Hastings, Loyola, Santa Clara, Chapman Forum

[FSK]

Ruin your life. We can't stop you. You already know that attending law school without retaking is idiotic. You're asking anonymous poasters to justify your poor choice. It isn't going to happen.

[BigZuck]

The OP came out a little too guns blaze-y to be taken seriously IMO

Hopefully wasn't real. If they were, they were clearly beyond saving.

[BankruptMe]

Not worth going if real.

You would have to work like hell to get a job...anything legal related in a glutted market with one of the hardest bar exams in the country.

[AReasonableMan]

Pepperdine is religious but has a lot of really, really beautiful women. San Diego does too. You want to go where you'll have the most fun. Focusing on classes would be like eating broccoli at a last supper.

[timbs4339]

It still amazes me how entitled some 21 year olds are where they can make decisions involving close to 300K in debt and the next 20 years of their lives with the same rigor as if it's 2:30 AM and they are choosing between Chinese, pizza, or wings.

[tuhaybey]

Think about this: Your LSAT score puts you at the 66th percentile nationally. Lets say that the bottom 50% don't generally go to law school, so you're at about the 33rd percentile of law school students. 45% of people don't pass the bar exam in CA. Completing law school and being unable to pass the bar is not a risk you want to take and it is not a risk that reputable law schools want to let you take either. The reputable law schools want to see proof that you will not have any problems at all passing the bar before they are willing to even consider your application. The schools that will take your money anyways are not schools that employers who pay enough to cover your loan payments hire from.

If you want to become a lawyer, you need to do it right. Your concern at this point about the February test should not be that it might be too late, you should be worried that it might be too soon to get in sufficient studying in time. If you want to retake it in February, you need to get cracking now. You need to block out most of your weekends and evenings from here until February for taking practice tests. That might sound crazy, but that is exactly what most people who end up with legal jobs that pay enough to cover their loan payments did.

If your heart is really set on being a lawyer, you can certainly do it, but it takes a huge amount of work and time. The LSAT is just the very start. Once you start law school, you basically need to accept that you won't do anything- anything- other than study, sleep, and attend class. What the LSAT tests, more than anything else, is whether you're the kind of person who is willing to do that.

[AReasonableMan]

It still amazes me how entitled some 21 year olds are where they can make decisions involving close to 300K in debt and the next 20 years of their lives with the same rigor as if it's 2:30 AM and they are choosing between Chinese, pizza, or wings.

It's an obvious result to treating people like children into their twenties and giving them full contractual rights at 18. They are easy and valuable prey.

The likely outcome is OP goes to one of these, winds up at Starbucks in deep debt but gets his revenge by spitting in the man's mocha latte. The law school wins, the man is confused by his weird tasting latte, and OP thinks if only I retook.

[FSK]

I have no doubt that every one of these schools should close. There is no way that they bring more value to the community than the harm they cause to their students.

[Pragmatic Gun]

It still amazes me how entitled some 21 year olds are where they can make decisions involving close to 300K in debt and the next 20 years of their lives with the same rigor as if it's 2:30 AM and they are choosing between Chinese, pizza, or wings.

It's an obvious result to treating people like children into their twenties and giving them full contractual rights at 18. They are easy and valuable prey.

The likely outcome is OP goes to one of these, winds up at Starbucks in deep debt but gets his revenge by spitting in the man's mocha latte. The law school wins, the man is confused by his weird tasting latte, and OP thinks if only I retook.

Haha, that's a perfect encapsulation of the social ills brought by the glut of JDs in the marketplace.

[gnomgnomuch]

Because it is not an option

Explain why it is not an option.

If you attend any of these schools, the most likely scenario is that you will end up with massive debt and will not get a job as a lawyer.

With your numbers, you will not receive any significant scholarship $ and will be 200k+ in debt. What kind of job are you going to get to pay that out? You will be lucky to snag a 50K/year law job from any of those--seriously, that would be a GREAT outcome from one of these schools. And your odds at landing one of those are not even very good.

Everyone here is trying to help you out, honestly.

I am overloading for the rest of the year, working, and am not banking on a significant jump in my score. I won't be able to take in dec or February and will not be taking a gap year. Ok I got that I won't be getting scholarship money, and will have a VERY tough time getting a job. Moving forward - any more feedback?

You've already gotten your feedback. Go to LST and look at employment outcomes from these schools. Taking a gap year is the ONLY feasible option you have. With your 3.25 you'd need a 170+ score to make Law School worth it, and that would be assuming you could get into those schools, that make LS a decent gamble.

Retaking is not only an option, but its the ONLY option, otherwise you shouldn't go near a law school.

Your adamant refusal to retake just proves the point that you're not mature enough to go to LS.
Also, you're not a special butterfly, most of us on TLS work and go to class with a bunch of other stuff as well.

Also, there are NO advantages of choosing these schools, unless money is no worry and you've got a job lined up.... and even THEN it would make infinitely more sense to attend a better school, because circumstances change all the time.

[BankruptMe]

It still amazes me how entitled some 21 year olds are where they can make decisions involving close to 300K in debt and the next 20 years of their lives with the same rigor as if it's 2:30 AM and they are choosing between Chinese, pizza, or wings.

I spit water out my mouth. lolz

[timbs4339]

It still amazes me how entitled some 21 year olds are where they can make decisions involving close to 300K in debt and the next 20 years of their lives with the same rigor as if it's 2:30 AM and they are choosing between Chinese, pizza, or wings.

I spit water out my mouth. lolz

I was trying to be hyperbolic, but then I thought back to some of the extended discussions we'd have about the various benefits and drawbacks of wings vs pizza vs Chinese and realized they involved way more analysis than some of the posters who come here seem to have given to law school.

[AReasonableMan]

Being a college senior isn't easy. People working 16 hour days in big law or 18 hours at a sweatshop are only doing so because they couldn't handle the toughness of college life. What to wear to a toga party, how to express your thoughts on a poem, chipotle two days in a row. It's hell out there.

[Pragmatic Gun]

Being a college senior isn't easy. People working 16 hour days in big law or 18 hours at a sweatshop are only doing so because they couldn't handle the toughness of college life. What to wear to a toga party, how to express your thoughts on a poem, chipotle two days in a row. It's hell out there.

Chipotle? Did you go to NYU?

[AReasonableMan]

Being a college senior isn't easy. People working 16 hour days in big law or 18 hours at a sweatshop are only doing so because they couldn't handle the toughness of college life. What to wear to a toga party, how to express your thoughts on a poem, chipotle two days in a row. It's hell out there.

Chipotle? Did you go to NYU?

There's a chipotle in their dining?

[whatsyourdeal]

I went to one of these schools. Graduated slightly above median in 2013, was able to land an in-house gig making a decent, livable salary. My advice:

Don't go. Especially for sticker price. Even if your mom and dad are paying for it.

Its insane to pay 200k to go to any one of these schools. People on this board -from T14s, nonetheless- are struggling to find jobs, some with crushing debt. While these schools were ok to go to in better times (i.e. when law school was cheaper and jobs were plentiful), you'd have to be out of your mind to pay sticker just to go now. Imagine the effect that graduating with such debt will have on your employment optoins: you will literally jump for joy if a doc review company calls you for work, just so you can keep the lights on for another few weeks.

I think its fine if you had a full ride and decided to attend one of these schools, but for sticker price? No way. You can wait a year and re-take.

[NorCalLaw]

Nobody cares about your extracurriculars. President of prelate club sounds like the least fun college kid ever. Zero chance a school thinks he's 156 but pre law president or a firm thinks he goes to a TTT but he was prelate president!! The website prestige!

Thanks for the valuable input. How many times have you saved the world? Do you know anything about these schools other than that they cost a lot and that employment prospects are difficult?

You're all are pretty well versed. Retake, you're an idiot, no job, all debt, but no one knows anything about the advantages of choosing one over the other?

You should retake. Seriously, work at the best job you can find for a year or three and build up some self-discipline and general knowledge of the world. I promise it will come in handy if you do go to law school, and the kids who have been "out" for a few years tend to test better as well. Practice hard and retake. Even an absolutely average college grad can do much better than 156 with proper preparation.

The "best" choice among the options you've presented, with your goals, is clearly Loyola. All those schools, however, are in a death spiral. Even their current, awful numbers could well get worse by the time you graduate. You have been warned.

[ManoftheHour]

The "best" choice among the options you've presented, with your goals, is clearly Loyola. All those schools, however, are in a death spiral. Even their current, awful numbers could well get worse by the time you graduate. You have been warned.

I disagree. The "best" choice is Chapman. Not because it's any good, but since he'll most likely not end up being an attorney anyway, at least he can live at home and save on COL:

OC native so I will probably live at home if admitted to Chapman or UCI.

But yeah, they're all definitely in a death spiral.

[romothesavior]

Because it is not an option

Then you should not go to law school.

But if you'd rather ignore honest feedback from practicing lawyers, recent graduates, and current law students while accumulating massive debt for what you've already admitted to be terrible job prospects, then by all means, knock yourself out.

[NorCalLaw]

The "best" choice among the options you've presented, with your goals, is clearly Loyola. All those schools, however, are in a death spiral. Even their current, awful numbers could well get worse by the time you graduate. You have been warned.

I disagree. The "best" choice is Chapman. Not because it's any good, but since he'll most likely not end up being an attorney anyway, at least he can live at home and save on COL:

OC native so I will probably live at home if admitted to Chapman or UCI.

But yeah, they're all definitely in a death spiral.

Close enough to be debatable, but it's a bit of an academic question since the correct answer is "neither."

[AReasonableMan]

Honestly, even if the person ignores the advice, it is useful. If they're rational a part of them realizes nobody is intending to big league them out of practicing law. At least they will know if they don't clean up they are screwed. If they see it as a prolonged job application and not as College: Part II, they are likely to do somewhat better.

[timbs4339]

Honestly, even if the person ignores the advice, it is useful. If they're rational a part of them realizes nobody is intending to big league them out of practicing law. At least they will know if they don't clean up they are screwed. If they see it as a prolonged job application and not as College: Part II, they are likely to do somewhat better.

There could also be lurkers considering the same question.

[AReasonableMan]

Honestly, even if the person ignores the advice, it is useful. If they're rational a part of them realizes nobody is intending to big league them out of practicing law. At least they will know if they don't clean up they are screwed. If they see it as a prolonged job application and not as College: Part II, they are likely to do somewhat better.

There could also be lurkers considering the same question.

I think it would be useful if there were profile options listing credentials broadly like whether someone clerked or is working. I know that there is a pretty wide consensus that some test prep companies and lower schools promulgate that the bad press is largely sour grapes coming from the embittered minority. Nobody with half a brain wants to represent any school or employer without express instructions to do so, but evidencing that observations are from actual current experience without being too specific may be useful.

[nlee10]

OP: Let's just say you go ahead and apply with your numbers. Your 156 is lower than the medians at Hastings, Loyola, Santa Clara, and on the dot with Chapman. Your 3.2x gpa doesn't help either if you're looking for $$. Even if you get into Chapman or SCU, you'll be looking at full-tuition aka full debt.

I can sympathize with you OP because I'm from the area with a similarly low gpa. I'm not settling for anything lower than Pepperdine/Loyola with a decent scholarship, which means I'm busting my butt off for a mid 160's LSAT.

[Ramius]

OP: Let's just say you go ahead and apply with your numbers. Your 156 is lower than the medians at Hastings, Loyola, Santa Clara, and on the dot with Chapman. Your 3.2x gpa doesn't help either if you're looking for $$. Even if you get into Chapman or SCU, you'll be looking at full-tuition aka full debt.

I can sympathize with you OP because I'm from the area with a similarly low gpa. I'm not settling for anything lower than Pepperdine/Loyola with a decent scholarship, which means I'm busting my butt off for a mid 160's LSAT.

What is a decent scholarship to Loyola/Pdine to you?