Michigan no longer a T10 - run away all is doomed Forum

[ballcaps]

lol don't think jobs have ever been the number one consideration for any published lists...there's always been some hot air thrown into the equation

i just looked and mich does have a low biglaw + fedclerk score though. presumably average COA is also lower than other t14s

Jerbless but $250k in debt rather than $280k. What a bargain.

hahahahah who are you?

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/2013/

i guess chicago >>> Y because:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/chicago/2013/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/yale/2013/

p.s. you sound like an utter tool when you say things like

Michigan is a terrible school.

[BigZuck]

r1tlv50 wrote:

haha. I got that from the HYS -> CCN -> PV...etc breakdowns people post on here (i think they normally group Penn and Mich). i agree that the job data favor penn

Those groupings are generally based on admissions criteria (HYS is hardest to get into, CCN a little easier, MVPB a little easier than that, DCNG easier than that) also kinda based on job outcomes (HYS has better outcomes than CCN, CCN has better outcomes than MVPB, etc.) but mostly it's just kind of TLS convention and not worth trying to decipher those tiers because you can find all sorts of exceptions.

penn v. nyu in particular makes me wonder though. just on very general evaluations of the schools (biglaw and clerk percentages, gpa/lsat), it seems like penn's got the advantage in everything but the lsat percentiles

Go ahead and try to decipher it then if it makes you feel better

[r1tlv50]

Go ahead and try to decipher it then if it makes you feel better

u mad?

[BigZuck]

Go ahead and try to decipher it then if it makes you feel better

u mad?

Naw. U?

[Mal Reynolds]

lol don't think jobs have ever been the number one consideration for any published lists...there's always been some hot air thrown into the equation

i just looked and mich does have a low biglaw + fedclerk score though. presumably average COA is also lower than other t14s

Jerbless but $250k in debt rather than $280k. What a bargain.

hahahahah who are you?

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/2013/

i guess chicago >>> Y because:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/chicago/2013/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/yale/2013/

p.s. you sound like an utter tool when you say things like

Michigan is a terrible school.

But it is a terrible school. What are these links supposed to tell me.

[03152016]

penn v. nyu in particular makes me wonder though. just on very general evaluations of the schools (biglaw and clerk percentages, gpa/lsat), it seems like penn's got the advantage in everything but the lsat percentiles

bl+fc ≠ placement power due to self-selection
(a) oci success rate, (b) elite firm placement, and (c) firm grade cut-offs generally give you a better picture because these factors allow you to do an apples-to-apples comparison on an individual level, and they favor n over p
same dynamic is (likely) in play with mich vs boalt (m>b in pure bl+fc), or yale vs stanford (s>y in pure bl+fc), etc

[rpupkin]

penn v. nyu in particular makes me wonder though. just on very general evaluations of the schools (biglaw and clerk percentages, gpa/lsat), it seems like penn's got the advantage in everything but the lsat percentiles

bl+fc ≠ placement power due to self-selection
(a) oci success rate, (b) elite firm placement, and (c) firm grade cut-offs generally give you a better picture because these factors allow you to do an apples-to-apples comparison on an individual level, and they favor n over p
same dynamic is (likely) in play with mich vs boalt (m>b in pure bl+fc), or yale vs stanford (s>y in pure bl+fc), etc

I actually agree with Brut here.

Michigan drops out of the top 10, and shit gets crazy.

[Aeon]

I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.

[Tiago Splitter]

I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.

Please point me to the row in the employment data listing BigFed jobs and I'll add them in

[Mal Reynolds]

ljl ad fed gov jobs.

[Winston1984]

I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.

Because we can easily measure these. Hard to know if a PI job is a good gig or not. The argument could be made that BL numbers could be inflated due to clerks or something though. Not sure it's enough to really be meaningful.

[rpupkin]

I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.

Because we can easily measure these. Hard to know if a PI job is a good gig or not. The argument could be made that BL numbers could be inflated due to clerks or something though. Not sure it's enough to really be meaningful.

Wut?

[03152016]

he's saying that the 101+ figure in 509s includes non-associate positions

[Mack.Hambleton]

Michigan has more unemployed seeking (29) than all government jobs (28). I'm guessing not all of those government jobs are prestigious big Fed either

[r1tlv50]

I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.

Just a pretty easy rule of thumb and it goes on the assumption most BL jobs are comparable relative to each other (PI and government jobs likely vary a little more in job responsibilities/sophistication/prestige/etc). For most of us, a job at a big firm is the most realistic way of paying back law school debt in a reasonable amount of time.

[r1tlv50]

penn v. nyu in particular makes me wonder though. just on very general evaluations of the schools (biglaw and clerk percentages, gpa/lsat), it seems like penn's got the advantage in everything but the lsat percentiles

bl+fc ≠ placement power due to self-selection
(a) oci success rate, (b) elite firm placement, and (c) firm grade cut-offs generally give you a better picture because these factors allow you to do an apples-to-apples comparison on an individual level, and they favor n over p
same dynamic is (likely) in play with mich vs boalt (m>b in pure bl+fc), or yale vs stanford (s>y in pure bl+fc), etc

That's interesting. Are OCI success rates publicly available?

[Aeon]

Michigan has more unemployed seeking (29) than all government jobs (28). I'm guessing not all of those government jobs are prestigious big Fed either

Michigan has lagged in school-funded jobs for a while, but I heard that they beefed up the program recently. I wonder whether future unemployed numbers will be lower because of that.

[Aeon]

I've never understood the fixation on the BL+FC metric. BigFed is also a good outcome (with many positions more difficult to secure than BigLaw), as are many PI positions. Then there are people going to boutiques and smaller firms. As mentioned, there is undoubtedly self-selection going on.

This isn't to say that Michigan's job numbers have no room for improvement, but the numbers don't tell all. The fall in the rankings is likely to be explained by other factors anyway.

Just a pretty easy rule of thumb and it goes on the assumption most BL jobs are comparable relative to each other (PI and government jobs likely vary a little more in job responsibilities/sophistication/prestige/etc). For most of us, a job at a big firm is the most realistic way of paying back law school debt in a reasonable amount of time.

So they're a rough proxy. Fair enough. When I was applying to law schools, it was pretty much a shot in the dark with employment outcomes. It does help to have more information out there. Past performance not being an indicator of future success (and with some degree of self-selection going on), I'd still take the numbers with a grain of salt.

[BigZuck]

Just go to Michigan guys, it was T3 in like 1982 who cares about data grain of salt self selection, etc.

[metroidbum]

.

[bowser]

Haven't seen them myself, but many have said when it comes to grade cutoffs Michigan is same as other schools in its range.

I think the primary factor must be geographic location of where Michigan people look for jobs. Not saying that's the only factor, but I think it accounts for a lot of the lagging.

[rpupkin]

Michigan's LST numbers are better than Berkeley and GULC, and just below Duke/Northwestern

But yeah, its a TTT

C'mon dude, don't exaggerate. Michigan is a solid T1.

[BigZuck]

Haven't seen them myself, but many have said when it comes to grade cutoffs Michigan is same as other schools in its range.

I think the primary factor must be geographic location of where Michigan people look for jobs. Not saying that's the only factor, but I think it accounts for a lot of the lagging.

Yeah, the students are failing the school not vice versa, I agree

[baal hadad]

DROVES or employers fleeing UMich oci

[runinthefront]

Michigan is definitely a worthy "T14" in terms of reputation, portability and employment outcomes; I think what most people tend to point out is that it's now closer to the more lower ranked schools than it is to schools like Virginia and Penn--on paper, and in light of its readily ascertainable employment outcomes.

Also, speculating at things like "grade cut-offs" between/amongst different schools is pretty dubious

Still doesn't change the fact that there's less than 12 schools in the country with better placement power