to any of those conditions, than do not go to Campbell. It is that simple.

[84651846190]

You should only attend if you meet one or more of these criteria:

1) you want to be unemployed
2) you enjoy being in debt
3) you are a wealthy and bored human being who is interested in seeing what a terrible law school is like

This.

[allin0792]

So now I am in the position of declining the only law school to which I was accepted. Based on everything that I am hearing (both hear and IRL) I think the best solution will be to bow out this year. Any advice on explaining this to family?

OP, I am interested in knowing if you just left the law school route all together or if you tried to take the LSAT again. What is your status today?

[bmathers]

My father attended Gonzaga Law (a low-ranking school), came back to practice in small-town PA, and mokes over $200k/yr in an area with a low COL. His former partner, now judge, attended Widener in Harrisburg PA (an unranked law school). Both have done very well after attended a "lowly" school, as did many of their peers. A low ranking is certainly not a barrier from success - after you land that first job, your performance and network is what will advance you in your career - but, you need to land that fist job.

If you want biglaw in the city, starting at $150kyr, then a T14 school is important. It depends on your goals (this advice is coming from my father and other people in the biz for 30-40 years. I'm 28 myself, and applying to hopefully land a top 30 or 50 acceptance. One thing that I'm very fortunate about is I have a MLM business that pays me 35-40k/per year, which should cover my COL in law school).


My brother-in-law also attended Wake Forest 10-15 years ago and is doing very well in Atlanta. WF ranks around #50. My college friend attended Michigan State on a full-ride and got a great job after graduation in Charlotte. I don't think Michigan State is top 100

It is what you make of it. It's your choice - just know the risk that you run and be willing to put in the work for good internships and a job after graduation.

[Total Litigator]

So now I am in the position of declining the only law school to which I was accepted. Based on everything that I am hearing (both hear and IRL) I think the best solution will be to bow out this year. Any advice on explaining this to family?

Tell fam to go F themselves.

When I was a 0L, my Mom after I expressed hesitation about taking on so much debt: "Think of the debt as an investment in yourself, son."

When I'm a 3L, my Mom: "I can't believe you took on this much debt son, what were you thinking?"

Me: "Mom, you cosigned, you signed the same loan agreement I did, and you just got lucky because legislation transferred the private loan to the government and released co-signers."

Mom: "Well, I would have, um, I..."

[deadpanic]

My father attended Gonzaga Law (a low-ranking school), came back to practice in small-town PA, and mokes over $200k/yr in an area with a low COL. His former partner, now judge, attended Widener in Harrisburg PA (an unranked law school). Both have done very well after attended a "lowly" school, as did many of their peers. A low ranking is certainly not a barrier from success - after you land that first job, your performance and network is what will advance you in your career - but, you need to land that fist job.

If you want biglaw in the city, starting at $150kyr, then a T14 school is important. It depends on your goals (this advice is coming from my father and other people in the biz for 30-40 years. I'm 28 myself, and applying to hopefully land a top 30 or 50 acceptance. One thing that I'm very fortunate about is I have a MLM business that pays me 35-40k/per year, which should cover my COL in law school).


My brother-in-law also attended Wake Forest 10-15 years ago and is doing very well in Atlanta. WF ranks around #50. My college friend attended Michigan State on a full-ride and got a great job after graduation in Charlotte. I don't think Michigan State is top 100

It is what you make of it. It's your choice - just know the risk that you run and be willing to put in the work for good internships and a job after graduation.

This is such an 0L post or someone that already has it made. Of course OLD, ESTABLISHED attorneys in small towns that have the best name recognition will get a shitload of divorces, personal injury, criminal defense, etc. work that they can make decent money; that will not be the case for pretty much every new student in a bottom school. And sure, every few students out of hundreds from lower-ranked schools will do well, but the odds are extremely bad. It is not "what you make of it." That is a false narrative that 0Ls take the bait on thinking only the lazy people don't do well because they just don't "make of it."

[jdcumlaude]

Thank you!!! I get so tired of hearing this...."I have a _______ who attended (insert crap school here) in 19__ and they are making a $_00,000 per year"

These people need to introduce themselves to the concept of the exception that proves the rule. Yes, if you graduated from law school before 1990 and are still practicing today, then chances are you are probably making a good living. If you were not making a good living after that long you would be a fool to have not simply moved on.

To OP who chose to avoid Campbell Law School, good choice now leave these forums and never look back. There is no future in the law for 70%+ of those who graduate, and only a moderate income for the bottom 50% who have some future in the law.

[THSmith]

Okay guys quick update. Thank you for all the advice. I dodged a bullet. I will not be attending law school in the near future, but even if I choose to at a later date I will avoid Campbell Law School. I have some friends who attended my perspective year as a well as a few who were a year ahead. From what I have gleaned their have been a number of staff to leave/retire and it is sounding more and more like rats jumping from a sinking ship. Their are also some whispers on campus about low job numbers and even lower graduate satisfaction.

This is all second hand so take it with a grain of salt. Certainly not worth a 6 figure debt load.