Best schools for Chicago BL (outside UChi) Forum

[skers]

Yeah, no rush in making a decision. Definitely negotiate and get the most aid you can from everyone.

Disabuse yourself (and everyone ITT should as well) of any Chicago BL or bust mentality. Even if you could literally guarantee above median at Michigan or NU rn it'd still be stupid. Any and all plans should assume your most likely outcome and Chicago BL is just a bonus. Get over any problems w/ working NY big law. And actually run numbers and budgets to see what paying back these kinds of debt loads would be like. Despite being big law secure, I can tell you it's fucking absurd how much debt you take on. 0L kind of desensitizes you to how ridiculous the numbers are, but it feels very different when you actually have to start thinking about paying it back.

[wojo98]

If you're Chicago Big Law or bust - NU is the only option (outside of UChi). Just look at the NLJ250 data. NU trounces all your other options - including Michigan (who places 10% LESS of their class into Big Law) in the aggregate. And NU's placement skews Chicago - placing more students at large Chi shops like Kirkland, Baker & McKenzie, and McDermott than any other law school last year. Honestly, NU is a great USNWR/actual Big Law placement arbitrage opportunity - as the school annually places better (which is the point of a professional school) than its mag ranks.

Debt aversion at a T-14 is overrated ITT. From a T-14, you have at least a >50% shot at Big Law (all else equal) and can fall back on LRAP or whatever if you swing and miss vs. the regional school that sends a miniscule % into Big Law (and even then, the firm's attending OCI are limited - particularly among elite firms) AND suffer the likely downside risk (~75%+ chance) of being stuck on the left side of the bi-modal income distribution. Banking on being a special butterfly at a TTT is an ignorant way of approaching this investment in your own human capital if the primary LT goal is Big Law.

/end rant slash NU plug

Also - the general consensus on the thread is correct - you're at both NU medians - so would assume you can wrest at least ~$15k/year assuming your interview/why NU statement wasn't particularly aspie .

[thebobs1987]

I go to UIUC and you can definitely get a job in Chicago pretty easily from here, but if you're not in the top 20-25% then it almost certainly will be a gig for 50k-60k. With your numbers you should be getting more money from NU. As people have said email them and tell about your full rides for from WUSTL and UIUC. If for some reason they don't give you money then I would probably go with UIUC over WUSTL cause it places better in Chicago. Also, it depends on where you are from in the midwest, but a decent number of my classmates also got BL in St. Louis and a few more got it in Michigan, so UIUC is not strictly just Chicago if you are from other parts of the midwest. Still your numbers should get you some decent money from Mich and NU and you shouldn't have to settle for UIUC/ND/WUSTL

[jingosaur]

NU or Michigan should give you enough money where that becomes the right choice. If you wouldn't be okay with no Biglaw, don't go to a school outside the T14.

What, in your opinion, is that threshold?

Because it doesn't seem like you would be happy with $50k to $60k in a Chicago suburb and people who take the strong regional full rides are usually people who would be fine with that outcome. IMO the 3 year time investment is worth almost as much as the money spent on law school so it's often worth the extra money to better ensure that you achieve you goals, especially when your chances improve from about 25% to 55%.

Also, I think you'll get about $75k from NU and/or Michigan so don't freak out until you hear about money. With Chicago Biglaw in mind, NU is probably the better choice at equal money.

[smiles123]

I think you will get $$ at NU/Mich with your numbers. But tbh, if neither budge, I'd considering waiting until next cycle and EDing NU.

[The Dark Shepard]

NU trounces all your other options - including Michigan (who places 10% LESS of their class into Big Law

uh....what?

[thebobs1987]

NU trounces all your other options - including Michigan (who places 10% LESS of their class into Big Law

uh....what?

I think they meant less than 10% of big law in Chicago. Failing to realize that is mostly self-selection.

[skers]

NU trounces all your other options - including Michigan (who places 10% LESS of their class into Big Law

uh....what?

I think they meant less than 10% of big law in Chicago. Failing to realize that is mostly self-selection.

Na, dude is just saying Mich's nlj250 #'s were 10% lower. Michigan's big law placement is definitely not self-selection, particularly w/r/t Chicago where they've had a much harder time of it since '08.

The comment that people overstate what a big deal debt is in the t14 is still the dumbest thing in this thread though.

[thebobs1987]

NU trounces all your other options - including Michigan (who places 10% LESS of their class into Big Law

uh....what?

I think they meant less than 10% of big law in Chicago. Failing to realize that is mostly self-selection.

Na, dude is just saying Mich's nlj250 #'s were 10% lower. Michigan's big law placement is definitely not self-selection, particularly w/r/t Chicago where they've had a much harder time of it since '08.

The comment that people overstate what a big deal debt is in the t14 is still the dumbest thing in this thread though.

you're right, didn't read it that closely. And you are definitely right about the debt comment

[The Dark Shepard]

I somehow read that as less than 10% into BigLaw.

[irish921]

ND should net you a solid 75% scholarship with the way the generosity has been going over in that admitted students thread. Self selection plays a large part in ND biglaw, but Chicago is very doable with good grades.

[Rigo]

Notre Dame doesn't make sense with a UIUC (and WUSTL) fully on the table unless OP would prefer a religious environment in South Bend (which OP has explicitly said he doesn't). It doesn't hurt to apply, but ND is in no meaningful way a superior option. People citing the slightly higher biglaw placement aren't taking into account that while Notre Dame has increased it's class size, UIUC has been reducing them. Future biglaw placement/chances will very likely be different than the class of 2013.

Of course all of this will likely be moot when all is said and done and OP has a size-able Northwestern scholarship.

[The Dark Shepard]

Notre Dame doesn't make sense with a UIUC (and WUSTL) fully on the table unless OP would prefer a religious environment in South Bend (which OP has explicitly said he doesn't). It doesn't hurt to apply, but ND is in no meaningful way a superior option. People citing the slightly higher biglaw placement aren't taking into account that while Notre Dame has increased it's class size, UIUC has been reducing them. Future biglaw placement/chances will very likely be different than the class of 2013.

Of course all of this will likely be moot when all is said and done and OP has a size-able Northwestern scholarship.

Admittedly I don't know how well this carries over into the legal market, but Notre Dame is a huge deal in Chicago in general.

[Rigo]

Admittedly I don't know how well this carries over into the legal market, but Notre Dame is a huge deal in Chicago in general.

Notre Dame has some lay prestige (which means zilch in terms of legal hiring), but explain to me why a 75% scholly at ND trumps a UIUC full-ride and a WUSTL full-ride.

I'm not saying ND is a crappy school. It just isn't superior, and is actually an inferior choice if it means more debt.

[Ron Don Volante]

It's odd that Northwestern and Michigan are not giving you any money with a 169/3.75.
What's the deal with that?

Anyways, sticker is definitely not advisable. I would probably do UIUC and work my ass off to get in top 20%. There's definitely an added risk of not getting biglaw out of UIUC but at least you won't have $200k debt hanging over you.
Also, it's very possible to live in Chambana for 3 years for less than $65k.

Yeah bro, just do be top 20%.

Yeah dringo you really need to stop giving advice like this buddy. You sound really silly.

[Rigo]

It's odd that Northwestern and Michigan are not giving you any money with a 169/3.75.
What's the deal with that?
Anyways, sticker is definitely not advisable. I would probably do UIUC and work my ass off to get in top 20%. There's definitely an added risk of not getting biglaw out of UIUC but at least you won't have $200k debt hanging over you.
Also, it's very possible to live in Chambana for 3 years for less than $65k.

Yeah bro, just do be top 20%.

Yeah dringo you really need to stop giving advice like this buddy. You sound really silly.

Dude get off my case. I specifically said that's what *I* would do. Are you suggesting OP pay sticker?

[thebobs1987]

Notre Dame doesn't make sense with a UIUC (and WUSTL) fully on the table unless OP would prefer a religious environment in South Bend (which OP has explicitly said he doesn't). It doesn't hurt to apply, but ND is in no meaningful way a superior option. People citing the slightly higher biglaw placement aren't taking into account that while Notre Dame has increased it's class size, UIUC has been reducing them. Future biglaw placement/chances will very likely be different than the class of 2013.

Of course all of this will likely be moot when all is said and done and OP has a size-able Northwestern scholarship.

Admittedly I don't know how well this carries over into the legal market, but Notre Dame is a huge deal in Chicago in general.

From what I have seen law firms in Chicago treat UIUC and ND the same. So not worth taking more debt to go there if targeting Chicago. If you weren't sure about where you wanted to be, then ND's portability might be worth more

[pamphleteer]

Admittedly I don't know how well this carries over into the legal market, but Notre Dame is a huge deal in Chicago in general.

Notre Dame has some lay prestige (which means zilch in terms of legal hiring), but explain to me why a 75% scholly at ND trumps a UIUC full-ride and a WUSTL full-ride.

I'm not saying ND is a crappy school. It just isn't superior, and is actually an inferior choice if it means more debt.

Given how generous ND has been this cycle I think OP gets a full ride. At that point ND is certainly a better option than WUSTL for Chicago placement. Perhaps slightly worse than UIUC for Chicago alone, especially if the ~40-student difference in matriculants for c/o 2017 holds or increases this year, but unquestionably better for any other market.

Honest question: just how important a consideration is class size WRT employment? Even if Illinois drops their 1L class to, say, 140 students that doesn't mean Chicago firms are suddenly going to start hiring median or even top-third kids, does it?

[wojo98]

The comment that people overstate what a big deal debt is in the t14 is still the dumbest thing in this thread though.

Point is that you have to pay to play. Debt/employment preference is a personal, subjective determination. In a vacuum, sticker anywhere is a poor decision. But in OP’s situation (his only sufficient employment outcome is Big Law), it’s potentially defensible to reject the regional option – because of 1) the magnitude of the disparity in Big Law placement between his debt/no debt options 2) the difference in flexibility between each option’s worst case scenarios. If OP strikes out @ NU w/ debt, he can go all in 2L/3L to position himself for various PI loan mitigation programs, etc. (thus, enjoying the initial upside potential of the Big Law placement probability AND employing tactics to mitigate the debt-generated downside risk). If OP strikes out at the regional school – he’s stuck on the low salary trajectory (starting at $60k, etc.) with little ability to mitigate (e.g. chance of trading up to a Big Law salary) – in addition to his initial, low Big Law probability.

Not defending debt generally – even moderate debt should be modeled so that 0L has a sense of what his assumed liability translates to in terms of monthly cash flows. But, it can be a rational tool depending on particular career parameters (OP’s Big Law or bust priorities), school choices, and background (OP’s prior work experience).

[thebobs1987]

Admittedly I don't know how well this carries over into the legal market, but Notre Dame is a huge deal in Chicago in general.

Notre Dame has some lay prestige (which means zilch in terms of legal hiring), but explain to me why a 75% scholly at ND trumps a UIUC full-ride and a WUSTL full-ride.

I'm not saying ND is a crappy school. It just isn't superior, and is actually an inferior choice if it means more debt.

Given how generous ND has been this cycle I think OP gets a full ride. At that point ND is certainly a better option than WUSTL for Chicago placement. Perhaps slightly worse than UIUC for Chicago alone, especially if the ~40-student difference in matriculants for c/o 2017 holds or increases this year, but unquestionably better for any other market.

Honest question: just how important a consideration is class size WRT employment? Even if Illinois drops their 1L class to, say, 140 students that doesn't mean Chicago firms are suddenly going to start hiring median or even top-third kids, does it?

Class sizes shouldn't be a main consideration. Most firms I am sure look primarily at class rank. Where it does help though is on the edges because there are a lot of top firms that basically take a set number of students (usually no more than 2 or 3) from UIUC and ND. So it probably just gives you a little more wiggle room. But yeah, I don't think you'll see many big law firms go even to top third kids at UIUC unless it were closer to 100.

[thebobs1987]

I'm curious: if well over half of graduates get JD-required jobs 9 months out at schools like WUSTL and UIUC, but only about a quarter or less are placed into big law, what are all the other jobs out there that people say they're aiming for? If "mid-law" isn't a thing for entry level, what are the majority of people with median grades and median outcomes getting? Is everything else 40-60K small law? I know it's dependent on situation and differs from person to person, but is the work/life balance just as crappy as big law in most cases?

I've read a few threads here about "day in the life" work and routine of lawyers ranging from big law to public work, but I'm just genuinely curious what people say who aren't shooting for big law from these schools, since it's not a likely outcome. I'm not dissing the work at all, especially if there's no debt to pay off. The employment data just has more jobs in it than the big law and public/government type stuff that people go into law school saying they want.

At least from what I have seen at UIUC, basically if you're not in the top 25% you aren't getting big law. And yes the vast majority of the jobs are 50-60k. A lot do insurance defense, there are a plaintiffs firms plus state/local govt work and other PI. There are a couple in-house positions that pay 80-90 and a few of the mythical mid-law jobs that pay between 80 and 120. But generally if you're not big law then you're making 60 or less.

[Cobretti]

you're at or above both of NU's medians, you're going to get a lot of money and its going to make this a very easy decision for you. congrats