Columbia vs Berkeley Forum

[Big Dog]

agree that UVa is the best financial value and would be great for DC. But, OP wants to land in the Bay Area and the only chance for BA is is Boalt. URM should help during OCI, but without ties, OP may still strike out with BA firms, could miss DC from Berkeley, and then end up in NYC. (Of course, a three-city bid strategy is really stretching it.)

[jemthey17]

Go to Berkeley

Also with your numbers and URM, is Stanford still a possibility?

Would Stanford be a good decision in this case, if OP has full rides to UVA and Michigan on the table? Genuinely asking, have no knowledge in this arena.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Go to Berkeley

Also with your numbers and URM, is Stanford still a possibility?

Would Stanford be a good decision in this case, if OP has full rides to UVA and Michigan on the table? Genuinely asking, have no knowledge in this arena.

Depends on aid, at sticker no imo

[chuckbass]

Go to Berkeley

Also with your numbers and URM, is Stanford still a possibility?

Would Stanford be a good decision in this case, if OP has full rides to UVA and Michigan on the table? Genuinely asking, have no knowledge in this arena.

Depends on aid, at sticker no imo

I figured OP would get some aid at least if they're debt-financing everything. But yeah with good aid I'd take Stanford if I wanted to work in SF/DC.

[XxSpyKEx]

I don't think this is even a close question here. UVA or Michigan are the best options a long shot, since they're free. You can pretty much go do whatever you want if you go to school for free, since you won't be strapped repaying student loans. Good luck repaying $105k without biglaw, if you go to Berkley, bid on SF without ties, and strike out at OCI... Not to mention if you're long-term goal is to work at a nonprofit or fed govt, why not just go to UVA or Michigan and skip biglaw altogether? Biglaw is pretty miserable.

He'll be paying back like 50-70k in cost of living loans if he goes to Michigan or UVA.

Overall good post though. OP needs to seriously ask why he cares so much about living near SF. 40k in tuition is a lot to pay for a tie to a city, especially when it's far from a guarantee you'll even end up there.

OP said "full ride" and "free," so I'm assuming that means he has a full-ride, and not merely a tuition scholarship. Note that he also listed " total Cost of Attendance (COA)" of each school, which includes "cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships," so logically it doesn't make much sense for UVA and Michigan to merely be tuition scholarships. (I didn't know UVA did full-rides, but it's been a few years since I went to law school, so I don't really know at this point.) Also, cost of living at UVA or Michigan can be done for less than $50k total (they are both located in pretty low COL cities), but that's neither here nor there.

[Tiago Splitter]

Doubt he has all tuition and everything else paid for by the school but if so OP should clarify.

[Mack.Hambleton]

UVA full ride includes fees. Most Michigan full rides this year include a 10k yr living stipend as well

[BiglawAssociate]

UVA full ride includes fees. Most Michigan full rides this year include a 10k yr living stipend as well

Stipend? It's like a PhD program. Also isn't OP's family in Ann Arbor or somewhere around there? Just go to Michigan, live at home, and you might make money off of law school.

[BruceWayne]

If you want to work in SF then Boalt is basically the only option. Especially with their excellent low risk grading system. That being said, turning down UVA and Michigan for free is borderline insane if HYS aren't on the table. That approach is one thing for undergrad but that's not the right approach for professional school. Especially law and specially for someone who wants to clerk and then do biglaw.

The grading system at boalt is not "especially low risk"

Wth are you talking about? Their grading system doesn't allow employers to distinguish between someone with median grades from someone who gets B-'s. That's a huge deal.

That said it's still not as big a deal as going to UVA or Michigan for free. There's just too much that you gain from going to a top 14 for free in terms of post graduation QOL. Boalt with loans shouldn't even be on the table.

[jlwx]

I have a Darrow and Dillard. Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for the responses.

[Tiago Splitter]

I have a Darrow and Dillard. Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for the responses.

Does this mean zero or only nominal loans at either Michigan or UVA? If so I definitely wouldn't go to Berkeley.

[Clemenceau]

So OP: you want to clerk, work in DC, and were offered a Dillard

and yet...

Virginia doesn't seem like it'd be a good fit for me

Explain yoself

edit: sorry, reread the first page. Still not buying your argument though

[XxSpyKEx]

I have a Darrow and Dillard. Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for the responses.

Does this mean zero or only nominal loans at either Michigan or UVA?

Pretty much:

UVA full ride includes fees. Most Michigan full rides this year include a 10k yr living stipend as well

[Tiago Splitter]

Fees doesn't mean living expenses, or at least that's how I've come to understand it. I guess it's gotta be Michigan then unless the Dillard has also added some spending cash as part of the winnings

[XxSpyKEx]

If you want to work in SF then Boalt is basically the only option. Especially with their excellent low risk grading system. That being said, turning down UVA and Michigan for free is borderline insane if HYS aren't on the table. That approach is one thing for undergrad but that's not the right approach for professional school. Especially law and specially for someone who wants to clerk and then do biglaw.

The grading system at boalt is not "especially low risk"

Wth are you talking about? Their grading system doesn't allow employers to distinguish between someone with median grades from someone who gets B-'s. That's a huge deal.

That said it's still not as big a deal as going to UVA or Michigan for free. There's just too much that you gain from going to a top 14 for free in terms of post graduation QOL. Boalt with loans shouldn't even be on the table.

I think it's often viewed as a huge negative to Berkley as well. Fact is that they're not Yale of Stanford where everyone is going to do well. If you're the type of person who falls around median in every single class, it effectively means your grades are going to put you at the bottom of your class (you need Hs and HHs to distinguish yourself). I think Berkley's grading system really hurt a lot of students during recessions as well, which is another thing worth considering since we're probably only another year or two away from another recession (they tend to fall every 7-8 years or so, and the last one was in 2009).

But I agree with your re: your bigger point of going to UVA or Michigan for free. Berkley is a peer school to UVA and Michigan, so I don't really understand why anyone would pay $105k to attend Berkley when they could go to UVA or Michigan for free, especially in a situation like this one where the OP doesn't even have any ties to CA.

[XxSpyKEx]

Fees doesn't mean living expenses, or at least that's how I've come to understand it. I guess it's gotta be Michigan then unless the Dillard has also added some spending cash as part of the winnings

Yeah it doesn't include living expenses. Although, imagine it can't cost that much to live 8 months a year in Charlottesville. But I'd take the Darrow at Michigan in a heartbeat. I think the only real debatable issue here is whether Columbia is worth paying $150k to attend instead of going to Michigan. Arguably it might be if OP was die hard NYC biglaw or fed clerkship. That doesn't seem to be the case, so I think Michigan is pretty clearly the right answer. I could understand taking out a small amount of debt to go to UVA (for a change of pace, or whatever), but $105k to go to Berkley makes little sense (especially without ties to CA).

[Redamon1]

Fees doesn't mean living expenses, or at least that's how I've come to understand it. I guess it's gotta be Michigan then unless the Dillard has also added some spending cash as part of the winnings

Yeah it doesn't include living expenses. Although, imagine it can't cost that much to live 8 months a year in Charlottesville. But I'd take the Darrow at Michigan in a heartbeat. I think the only real debatable issue here is whether Columbia is worth paying $150k to attend instead of going to Michigan. Arguably it might be if OP was die hard NYC biglaw or fed clerkship. That doesn't seem to be the case, so I think Michigan is pretty clearly the right answer. I could understand taking out a small amount of debt to go to UVA (for a change of pace, or whatever), but $105k to go to Berkley makes little sense (especially without ties to CA).

Especially without ties to CA? You've got it backwards. Boalt gives you all the ties to the Bay Area you need to work here. That's the point. You should pick Boalt especially if you want to work in the Bay Area and you DONT have ties.

[BiglawAssociate]

But I agree with your re: your bigger point of going to UVA or Michigan for free. Berkley is a peer school to UVA and Michigan, so I don't really understand why anyone would pay $105k to attend Berkley when they could go to UVA or Michigan for free, especially in a situation like this one where the OP doesn't even have any ties to CA.

To answer your question, I'm pretty sure a person who has no sense of money or finances would pay 105k to go to Berkeley over full rides at UVA/Michigan. To work what? A shitty biglaw job in California. Biglaw is shit no matter where you are. You won't even have enough free time to enjoy California because you will be spending most of your time at work or working from home.

This isn't even a serious question to me. I'd go for the $$$$$$$$$.

[XxSpyKEx]

Fees doesn't mean living expenses, or at least that's how I've come to understand it. I guess it's gotta be Michigan then unless the Dillard has also added some spending cash as part of the winnings

Yeah it doesn't include living expenses. Although, imagine it can't cost that much to live 8 months a year in Charlottesville. But I'd take the Darrow at Michigan in a heartbeat. I think the only real debatable issue here is whether Columbia is worth paying $150k to attend instead of going to Michigan. Arguably it might be if OP was die hard NYC biglaw or fed clerkship. That doesn't seem to be the case, so I think Michigan is pretty clearly the right answer. I could understand taking out a small amount of debt to go to UVA (for a change of pace, or whatever), but $105k to go to Berkley makes little sense (especially without ties to CA).

Especially without ties to CA? You've got it backwards. Boalt gives you all the ties to the Bay Area you need to work here. That's the point. You should pick Boalt especially if you want to work in the Bay Area and you DONT have ties.

This is incredibly risky and foolish, though. SF firms care about ties, and solely attending law school in the bay area isn't going to establish that. I mean, sure, if you do awesome and Berkley, firms will definitely be willing to look the other direction re: your lack of ties to the area. But if you fall below median (which there's a 49.9% chance you'll do), you're probably in trouble, and I'm sure he'll kicking himself knowing the alternative was to go to Michigan for FREE. You honestly have to be an idiot "no sense of money or finances" to spend an additional $105k to attend Berkley because you think you want to be in SF (how can he even know that he wants to live there without ever having spent any appreciable amount of time there?) over going to a peer school for FREE.

But I agree with your re: your bigger point of going to UVA or Michigan for free. Berkley is a peer school to UVA and Michigan, so I don't really understand why anyone would pay $105k to attend Berkley when they could go to UVA or Michigan for free, especially in a situation like this one where the OP doesn't even have any ties to CA.

To answer your question, I'm pretty sure a person who has no sense of money or finances would pay 105k to go to Berkeley over full rides at UVA/Michigan. To work what? A shitty biglaw job in California. Biglaw is shit no matter where you are. You won't even have enough free time to enjoy California because you will be spending most of your time at work or working from home.

This isn't even a serious question to me. I'd go for the $$$$$$$$$.

+1.

[rpupkin]

But I agree with your re: your bigger point of going to UVA or Michigan for free. Berkley is a peer school to UVA and Michigan, so I don't really understand why anyone would pay $105k to attend Berkley when they could go to UVA or Michigan for free, especially in a situation like this one where the OP doesn't even have any ties to CA.

To answer your question, I'm pretty sure a person who has no sense of money or finances would pay 105k to go to Berkeley over full rides at UVA/Michigan. To work what? A shitty biglaw job in California. Biglaw is shit no matter where you are.

Maybe. But is California biglaw a little less shitty than NYC big law?

I'm not asking rhetorically. I've never worked in NYC. For years, I assumed that the associates-are-worked-to-death-in-NYC thing was basically a flame—associates more or less work the same everywhere. But I've heard enough NYC horror stories of late to make me question whether there's some truth to the stereotype.

[mkn888]

You are all looking at this the wrong way. Berkeley participates in scholarship matching with UMich. If OP is correctly indicating that he was offered a full-ride at Michigan, then he would get a comparable boost in his scholarship offer from Berkeley. That changes everything; he can go to Berkeley for almost free if he leverages his offers correctly.

Long-term interest in the Bay Area + minimal loan debt? It's a TLSer's dream bundled together in one school.

Link to Scholarship Matching on Boalt's website: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6957.htm

/end thread

[Tiago Splitter]

You are all looking at this the wrong way. Berkeley participates in scholarship matching with UMich. If OP is correctly indicating that he was offered a full-ride at Michigan, then he would get a comparable boost in his scholarship offer from Berkeley. That changes everything; he can go to Berkeley for almost free if he leverages his offers correctly.

Long-term interest in the Bay Area + minimal loan debt? It's a TLSer's dream bundled together in one school.

Link to Scholarship Matching on Boalt's website: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6957.htm

/end thread

Berkeley only matches about 1/3 of the time. If he can get tuition down to zero rather than the 40k or so he'd owe Berk over three years then I agree it becomes a more reasonable choice, but that's far from a guarantee. And he'd still be looking at only 20k or so in debt from Michigan compared to around 60k from Berk.

Paying a lot more for Berkeley would make sense if Berk guaranteed a job in Northern California, but it doesn't. I'm more willing than XxspykexX to say that Berk makes sense if OP actually wants to live there (despite having spent so little time there) but the current offers are too far apart and unfortunately Berk's matching program guarantees nothing.

[XxSpyKEx]

You are all looking at this the wrong way. Berkeley participates in scholarship matching with UMich. If OP is correctly indicating that he was offered a full-ride at Michigan, then he would get a comparable boost in his scholarship offer from Berkeley. That changes everything; he can go to Berkeley for almost free if he leverages his offers correctly.

Long-term interest in the Bay Area + minimal loan debt? It's a TLSer's dream bundled together in one school.

Link to Scholarship Matching on Boalt's website: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6957.htm

/end thread

Berkeley only matches about 1/3 of the time. If he can get tuition down to zero rather than the 40k or so he'd owe Berk over three years then I agree it becomes a more reasonable choice, but that's far from a guarantee. And he'd still be looking at only 20k or so in debt from Michigan compared to around 60k from Berk.

Paying a lot more for Berkeley would make sense if Berk guaranteed a job in Northern California, but it doesn't. I'm more willing than XxspykexX to say that Berk makes sense if OP actually wants to live there (despite having spent so little time there) but the current offers are too far apart and unfortunately Berk's matching program guarantees nothing.

Probably closer to $0 from Michigan. Ann Arbor is really cheap--you can live 8 months off $10k there no prob. 2L SA money also leaves at least around $10-15k of spending of money for 3L year (assuming OP gets a biglaw SA). I agree that Berkley would be more reasonable if OP got a full-tuition scholarship there (the debt would be pretty manageable if he manages to keep it below $50k, even if he doesn't get biglaw, and it's an opportunity to try out a different experience, which isn't worth $105k, but $50k isn't as bad. I'd still take free at Michigan over $50k at Berkley, but I don't think going to Berkley would be crazy in that situation).

[tapenade]

You are all looking at this the wrong way. Berkeley participates in scholarship matching with UMich. If OP is correctly indicating that he was offered a full-ride at Michigan, then he would get a comparable boost in his scholarship offer from Berkeley. That changes everything; he can go to Berkeley for almost free if he leverages his offers correctly.

Long-term interest in the Bay Area + minimal loan debt? It's a TLSer's dream bundled together in one school.

Link to Scholarship Matching on Boalt's website: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6957.htm

/end thread

Berkeley only matches about 1/3 of the time. If he can get tuition down to zero rather than the 40k or so he'd owe Berk over three years then I agree it becomes a more reasonable choice, but that's far from a guarantee. And he'd still be looking at only 20k or so in debt from Michigan compared to around 60k from Berk.

Paying a lot more for Berkeley would make sense if Berk guaranteed a job in Northern California, but it doesn't. I'm more willing than XxspykexX to say that Berk makes sense if OP actually wants to live there (despite having spent so little time there) but the current offers are too far apart and unfortunately Berk's matching program guarantees nothing.

Probably closer to $0 from Michigan. Ann Arbor is really cheap--you can live 8 months off $10k there no prob. 2L SA money also leaves at least around $10-15k of spending of money for 3L year (assuming OP gets a biglaw SA). I agree that Berkley would be more reasonable if OP got a full-tuition scholarship there (the debt would be pretty manageable if he manages to keep it below $50k, even if he doesn't get biglaw, and it's an opportunity to try out a different experience, which isn't worth $105k, but $50k isn't as bad. I'd still take free at Michigan over $50k at Berkley, but I don't think going to Berkley would be crazy in that situation).

0L with not much to add, but I have a question about the Darrow. Is the stipend paid annually? I remember reading (maybe on LSD or Xo) that the stipend was disbursed only once during 1L Summer. Either way its generous, just wondering.

[honey]

Congrats on your amazing offers! Echoing what's been said, your best option might be the full rides you have: I would think less about where you want to be for three years, and more where you want to be for 30. If you're intent upon a specific location, pick the school among those four that best sets you up to work there. Don't worry about rankings, the differences between all of those schools are minor outside of their home markets. Each of your options is good!