GULC vs. Vandy vs. UVA Forum

[neeksneeks]

The 105K is the scholarship offer I got from GULC. With COL taken into account, it would be about 135K in loans. Which, to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure i'm entirely comfortable taking out.

are you debt financing everything
or are you/your family paying partly out of pocket

I've got some money saved up from the three years that I've been working since I graduated undergrad, but for the most part, it'll all be loans.

how much are you paying out of pocket
i'll re-run the numbers

I could manage to pay probably about an extra $15K total.

[neeksneeks]

I would love to go to UVA, but it appears they've run out of scholarship money...And in hindsight, perhaps I should have looked more into Duke. But I didn't.

Please reapply & (possibly) consider retaking for a few points. Do the all extra essays and emphasize your interest. No reason you shouldn't be getting decent $$.

And don't ED UVA lol

I already retook my LSAT. I took it once in June 2012, got a 159. And then retook it in February 2013 and got the 170.

UVA's lack of scholly actually really surprised me, given that I've had my acceptance since the middle of November. Seems like they should have held my app longer if they weren't planning to give any money? idk, I think I've tried to psychoanalyze these admissions counselors way too much already.

[03152016]

corrected another minor mistake cost inflation mistake, the number should be correct now, i double checked it
with 15k paid out of pocket in year 1, you're at 157,625
that's a little steep to pay for gulc, imo

[runinthefront]

I would take Vandy over all of these choices at their current price

I can't believe people ITT are suggesting UVA at sticker--even for clerkship goals

what the fuck

[neeksneeks]

corrected another minor mistake cost inflation mistake, the number should be correct now, i double checked it
with 15k paid out of pocket in year 1, you're at 157,625
that's a little steep to pay for gulc, imo

Thank you for running all these numbers! I also personally think that GULC lowballs their COL assumptions, compared to Vandy. For instance, Vandy budgets $460/mo for food. GULC budgets $380/month.

So it would seem that the COL estimates for Vandy are too high or GULC's are too low. Which means that $157k could/likely would be even higher.

[exitoptions]

No school at full price is ever the credited response. Maybe it once was 10 years ago, but not now.

[neeksneeks]

I would take Vandy over all of these choices at their current price

I can't believe people ITT are suggesting UVA at sticker--even for clerkship goals

what the fuck

As far as clerkship goals, from what I can discern from ABA employment data, it looks like I would have a better shot at a clerkship at Vandy than at GULC. Not to say that UVA wouldn't have even BETTER outcomes, but that's just not a realistic goal for me at this point.

[Clemenceau]

3.8/170 tho

You gotta start from scratch next cycle my dude

Also, don't be so fickle about where you apply to/withdraw from. Blanket the t14 and fill out every damn financial aid form as if you fully intend to go there

[03152016]

i think your gulc aid amount is about in the expected range
average reported amounts for numbers in those range among people who get grants:
$90k from duke, $130k from northwestern, $140k from cornell, $90k from gulc
(via mylsn.info/lawschoolnumbers.com, searched 170/3.74-3.86 2012-14 cycles)

you mentioned clerking or working on the business/finance end of things
so that's basically biglaw/fedclerk

cornell 68.4% biglaw/fedclerk placement
$113,512 debt at repayment assuming 3.79% tuition inflation and 2% col inflation, same loan interest/fees as above, $140k scholarship and $15k out of pocket

northwestern 63.4% biglaw/fedclerk placement
$118,019 debt at repayment assuming 3.22% tuition inflation and 2% col inflation, same loan interest/fees as above, $130k scholarship and $15k out of pocket

duke 60.2% biglaw/fedclerk placement
$162,004 debt at repayment assuming 3.89% tuition inflation and 2% col inflation, same loan interest/fees as above, $90k scholarship and $15k out of pocket

gulc 46.5% biglaw/fedclerk placement
$157,625 debt at repayment assuming 4.18% tuition inflation and 2% col inflation, same loan interest/fees as above, $105k scholarship and $15 out of pocket

even if you're happy with the gulc numbers, remember not to withdraw from any more schools
when you withdraw or fail to apply, you lose leverage in scholarship negotiations
for example, it's possible your $105k offer from gulc will persuade uva to give you some $$
but a $130k offer from nu (which is very possible given your numbers) would give you significantly more leverage

[tacocat]

3.8/170 tho

You gotta start from scratch next cycle my dude

Also, don't be so fickle about where you apply to/withdraw from. Blanket the t14 and fill out every damn financial aid form as if you fully intend to go there

Exactly. And a couple other things that I don't think have been asked yet: Did you do the optional essays for any/all of these schools? How strong are your letters of recommendation? With numbers like yours and applications sent fairly early in the cycle, there has to be other peripheral reasons why you got the proverbial shaft. It's only like 6 or 7 months until next cycle's applications open up. Wait, blanket the T14, do all the optional essays, and negotiate. Don't sell yourself short and take on $150k in debt that you shouldn't have to take on.

eta: based on Brut's research ^, OP's allergic reaction to the thought of living in upstate NY, and OP's prior work experience, Northwestern looks pretty good. But yeah...apply everywhere for leverage.

[TLSModBot]

UVA sticker is better than 105k at GULC? Wut

yeah this. it should be an auto perma ban to advise someone to debt finance sticker cost at UVA

But you made serious tactical mistakes in not applying/withdrawing from Duke and Cornell. Even if you didnt want to go, those schools are the ticket to getting you better offers.

That said, if 105K is your full COA at GTown, I think that is a fair price to pay. It's not ideal and you could do better with another cycle and a retake, but I wouldn't say taking that offer is a bad decision. Do not consider Vandy with that scholarship; they really low-balled you.

FFS Zombie - eat a dick. Of course someone suggesting sticker at a t10 is dumb, it should obvi be t6 or bust. Unless someone suggests that, then they should go hang themselves for having suggested anything lower than HYS.

Considering rest of tuition and DC Coa with things op was interested in (like getting a clerkship), UVA is the better of the non-retake choices. Unless you're completely backtracking on your whole 'look at gulc's employment numbers it's a dumpster fire' shtick.

That being said OP: if you're debt averse, then none of the original choices are ideal as others have stated above

[BigZuck]

I doubt it's all that much easier to get a clerkship from UVA than GULC and clerkship is a silly goal anyway. If the OP wants that they should go to YS. But yeah, suggesting UVA at sticker over 100K scholarship at GULC was dumb, there's no getting around that.

OP- You goofed at many turns and your cycle didn't go as well as it should have. Withdraw (politely), retake in June, reapply in September, and have a proper cycle.

[neeksneeks]

I doubt it's all that much easier to get a clerkship from UVA than GULC and clerkship is a silly goal anyway. If the OP wants that they should go to YS. But yeah, suggesting UVA at sticker over 100K scholarship at GULC was dumb, there's no getting around that.

OP- You goofed at many turns and your cycle didn't go as well as it should have. Withdraw (politely), retake in June, reapply in September, and have a proper cycle.

In hindsight, I definitely made some tactical errors. But retaking isn't an option. I have already taken the LSAT twice, and the more recent time was more than two years ago. Given the amount of time that has passed, I have no reason to believe I would do any better on a third try.

With my goal of graduating with as little debt as possible, I'm thinking I can live more frugally in Nashville and save myself the dough.

Also, as far as clerkship placements go, I think I've got a better shot with Vanderbilt than I do with GULC. (9.2% compared to 5%, as of 2013) Obviously UVA is better with 12.9%, but not when it comes at a price of $240K?

[TheSpanishMain]

UVA sticker is better than 105k at GULC? Wut

yeah this. it should be an auto perma ban to advise someone to debt finance sticker cost at UVA

But you made serious tactical mistakes in not applying/withdrawing from Duke and Cornell. Even if you didnt want to go, those schools are the ticket to getting you better offers.

That said, if 105K is your full COA at GTown, I think that is a fair price to pay. It's not ideal and you could do better with another cycle and a retake, but I wouldn't say taking that offer is a bad decision. Do not consider Vandy with that scholarship; they really low-balled you.

FFS Zombie - eat a dick. Of course someone suggesting sticker at a t10 is dumb, it should obvi be t6 or bust. Unless someone suggests that, then they should go hang themselves for having suggested anything lower than HYS.

I think people are reacting to the whole "pay sticker" part, not the UVA part. Different people strokes for different folks and all, but I can't imagine ever paying sticker for any law school ever.

[landshoes]

.

[TLSModBot]

UVA sticker is better than 105k at GULC? Wut

yeah this. it should be an auto perma ban to advise someone to debt finance sticker cost at UVA

But you made serious tactical mistakes in not applying/withdrawing from Duke and Cornell. Even if you didnt want to go, those schools are the ticket to getting you better offers.

That said, if 105K is your full COA at GTown, I think that is a fair price to pay. It's not ideal and you could do better with another cycle and a retake, but I wouldn't say taking that offer is a bad decision. Do not consider Vandy with that scholarship; they really low-balled you.

FFS Zombie - eat a dick. Of course someone suggesting sticker at a t10 is dumb, it should obvi be t6 or bust. Unless someone suggests that, then they should go hang themselves for having suggested anything lower than HYS.

I think people are reacting to the whole "pay sticker" part, not the UVA part. Different people strokes for different folks and all, but I can't imagine ever paying sticker for any law school ever.

Reminding everyone that my original post actually agreed - retake/reapply is best choice for $. I initially said UVA was the best of his (admittedly imperfect) options, yes even over GULC $.

Here's the thing: it'd be great if everyone could get decent $ at top schools. Many people here operate like that is both A) personally obtainable for each applicant and B) sustainable somehow for the law school model. I don't make those assumptions, and think people should be willing to (gasp) take a goddamn risk while educating themselves first about their goals and realistic chances of obtaining them and paying for it all.

Obviously sticker at, say, American, is stupid. NOT because it's expensive on face but because the risk/reward scenario is generally bad for a majority of similarly situated folks. I think we agree on principle but draw the lines differently.

I am absolutely incredulous at the 'no UVA at sticker ever' hardline. This CAN'T be b/c of employment numbers - have you seen how well UVA does compared to its lower t14 brethren? Its clerkship rate appears to be higher than even some of its higher ranked t14 compatriots.

So: it's either something insidiously awful about UVA of which I'm not aware because I don't go there, OR it's the old hardline 'don't go sticker anywhere because law school is expensive and I'm a risk-averse whiner blarg blarg blarg'. The former I'd be interested in hearing about, the latter I understand but is not SO CLEARLY the one true way that it deserves such hyperbolic rhetoric.

So I reiterate: Zombie go eat a dick.

[middlebear]

3.8/170 tho

You gotta start from scratch next cycle my dude

Also, don't be so fickle about where you apply to/withdraw from. Blanket the t14 and fill out every damn financial aid form as if you fully intend to go there

I gotta be real, man, as someone with a GPA lower than yours/same LSAT who's also applied this cycle - you should have a lot better options than this, you definitely underperformed. You can remedy that next time around if you're willing to wait a year and reapply.

[BigZuck]

Naw Zach, sticker is almost always dumb. Especially if you want to do the clerkship/big law drone routine and you have to debt finance. You don't want to pay 300K to have this dude's life: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=241821

Life is too short, there are better things to do with it. And if someone really wants to be a lawyer, they can just go to a lower ranked school for cheapsies. If they can't do that cuz their GPA sucks or they refuse to retake the lsat or whatever then they are, in the immortal words of Mr. Pancakes, "disqualified." Which is fine, no biggie.

Dumb false dichotomies are dumb.

As for the OP- speaking of dumb, don't overpay to go to Vandy just cuz you don't like the snow. Have yourself a proper application cycle and put yourself in the best possible position.

[TheSpanishMain]

So: it's either something insidiously awful about UVA of which I'm not aware because I don't go there, OR it's the old hardline 'don't go sticker anywhere because law school is expensive and I'm a risk-averse whiner blarg blarg blarg'. The former I'd be interested in hearing about, the latter I understand but is not SO CLEARLY the one true way that it deserves such hyperbolic rhetoric.

So I reiterate: Zombie go eat a dick.

I'd agree that sticker at some schools works on paper. Like, if you debt finance 270k at Harvard, you're almost certainly going to be able to get a job that lets you make your payments without living under a bridge. But it will involve slaving away for years at a job almost universally agreed to be miserable just to get back to a zero balance. I just can't see it. I guess I just don't want to be a lawyer badly enough to pay the equivalent of a mortgage for a house that doesn't exist. I also think I'd go insane if I was working like a rented mule for 70 hours a week only to see the money go to service massive debt. That's not being risk averse...it's more like recognizing that even "winning" looks a lot like losing.

That's just me, though. Not claiming my outlook is universal truth or anything.