NYU Law ($$$$) vs. GW Law ($$$) Forum

03152016 · Post by **03152016** » Sat May 30, 2015 6:38 pm

cornell $/$$ = $200k debt for pi is a nightmare of epic proportions
far, far too expensive, extremely overhyped on this forum for pi where it has paltry placement
strong regional full ride makes infinitely more sense

hutz do you go to cornell

Hutz_and_Goodman · Post by **Hutz_and_Goodman** » Sat May 30, 2015 6:54 pm

PoopNpants wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Neither. Both are horrible options. Attend Cornell with $/$$ or a T30 with full scholarship.
How is this not most logical option? Re-apply, and while doing so re-take since you got one more take left, get that LSAT up a few points and prosper

Yes, reapply! Why not? But either of these choices is just absurd.

03152016 · Post by **03152016** » Sat May 30, 2015 7:11 pm

kinky is an incoming cornell student, and i think hutz is as well

it's fine to hype your school guys, but cornell with $200k debt is an objectively bad outcome here and op didn't even apply to cornell in the first place
dropping into every thread with "why not cornell?" doesn't actually help op

op, ignore the hype crew for a moment
don't take on $200k debt. cornell makes absolutely no sense at all. paltry pi placement and far too expensive. way overhyped lately, and now i can see why
pi salaries are likely around $50k starting and there's no guarantee you can lrap/pslf it away – remember how competitive the legal job market is even now
and pi hiring is not nearly as much of a preftige game as firm hiring (not that cornell has a strong reputation for pi anyways)
ties, commitment to pi, networking – those are your fundamentals, not a t14 label
$200k debt will be a heavy burden and will affect your life in every way. you'll have less flexibility because you'll need to have a decade of pslf-eligible employment, you'll have less financial stability and freedom, etc
cornell is just absolutely awful here. you must be able to separate out the good information from people trying to hype their schools

establish concrete and achievable goals, research local schools and full scholarships that can help you achieve those goals, avoid taking on completely unnecessary six-figure debt, and be happy

and avoid cornell like the plague

Kinky John · Post by **Kinky John** » Sat May 30, 2015 8:32 pm

Brut wrote:kinky is an incoming ~~cornell~~ Northwestern student, and i think hutz is as well

it's fine to hype your school guys, but cornell with $200k debt is an objectively bad outcome here and op didn't even apply to cornell in the first place
dropping into every thread with "why not cornell?" doesn't actually help op

op, ignore the hype crew for a moment
don't take on $200k debt. cornell makes absolutely no sense at all. paltry pi placement and far too expensive. way overhyped lately, and now i can see why
pi salaries are likely around $50k starting and there's no guarantee you can lrap/pslf it away – remember how competitive the legal job market is even now
and pi hiring is not nearly as much of a preftige game as firm hiring (not that cornell has a strong reputation for pi anyways)
ties, commitment to pi, networking – those are your fundamentals, not a t14 label
$200k debt will be a heavy burden and will affect your life in every way. you'll have less flexibility because you'll need to have a decade of pslf-eligible employment, you'll have less financial stability and freedom, etc
cornell is just absolutely awful here. you must be able to separate out the good information from people trying to hype their schools

establish concrete and achievable goals, research local schools and full scholarships that can help you achieve those goals, avoid taking on completely unnecessary six-figure debt, and be happy

and avoid cornell like the plague

Maybe we can just let OP clarify what their goals are? Seems like a good idea to me.

BigZuck · Post by **BigZuck** » Sat May 30, 2015 8:53 pm

BigZuck wrote:Can you flesh out what your specific career goals are?

What do you mean by public interest?

BUMP

Hutz_and_Goodman · Post by **Hutz_and_Goodman** » Sat May 30, 2015 9:05 pm

I'm a law school grad, and I graduated from a school outside the t14. My schtick is this: don't attend a law school when it doesn't make financial sense.

03152016 · Post by **03152016** » Sat May 30, 2015 9:09 pm

how does cornell make financial sense?

when op's question is nyu vs gw for pi, why is cornell of all places, 200k at repayment the answer

i'm genuinely interested in the answer

Kinky John · Post by **Kinky John** » Sat May 30, 2015 9:09 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:I'm a law school grad, and I graduated from a school outside the t14. My schtick is this: don't attend a law school when it doesn't make financial sense.

you forgot to mention the conspiracy we're a part of to promote Cor...

I've said too much

Hutz_and_Goodman · Post by **Hutz_and_Goodman** » Sat May 30, 2015 9:14 pm

Brut wrote:how does cornell make financial sense?

when op's question is nyu vs gw for pi, why is cornell of all places, 200k at repayment the answer

i'm genuinely interested in the answer

No idea what cornell would offer. Bc of cost of living and rank I assume it would be 50-100k cheaper than nyu. Make sense?

03152016 · Post by **03152016** » Sat May 30, 2015 9:20 pm

Kinky John wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:I'm a law school grad, and I graduated from a school outside the t14. My schtick is this: don't attend a law school when it doesn't make financial sense.
you forgot to mention the conspiracy we're a part of to promote Cor...

I've said too much

if you're not doing it to hype your school then you really have no excuse at all, which makes it much much worse imo
cornell isn't known for pi and is shockingly expensive, even with $$
hyping your school is one thing, because at least you have personal knowledge of it that other posters don't. but if we're just going to blindly reinforce the idea of t14 and bigdebt for posters where it doesn't make sense, it's much much worse

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
Brut wrote:how does cornell make financial sense?

when op's question is nyu vs gw for pi, why is cornell of all places, 200k at repayment the answer

i'm genuinely interested in the answer
No idea what cornell would offer. Bc of cost of living and rank I assume it would be 50-100k cheaper than nyu. Make sense?

with 90k you're still approaching the 200k mark, which i think is indefensible if you're going to be repaying with pi salary

to me, 200k, 250k, 300k, any of the three are far too much
so at that point, it doesn't really matter, it's going to be a bad outcome because you'll be saddled with debt you can never repay, and you'll have little flexibility because you have to do your 10 years of pslf eligible work

like, yes, there is a difference between 200k and 300k, but when you're paying it down with a 35k after tax salary there's no practical difference

03152016 · Post by **03152016** » Sat May 30, 2015 9:23 pm

and also that even assumes you'll be able to get the pslf work
i personally know of a t14 graduate, pi gunner, unable to find pslf qualifying legal employment
sure, she could expand to non-legal jobs, but if that was the outcome, why go to ls in the first place

twenty has a good thread somewhere on tls about this kind of stuff

Hutz_and_Goodman · Post by **Hutz_and_Goodman** » Sat May 30, 2015 9:36 pm

You're right, the difference of 100k is no biggie

Kinky John · Post by **Kinky John** » Sat May 30, 2015 9:39 pm

let me write this all lowercase so you can understand
your advice is sound, but we don't know op's exact goals
mostly pi could mean 51% pi 49% biglaw
it could also mean 99.9% pi and .1% space law

i'm not saying op should go to a lower t14 to rack up $200k in debt for pi
when we know op's goals, which zuck has already asked for, we can give better advice

hth

03152016 · Post by **03152016** » Sat May 30, 2015 9:54 pm

dude, come on
now you're just being a retard

"mostly pi" doesn't mean 49% biglaw
if that was the case, op would have simply written that they were deciding between biglaw and pi

if you're really having this much trouble understanding simple english, good luck on law school exams you idiot

PoopNpants · Post by **PoopNpants** » Sat May 30, 2015 10:01 pm

How the fuck did this thread get to 2 pages. OP isn't even responding.....

Kinky John · Post by **Kinky John** » Sat May 30, 2015 10:19 pm

PoopNpants wrote:How the fuck did this thread get to 2 pages. OP isn't even responding.....

Burt needs to have the last word. So long as we agree to stop responding, the thread should die.

/bye

03152016 · Post by **03152016** » Sat May 30, 2015 10:39 pm

is this irony
if you're posting literally just to say that i'll try to get the last word in and you're leaving the thread, that's you trying to get the last word in
you can continue to participate or not, doesn't matter to me. just don't pretend that ignoring the substantive conversation, getting in your last insults, and then covering your ears like a child is taking the high road

also, i don't agree to stop replying to the thread. the world doesn't revolve around you, despite what you think
there are good points being made. the thread shouldn't die just because you predictably said a number of idiotic things that you're embarrassed about now

since you're pretending to be gone from this thread, hopefully now we can get back on topic

03152016 · Post by **03152016** » Sat May 30, 2015 10:50 pm

since we're hopefully back on topic now, here's the thread i was talking about earlier

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=220431

relevant excerpt:

You will hear this over and over again. Your grades do not matter. Your school ranking on USNWR does not matter. This is the hardest part for people to overcome -- all that work you did on the LSAT, all that debt you took out to go to a T14 school, and all those sleepless nights you put in during 1L to get decent grades are now wasted. Obviously you can't get Cs at a TTTT and expect to go work for the SEC, but there is very, very little difference between a A- average student at Cornell and a B student at Mercer in terms of low-prestige government/PI hiring.

The biggest thing you have to do to get into public interest is hustle.

You must never stop hustling. Spend your last free summer working as a volunteer in an area related to the PI field you want to work in. Spend your 1L year (yes, 1L year) volunteering. Spend your 1L summer volunteering. Spend the winter break between semesters... you get it. A cooperative career services office is critical in this process.

If you want to work for the government, veteran's status helps tremendously*. Three or more years of prior full-time experience will also help you a lot.** If you want to work for a PI organization, everyone in the office should know your name, your dog's birthday, and your favorite color. I can not stress this enough. People complain about how insanely slow PI hiring is, but if you know people on the inside that can speak to your work product and dedication, it's like putting metaphorical rockets on a snail.

The federal government puts up 1-week long postings for jobs in order to meet administrative requirements, but they definitely already have someone in mind. Be that someone.

How does this affect my school choices?

IN MY PERSONAL OPINION you are better off going to law school in a large metro area with a strong career services office than a law school in a ruralish area with a weak career services office. Here's why.

1) Big metro areas are far more likely to provide you with local PI gigs than are small township areas. Also, big cities tend to care less about regional ties (yes, this is a thing in PI as well) than do small towns.
2) A strong career services office that has a vested interest in getting you into a volunteer PI gig is going to be essential. I have yet to see a T20 school that doesn't have a strong CSO, though there are plenty of T2 schools that meet this description.

I don't really believe you when you say the school name doesn't matter.

Here's how the government hiring system [OPM model] works.

Your application (resume) gets sent to a round 1 hiring person. If you meet the minimum requirements for the job, you move on to round 2. This is basically almost everyone.

In round 2, your application is awarded points, and a new resume is created. Your new resume is a score card in which you are given a 1 to 100 score based on your first resume. You get points based on your competency related to the job you post for. You get 0 points for going to Harvard over McGeorge. This scorecard is forwarded on to round 3.

In round 3, your future boss will evaluate the scorecards and interview people in order of highest to lowest points. They usually have a cut-off of people they just won't interview. That could be below the top 3 candidates, or top 20. Does it help if you know this future boss by his first name and have been to his house for Thanksgiving? Absolutely. In short, if your future employer does not take the most qualified application (number 1), they must justify why they chose a less-qualified candidate. The employer is not going to do this for "some guy who volunteered at a non-profit during his 1L summer."

But HYS + Chicago and Berkeley!

HYS, Chicago and Berkeley all enjoy a very minor advantage in PI hiring (especially black-box hiring like DoJ) because their grades are unconverted. This tiny advantage makes no difference at 99% of PI/Govt jobs. For the most competitive PI/Govt jobs (particularly DoJ), this distinction sets these students apart from the hordes of other candidates looking to snag one of these spots.

*you get an extra 5 points, even above the 100 point total, for veteran's preference
**status is like tenure. This happens in federal, local and state government spots. You are vastly more competitive for these positions if you have this background.

Open to all helpful thoughts, angry rage-filled comments, and ideas.

and a related twenty thread on lrap programs
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=211835

03152016 · Post by **03152016** » Sat May 30, 2015 10:53 pm

i don't think its quite as black and white as twenty is making out based on my convos with practitioners
then again, he's coming from it from a gov't agency perspective
there are certain positions, some of which i mentioned earlier, where i think it's helpful to attend a top school. but most of the time, minimizing debt, staying in your market, and showing commitment really is key

snagglepuss · Post by **snagglepuss** » Sat May 30, 2015 11:07 pm

I really can't tell; is this all an act, Brut? Or do you really get this riled up about law school advice? You often come off like you believe you're the only person giving even vaguely sensible advice. You seem to mock others and their advice until they throw in the towel - this often makes you look unhinged. I think everyone would appreciate if you recognized you're only one voice on this forum and that some other posters have valid input, too.

This is a dead thread; please let this go until OP reappears.
I don't have a problem with you. Please PM me if you disagree with my observations.

03152016 · Post by **03152016** » Sat May 30, 2015 11:19 pm

stop derailing the topic
this is something you could have PMed me about if you really wanted a serious discussion
there is absolutely no reason to turn an on-topic thread into a thread about an individual user's posting styles unless you're just seeking drama

[this sentence removed at the request of another poster]
however, i stand by all of it. if you take issue with any of my arguments, address the arguments. this isn't the lounge, you're not going to turn this into a call-out thread.

i've been critical of other people's posts and i've pushed back when they've clearly insulted me. if you find that offensive, you can PM me, post in the lounge, post in the mod thread or PM the mods, block me, or simply not read the thread. we don't need to play this drama out in an on-topic thread

again, happy to discuss any of the substantive points i've made, or other posters have made

stego · Post by **stego** » Sun May 31, 2015 1:37 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:You're right, the difference of 100k is no biggie

the point is $200k and $300k are both non-starters.

Wild Card · Post by **Wild Card** » Sun May 31, 2015 3:10 am

aclang24 wrote:I didn't apply to Cornell, but I applied to Georgetown, Penn, and Columbia, but they all waitlisted me. When I put down my first deposit for GW, I had to bow out of consideration at the other schools that had admitted me. I'll have to take out loans either way, but I think it would be far more manageable at GW.

Do any of you know about the overall environment at NYU, or if I would be able to apply again for some sort of scholarship after my first year there?

http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... rency.aspx
http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... power.aspx

"... law schools may not require applicants to withdraw from schools from which they have not yet received a decision as a condition of accepting a scholarship or any other type of offer."

WokeUpInACar · Post by **WokeUpInACar** » Sun May 31, 2015 3:38 am

Wild Card wrote:
aclang24 wrote:I didn't apply to Cornell, but I applied to Georgetown, Penn, and Columbia, but they all waitlisted me. When I put down my first deposit for GW, I had to bow out of consideration at the other schools that had admitted me. I'll have to take out loans either way, but I think it would be far more manageable at GW.

Do any of you know about the overall environment at NYU, or if I would be able to apply again for some sort of scholarship after my first year there?
http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... rency.aspx
http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... power.aspx

"... law schools may not require applicants to withdraw from schools from which they have not yet received a decision as a condition of accepting a scholarship or any other type of offer."

03152016 · Post by **03152016** » Sun May 31, 2015 3:57 am

yea having to withdraw from other schools when you deposit is pretty common afaik

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