Big Ten Schools Forum

[XxSpyKEx]

Do even the T14 have that much national appeal, really?

From all I see and I hear, both in LS and on this site, the T14 schools (outside of HYS) will get you

1. NYC
2. The market you have pre-existing ties to
3. The market the school is located in

I just remember reading a long AMA thread from a guy in Michigan big law, and he basically made it sound like they only cared about T14 if you already had Michigan ties, otherwise they went straight to the local schools after that. And that included non-ties people who went to U of M.

The point is that if you're from Alabama, going to Columbia will give you options in NYC and in Alabama. Big Alabama firms will be an easy sell (relative to someone who attended an Alabama law school), and NYC will be doable. Even going to HYS will not open doors in markets that you have no ties to (or a really good reason for why you want to go there). And #3 is not really accurate. For example, if you go to UMichigan, and have no ties to Michigan, Michigan biglaw firms will not hire you. (But, at least, you'll have options in NYC and markets you have ties to, unlike if you had attended, for example, Wayne State with no ties to Michigan in which case you would most likely wind up unemployed.)

Also, DC is also an option for t14 grads, in addition to NYC. You'll need an explanation for why you want to be there (e.g. you want to do lobbying), but employers don't care about ties to the market (i.e. you don't need to have lived there, or a spouse who is from there, etc).

[wons]

Also, DC is also an option for t14 grads, in addition to NYC. You'll need an explanation for why you want to be there (e.g. you want to do lobbying), but employers don't care about ties to the market (i.e. you don't need to have lived there, or a spouse who is from there, etc).

As is LA, SF, Boston, Chicago - pretty much any city that fancies itself important enough to attract someone without ties. Plus your home state and your significant other's home state. And the state where you went to undergrad will generally work too, especially if you went to undergrad in a state with midsized legal markets.

Or you can go to your native state school and be limited to markets in that state.

[metroidbum]

Also, DC is also an option for t14 grads, in addition to NYC. You'll need an explanation for why you want to be there (e.g. you want to do lobbying), but employers don't care about ties to the market (i.e. you don't need to have lived there, or a spouse who is from there, etc).

As is LA, SF, Boston, Chicago - pretty much any city that fancies itself important enough to attract someone without ties. Plus your home state and your significant other's home state. And the state where you went to undergrad will generally work too, especially if you went to undergrad in a state with midsized legal markets.

Or you can go to your native state school and be limited to markets in that state.

My impression based on TLS scuttlebutt was that all the major markets (besides NYC and DC) are pretty insular, and still want some sort of at least regional ties even from T14.

Basically, I don't get why we call the T14 "national schools" if national only means NYC and DC without ties. A truly national school would open doors anywhere if you grades/resume/personality was good enough. Giving you a leg up on the local kids in the region you have ties to is nice, but not really national, no?

[BigZuck]

"Just do GF home state bro EZ game nbd" is WAY too overly simplistic, IMO

[Tiago Splitter]

Basically, I don't get why we call the T14 "national schools" if national only means NYC and DC without ties. A truly national school would open doors anywhere if you grades/resume/personality was good enough. Giving you a leg up on the local kids in the region you have ties to is nice, but not really national, no?

There aren't really enough jobs in most places for this to really matter. As wons said, T14 people without ties still manage to get big firm jobs in just about every big city. The fact that a T14 guy with strong grades couldn't get that Memphis big firm job isn't much of a story.

Where NYC really comes into play is for people with average grades, and people with average grades outside of the T14 don't have much chance at biglaw anywhere.

[XxSpyKEx]

Also, DC is also an option for t14 grads, in addition to NYC. You'll need an explanation for why you want to be there (e.g. you want to do lobbying), but employers don't care about ties to the market (i.e. you don't need to have lived there, or a spouse who is from there, etc).

As is LA, SF, Boston, Chicago - pretty much any city that fancies itself important enough to attract someone without ties. Plus your home state and your significant other's home state. And the state where you went to undergrad will generally work too, especially if you went to undergrad in a state with midsized legal markets.

Or you can go to your native state school and be limited to markets in that state.

My impression based on TLS scuttlebutt was that all the major markets (besides NYC and DC) are pretty insular, and still want some sort of at least regional ties even from T14.

Basically, I don't get why we call the T14 "national schools" if national only means NYC and DC without ties. A truly national school would open doors anywhere if you grades/resume/personality was good enough. Giving you a leg up on the local kids in the region you have ties to is nice, but not really national, no?

It's national in the sense that grads from those law schools go practice throughout the country (and are able to do so). Obviously, this is different than going to a school that opens doors anywhere, including places you don't have ties. The reason employers don't hire people without ties (except NYC and DC) is simply the fact that those people don't typically stick around. They work for a year or two, realize that their lives suck, get homesick, and leave. So basically the employers wastes tons of money while the new attorney is not profitable in training, etc, and then when the attorney would be valuable, he leaves. Also, my understanding is that the "national" schools were truly national (or at least closer to it) back around 2007. Back then big firms would try to sell you on their markets. But it was very much a t14 job seekers market in the early 2000s, to the point where firms were they were raising salaries and fighting tooth and nail for t14 grads with a pulse. Things have changed.

[XxSpyKEx]

Also, DC is also an option for t14 grads, in addition to NYC. You'll need an explanation for why you want to be there (e.g. you want to do lobbying), but employers don't care about ties to the market (i.e. you don't need to have lived there, or a spouse who is from there, etc).

As is LA, SF, Boston, Chicago - pretty much any city that fancies itself important enough to attract someone without ties. Plus your home state and your significant other's home state. And the state where you went to undergrad will generally work too, especially if you went to undergrad in a state with midsized legal markets.

Or you can go to your native state school and be limited to markets in that state.

Actually having gone through the process (and living in one of the cities you've mentioned), I can say for a fact that ties matter in all of those listed markets. A lot. Your odds of getting Boston biglaw are basically 0 without regional ties. Also, firms don't give a shit about where you went to undergrad with respect to whether it counts as ties. Frankly, when I did OCI, firms didn't even care about where you were going to law school (and currently living), unless you had a really convincing reason for wanting to be there long-term (e.g. "my family now lives here"). A girl I went to school with had a very difficult time trying to convince firms that she wanted to live in Dallas, despite having spent the first 20 years of her life there (but her family moved after she turned 20). If you want to work somewhere that's not NYC (and to some extent DC), you need to have regional ties or a really good reason for why you want to be there (e.g. "my wife works in this state").

[unc0mm0n1]

Do even the T14 have that much national appeal, really?

From all I see and I hear, both in LS and on this site, the T14 schools (outside of HYS) will get you

1. NYC
2. The market you have pre-existing ties to
3. The market the school is located in

I just remember reading a long AMA thread from a guy in Michigan big law, and he basically made it sound like they only cared about T14 if you already had Michigan ties, otherwise they went straight to the local schools after that. And that included non-ties people who went to U of M.

The point is that if you're from Alabama, going to Columbia will give you options in NYC and in Alabama. Big Alabama firms will be an easy sell (relative to someone who attended an Alabama law school), and NYC will be doable. Even going to HYS will not open doors in markets that you have no ties to (or a really good reason for why you want to go there). And #3 is not really accurate. For example, if you go to UMichigan, and have no ties to Michigan, Michigan biglaw firms will not hire you. (But, at least, you'll have options in NYC and markets you have ties to, unlike if you had attended, for example, Wayne State with no ties to Michigan in which case you would most likely wind up unemployed.)

Also, DC is also an option for t14 grads, in addition to NYC. You'll need an explanation for why you want to be there (e.g. you want to do lobbying), but employers don't care about ties to the market (i.e. you don't need to have lived there, or a spouse who is from there, etc).

Completed disagree with the boldeded. I have too many friends who are practicing in Texas, Miami, Chicago, Cali, London etc. with none/vague ties. Not saying it's guaranteed you can get a job anywhere without ties but many students from HYS get jobs in places they have never lived and only have vague ties to.

[20141023]

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[HP5450]

You shouldn't go anywhere other than Michigan and Northwestern without a large scholarship, because the money just won't add up. Think about how you have to live to pay off $200,000 in loans with a $50,000 salary starting at 28, especially if you decide to have a family and factor in taxes.

Michigan (and I assume Northwestern students) tend to go to New York, Chicago, California, DC, Boston, Texas in roughly that order, because that's where the money is (yes Michigan slides in there somewhere, but disproportionally because of clerkships and public interest work). I know students who have ended up in California or Boston without ties, and certainly Chicago, DC, and NYC without ties is common (a little less common for Chicago than DC or NYC). But as a general rule, a firm in Columbus isn't going to think that a student from Northwestern or Michigan (or for that matter Harvard) wants to be there if they've never lived in Ohio before. At Michigan, of my 30 closest friends, I know of one people who is going to Detroit for their 2L summer. That's not entirely representative, but you get the idea. The people from Detroit, provided their grades are decent, tend to be looking to Chicago.

With respect to the remaining schools, provided you have a LARGE scholarship that makes one of these schools not a completely ass backwards choice, you should focus on geography. Illinois for Chicago, Minnesota for Minn., Wisconsin for Milwaukee, Indiana for Indy., Ohio State for Cleveland/Columbus/Cinci., etc. Of course, if you have connections to one of those cities, you're going to have a much greater chance of landing a good job coming out of Mich. or NW than another Big 10 school. There are no surprises in this.

[BigZuck]

You shouldn't go anywhere other than Michigan and Northwestern without a large scholarship, because the money just won't add up. Think about how you have to live to pay off $200,000 in loans with a $50,000 salary starting at 28, especially if you decide to have a family and factor in taxes.

Michigan (and I assume Northwestern students) tend to go to New York, Chicago, California, DC, Boston, Texas in roughly that order, because that's where the money is (yes Michigan slides in there somewhere, but disproportionally because of clerkships and public interest work). I know students who have ended up in California or Boston without ties, and certainly Chicago, DC, and NYC without ties is common (a little less common for Chicago than DC or NYC). But as a general rule, a firm in Columbus isn't going to think that a student from Northwestern or Michigan (or for that matter Harvard) wants to be there if they've never lived in Ohio before. At Michigan, of my 30 closest friends, I know of one people who is going to Detroit for their 2L summer. That's not entirely representative, but you get the idea. The people from Detroit, provided their grades are decent, tend to be looking to Chicago.

With respect to the remaining schools, provided you have a LARGE scholarship that makes one of these schools not a completely ass backwards choice, you should focus of geography. Illinois for Chicago, Minnesota for Minn., Wisconsin for Milwaukee, Indiana for Indy., Ohio State for Cleveland/Columbus/Cinci., etc. Of course, if you have connections to one of those cities, you're going to have a much greater chance of landing a good job coming out of Mich. or NW than another Big 10 school. There are no surprises in this.

But where is your 31st closest friend going?

[EricHosmer]

You shouldn't go anywhere other than Michigan and Northwestern without a large scholarship, because the money just won't add up. Think about how you have to live to pay off $200,000 in loans with a $50,000 salary starting at 28, especially if you decide to have a family and factor in taxes.

Michigan (and I assume Northwestern students) tend to go to New York, Chicago, California, DC, Boston, Texas in roughly that order, because that's where the money is (yes Michigan slides in there somewhere, but disproportionally because of clerkships and public interest work). I know students who have ended up in California or Boston without ties, and certainly Chicago, DC, and NYC without ties is common (a little less common for Chicago than DC or NYC). But as a general rule, a firm in Columbus isn't going to think that a student from Northwestern or Michigan (or for that matter Harvard) wants to be there if they've never lived in Ohio before. At Michigan, of my 30 closest friends, I know of one people who is going to Detroit for their 2L summer. That's not entirely representative, but you get the idea. The people from Detroit, provided their grades are decent, tend to be looking to Chicago.

With respect to the remaining schools, provided you have a LARGE scholarship that makes one of these schools not a completely ass backwards choice, you should focus of geography. Illinois for Chicago, Minnesota for Minn., Wisconsin for Milwaukee, Indiana for Indy., Ohio State for Cleveland/Columbus/Cinci., etc. Of course, if you have connections to one of those cities, you're going to have a much greater chance of landing a good job coming out of Mich. or NW than another Big 10 school. There are no surprises in this.

But where is your 31st closest friend going?

I actually listened to the people here on TLS and am not going to law school.

[mvp99]

You shouldn't go anywhere other than Michigan and Northwestern without a large scholarship, because the money just won't add up. Think about how you have to live to pay off $200,000 in loans with a $50,000 salary starting at 28, especially if you decide to have a family and factor in taxes.

Michigan (and I assume Northwestern students) tend to go to New York, Chicago, California, DC, Boston, Texas in roughly that order, because that's where the money is (yes Michigan slides in there somewhere, but disproportionally because of clerkships and public interest work). I know students who have ended up in California or Boston without ties, and certainly Chicago, DC, and NYC without ties is common (a little less common for Chicago than DC or NYC). But as a general rule, a firm in Columbus isn't going to think that a student from Northwestern or Michigan (or for that matter Harvard) wants to be there if they've never lived in Ohio before. At Michigan, of my 30 closest friends, I know of one people who is going to Detroit for their 2L summer. That's not entirely representative, but you get the idea. The people from Detroit, provided their grades are decent, tend to be looking to Chicago.

How many people you think went to Chicago from M?

[Braylen05]

Yeah I was looking for exact list for big ten schools and you helped me a lot by providing this great list!! I would prefer Minnesota or Indiana, because I have heard that both of these schools provide best studies.

[jebsterb]

Here's some advice that's applicable on nearly every board here.

Go to whichever one gives you the best scholarship and do your own legwork finding a job if you have a place in mind (don't rely on career services and OCI). If you're competitive at Illinois and you want to go to Chicago you won't have different outcomes applying to the same firm if can show the same desire to work in Chicago and have similar grades. The only defining feature (aside from the work you put in putting application materials together for the firms) is how much debt you graduate with. Always always always go with less debt first. If you get into Northwestern or Mich (which means you likely getting full rides from the rest of Big Ten) then you're the only one who can make the call of how much more money is worth an outcome that still has a level of uncertainty (don't let anyone tell you the T14 is a golden ticket).

[DaRascal]

Lol I can't believe you're picking a law school because it's in the Big Ten. I might have to look into some good Conference USA law schools.

[fats provolone]

Yeah I was looking for exact list for big ten schools and you helped me a lot by providing this great list!! I would prefer Minnesota or Indiana, because I have heard that both of these schools provide best studies.

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