Is UVA worth $45,000 over Michigan? Forum

[CanadianWolf]

You need to check both MBA programs to make sure that you can minimize repetition of courses. Sometimes a masters in finance or economics can be more valuable depending upon your background & the type of work that you plan/want to do.

[daleearnhardt123]

.02 of a UVA grad working in DC. UVA may be worth the 45 in loans, and it's DEFINITELY worth the 45 from family, provided they have the means. Anecdotally, I have found DC to be swimming in UVA law grAds, both in big law and gov. That isn't true to nearly the same extent at Michigan. I'm sure the numbers bear this out.

If your goal was NY it'd be hard to justify the disparity. But UVA does better in DC than any school besides Harvard and Yale

[abcabc]

...

[everton125]

While I am not sure UVA is worth $45,000 over Michigan, it is probably worth more, particularly given the recent employment trends and OPs desire to work in DC. Based off of the 2014 employment outcomes, which are detailed below, I am not sure you we should be calling them peers any longer. A 14% BigLaw and Fed Clerk gap is considerable. Obviously BigLaw and Fed Clerk positions are not all that mater, but UVA has a slight edge in total employment as well, per Law School Transparency.

If I were OP, I might just lean towards Michigan given the scholarship differences, but when you are going to be in debt regardless, there is also a lot to be said for going to a law school that gives you a 14% better chance of getting a job that will allow you to pay off your debt quickly. I would also add that, after a quick review, UVA's LRAP program seems to be marginally superior. This decision is not as black & white as some posters are making it out to be.

Class of 2014 Employment Outcomes:

UVA:
BigLaw: 52.44%
Fed Clerk: 15.19%
LST Employment Score: 94.3%

Michigan:
BigLaw: 43.33%
Fed Clerk: 10.51%
LST Employment Score: 90.3%

Edit: To reflect LST employment numbers because I originally did horribly searching

[secadc11]

While I am not sure UVA is worth $45,000 over Michigan, it is probably worth more, particularly given the recent employment trends and OPs desire to work in DC. Based off of the 2014 employment outcomes, which are detailed below, I am not sure you we should be calling them peers any longer. A 14% BigLaw and FedClerk gap is considerable. Obviously BigLaw and Fed Clerk positions are not all that mater, but I am fairly confident UVA is beating Michigan on total employment as well. Unfortunately, Michigan is not on Law School Transparency so I can't provide the exact numbers.

Class of 2014 Employment Outcomes:

UVA:
BigLaw: 52.44%
Fed Clerk: 15.19%

Michigan:
BigLaw: 43.33%
Fed Clerk: 10.51%

Michigan is on LST: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/

[CanadianWolf]

Based on the numbers above, Virginia seems to be worth the extra money. Even moreso for one targeting DC or The South.

[everton125]

While I am not sure UVA is worth $45,000 over Michigan, it is probably worth more, particularly given the recent employment trends and OPs desire to work in DC. Based off of the 2014 employment outcomes, which are detailed below, I am not sure you we should be calling them peers any longer. A 14% BigLaw and FedClerk gap is considerable. Obviously BigLaw and Fed Clerk positions are not all that mater, but I am fairly confident UVA is beating Michigan on total employment as well. Unfortunately, Michigan is not on Law School Transparency so I can't provide the exact numbers.

Class of 2014 Employment Outcomes:

UVA:
BigLaw: 52.44%
Fed Clerk: 15.19%

Michigan:
BigLaw: 43.33%
Fed Clerk: 10.51%

Michigan is on LST: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/

My google/website searching abilities are obviously lacking today. Thanks.

[Clemenceau]

I'd take uva with parents paying as long as its no biggie for them.

On the MBA thing, I'm no expert but personally I wouldn't spend another year getting one if I already had a top 10 biz ug degree.

[everton125]

I have to make the call very, very soon.

UVA: $75,000 Scholarship
Michigan: $120,000 Scholarship

COA: The rest of the COA will be covered by the family, so I'm in a very fortunate position. If UVA isn't worth the extra $, however, I would hate to have my family pay for that extra dime.

Goals: Biglaw or Gov (DOJ, SEC, FTC, etc.)
Preferred markets: DC -> NYC -> Cali

Also, I'm considering JD/MBA. I believe Darden and Ross are pretty much peers, just like the law schools. I've visited and loved both schools' environments.

The only concerns I have about Michigan is its recent employment stats/trends. I've done my research, and I'm getting different feedback on this. Some say it's a short-term outlier/noise sort deal, and Michigan's #s will bounce back up. Others say it's more long-term for various reasons (i.e. Detroit, old-school prestige dwindling, etc.).

Since my goal is Biglaw or Gov, I'm thinking UVA may be worth the extra $45,000. Any advice/thoughts? Thanks.

Short term could still apply to just a four year time period, which is largely what matters for you. So even if it is a short term dip, it is still worth considering.

[jrthor10]

Mich definitely places far fewer graduates in DC than UVA does. However, some of that is self-selection, although certainly not all of it.

As a rising 3L at Mich it seemed like most people who wanted DC ended up in DC--albeit some of those individuals ended up doing PI/Gov't here after striking out at OCI.

IMO if DC is the only market you want to be in no matter what, UVA might be worth the extra 45K. If you might be willing to look elsewhere depending on grades (i.e. NYC) then I think Michigan is the correct choice.

[TasmanianToucan]

If the 45k is really a drop in the bucket for your parents, why not go UVA?

[abl]

While I am not sure UVA is worth $45,000 over Michigan, it is probably worth more, particularly given the recent employment trends and OPs desire to work in DC. Based off of the 2014 employment outcomes, which are detailed below, I am not sure you we should be calling them peers any longer. A 14% BigLaw and Fed Clerk gap is considerable. Obviously BigLaw and Fed Clerk positions are not all that mater, but UVA has a slight edge in total employment as well, per Law School Transparency.

If I were OP, I might just lean towards Michigan given the scholarship differences, but when you are going to be in debt regardless, there is also a lot to be said for going to a law school that gives you a 14% better chance of getting a job that will allow you to pay off your debt quickly. I would also add that, after a quick review, UVA's LRAP program seems to be marginally superior. This decision is not as black & white as some posters are making it out to be.

Class of 2014 Employment Outcomes:

UVA:
BigLaw: 52.44%
Fed Clerk: 15.19%
LST Employment Score: 94.3%

Michigan:
BigLaw: 43.33%
Fed Clerk: 10.51%
LST Employment Score: 90.3%

Edit: To reflect LST employment numbers because I originally did horribly searching

One year's worth of numbers doesn't mean that much. What do the three- or five- year averages look like? If a ~10% biglaw difference and ~5% clerkship difference persists over a multi-year time period, that may say something (probably about the schools' respective career services and primary markets, as I really don't think there is any meaningful reputational distinction between the schools).

Re: DC, without a doubt UVA students are much more likely to self-select into DC. This comes with good and bad things. UVA students are more likely to have connections and inroads into DC firms. They're also much more likely to face competition from their fellow students. On the whole, I expect this averages out to a slight edge for UVA in DC -- nothing nearly as big as what might be implied by DC "crawling" with UVA students, and probably not enough to justify all by itself paying $50,000 more, but something nevertheless.

I do think trends are worth keeping an eye on, and it does seem that Michigan's trend is not altogether in a positive direction. That said, I'd be pretty hesitant to ascribe much to any of this (just as I'd be hesitant to ascribe much to Penn's recent slight rise). You have to work pretty hard to find real differences between the mini-tiers in the top 14 (say, between UVA and Northwestern)--at least after HYS. It becomes even more ridiculous to start ranking the schools within these mini tiers. I think it absolutely could be worth $50,000 of family money to go to UVA over Michigan, especially if your family legitimately can afford to drop an extra $50k without blinking. Pay more to go to UVA because you like the vibe more, because you like the city more, because you like the weather more, or because you like some of its unique strengths or programs more. Don't pay an extra $50k expecting to get a meaningfully better education or to have meaningfully better outcomes.

[everton125]

While I am not sure UVA is worth $45,000 over Michigan, it is probably worth more, particularly given the recent employment trends and OPs desire to work in DC. Based off of the 2014 employment outcomes, which are detailed below, I am not sure you we should be calling them peers any longer. A 14% BigLaw and Fed Clerk gap is considerable. Obviously BigLaw and Fed Clerk positions are not all that mater, but UVA has a slight edge in total employment as well, per Law School Transparency.

If I were OP, I might just lean towards Michigan given the scholarship differences, but when you are going to be in debt regardless, there is also a lot to be said for going to a law school that gives you a 14% better chance of getting a job that will allow you to pay off your debt quickly. I would also add that, after a quick review, UVA's LRAP program seems to be marginally superior. This decision is not as black & white as some posters are making it out to be.

Class of 2014 Employment Outcomes:

UVA:
BigLaw: 52.44%
Fed Clerk: 15.19%
LST Employment Score: 94.3%

Michigan:
BigLaw: 43.33%
Fed Clerk: 10.51%
LST Employment Score: 90.3%

Edit: To reflect LST employment numbers because I originally did horribly searching

One year's worth of numbers doesn't mean that much. What do the three- or five- year averages look like? If a ~10% biglaw difference and ~5% clerkship difference persists over a multi-year time period, that may say something (probably about the schools' respective career services and primary markets, as I really don't think there is any meaningful reputational distinction between the schools).

Re: DC, without a doubt UVA students are much more likely to self-select into DC. This comes with good and bad things. UVA students are more likely to have connections and inroads into DC firms. They're also much more likely to face competition from their fellow students. On the whole, I expect this averages out to a slight edge for UVA in DC -- nothing nearly as big as what might be implied by DC "crawling" with UVA students, and probably not enough to justify all by itself paying $50,000 more, but something nevertheless.

I do think trends are worth keeping an eye on, and it does seem that Michigan's trend is not altogether in a positive direction. That said, I'd be pretty hesitant to ascribe much to any of this (just as I'd be hesitant to ascribe much to Penn's recent slight rise). You have to work pretty hard to find real differences between the mini-tiers in the top 14 (say, between UVA and Northwestern)--at least after HYS. It becomes even more ridiculous to start ranking the schools within these mini tiers. I think it absolutely could be worth $50,000 of family money to go to UVA over Michigan, especially if your family legitimately can afford to drop an extra $50k without blinking. Pay more to go to UVA because you like the vibe more, because you like the city more, because you like the weather more, or because you like some of its unique strengths or programs more. Don't pay an extra $50k expecting to get a meaningfully better education or to have meaningfully better outcomes.

Michigan's drop off with regards to employment outcomes is not a one year blip. I do think there are meaningfully better outcomes for those attending UVA over Michigan that are not entirely down to self-selection. There certainly were for the Class of 2014, even if those end up being long term highs.

[abcabc]

If the 45k is really a drop in the bucket for your parents, why not go UVA?

They offered to cover the cost, but I would hate for them (or anyone) to pay extra if it's absolutely not necessary given my career goals/outcome.

[TasmanianToucan]

If the 45k is really a drop in the bucket for your parents, why not go UVA?

They offered to cover the cost, but I would hate for them (or anyone) to pay extra if it's absolutely not necessary given my career goals/outcome.

I can only refer you back to the biglaw/fedclerk numbers and the placement locations of each school. It seems to me that UVA is at least somewhat better for your goals. The difficulty is putting a dollar value on that difference. While there definitely is a right and wrong answer for some people (for example if you were debt financing entirely Mich would be the obvious choice, and if your daddy was Bill Gates UVA would be equally obvious), you fall somewhere between these two extremes.

Either way, great outcome. Good luck!

[BruceWayne]

No school in the top 14 not named Harvard, Yale, or Stanford is worth $45K more than Michigan.

Well, that's a pretty big overstatement. But UVA, in particular, is not worth 45K more.

UMich is TCR here. And unless you have a compelling reason to do it, I would advise against the dual MBA, unless it is a combined three year program and doesn't cost you that much more.

It's not even a slight overstatement. Once you start going for these jobs you really start to understand that it's basically HYS then the rest of the top 14 are all just generally viewed as strong schools with variations by region. You learn that your grades are going to have a much bigger impact between these schools than anything else. And once you get out with big debt you learn just how much it sucks to have to subtract extra money out of your post tax income to pay for student loans every month. It SUCKS far more than the corresponding "boost" you get by attending say NYU over Michigan etc. That extra debt stays with you for years. The "boost" isn't even uniformly applicable.

[grizzlybear]

No school in the top 14 not named Harvard, Yale, or Stanford is worth $45K more than Michigan.

Well, that's a pretty big overstatement. But UVA, in particular, is not worth 45K more.

UMich is TCR here. And unless you have a compelling reason to do it, I would advise against the dual MBA, unless it is a combined three year program and doesn't cost you that much more.

It's not even a slight overstatement. Once you start going for these jobs you really start to understand that it's basically HYS then the rest of the top 14 are all just generally viewed as strong schools with variations by region. You learn that your grades are going to have a much bigger impact between these schools than anything else. And once you get out with big debt you learn just how much it sucks to have to subtract extra money out of your post tax income to pay for student loans every month. It SUCKS far more than the corresponding "boost" you get by attending say NYU over Michigan etc. That extra debt stays with you for years. The "boost" isn't even uniformly applicable.

Except the OP wont accrue any student debt...

[Traynor Brah]

No school in the top 14 not named Harvard, Yale, or Stanford is worth $45K more than Michigan.

Well, that's a pretty big overstatement. But UVA, in particular, is not worth 45K more.

UMich is TCR here. And unless you have a compelling reason to do it, I would advise against the dual MBA, unless it is a combined three year program and doesn't cost you that much more.

It's not even a slight overstatement. Once you start going for these jobs you really start to understand that it's basically HYS then the rest of the top 14 are all just generally viewed as strong schools with variations by region. You learn that your grades are going to have a much bigger impact between these schools than anything else. And once you get out with big debt you learn just how much it sucks to have to subtract extra money out of your post tax income to pay for student loans every month. It SUCKS far more than the corresponding "boost" you get by attending say NYU over Michigan etc. That extra debt stays with you for years. The "boost" isn't even uniformly applicable.

Agreed (to the bolded). If you're aiming for biglaw and you can assume good grades, then I am more inclined to agree with your original statement. But we cannot assume good grades, and median grades at UMich is a scary place to be. Median at Columbia? Not so much. If you're already going to take out six figures of debt for Michigan, taking out an extra 45K for a columbia or UChi, for example, is worth the placement security, at least to me.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/columbia/2014/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/2014/

[everton125]

No school in the top 14 not named Harvard, Yale, or Stanford is worth $45K more than Michigan.

Well, that's a pretty big overstatement. But UVA, in particular, is not worth 45K more.

UMich is TCR here. And unless you have a compelling reason to do it, I would advise against the dual MBA, unless it is a combined three year program and doesn't cost you that much more.

It's not even a slight overstatement. Once you start going for these jobs you really start to understand that it's basically HYS then the rest of the top 14 are all just generally viewed as strong schools with variations by region. You learn that your grades are going to have a much bigger impact between these schools than anything else. And once you get out with big debt you learn just how much it sucks to have to subtract extra money out of your post tax income to pay for student loans every month. It SUCKS far more than the corresponding "boost" you get by attending say NYU over Michigan etc. That extra debt stays with you for years. The "boost" isn't even uniformly applicable.

No, it is an overstatement. While it is obviously true that, once you have a BigLaw job, it is way better to only be $80,000 in debt rather than $125,000 in debt. It is far better to be $125,000 in debt and have a BigLaw job than $80,000 in debt and unemployed or with a non-BigLaw/non-LRAP qualifying job, particularly given the bimodal nature of legal salaries. And, as different schools in the T14 have drastically different employment statistics, going to one school or another may make it more likely you end up in scenario #2.

Yes, some of the differences are down to self-selection, but not all of them. Northwestern, Michigan, and Georgetown are seemingly behind the rest of the pack when it comes to BigLaw and overall employment statistics. For example, nearly 30% more people get BigLaw jobs out of Columbia than Michigan. That is certainly a difference worth 30-50K more if BigLaw is someone's aim, as you can finish in the bottom 25% at Columbia and still have a good shot at BigLaw, where you might be out of luck if you finish below the top 50% percent at Michigan.

[Mack.Hambleton]

If you were from VA and wanted to work in VA I'd say yes, but for your goals no they are peers.

Also wouldn't do an MBA from either of those schools.

[BillClinton Jr]

UVA easily. You're not paying for it and UVA is a better school with better numbers.

edit - make a poll

[BillClinton Jr]

If targeting The South or DC, then Virginia is worth the difference.

Based on placement statistics, I think that there are seven (7) Top 14 law schools worth $45,000 more than Michigan. (Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, NYU & Penn.)

[Mack.Hambleton]

Also +1 to above

I would pay that difference for CCCNP too

[sundance95]

I went to UVA and loved every minute of it.

You'd be a fool not to take the $45,000.

[michlaw]

UVA is worth the extra money for it's better outcome potentials. If it is something that your folks have and they want to help you then let them. Much better investment than say a new car. Money, if you have it, can actually be used for a purpose, and UVA would be a good use.