Temple Law - employment prospects? 60k job after graduation? Forum

[pancakes3]

By all means please name some careers offering these opportunities, keeping in mind that my qualification is a Bachelor of Arts (read: no technical, mathematical, engineering, in other words "hard" skills).

Editing, journalism, consulting, teaching, legal/political support, real estate, sales, marketing, pr, hospitality, human resources...

The idea that a summa B.A. from an ivy leaves you without any job prospects is wrong to the point of it being confusingly wrong.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

OP: I know the job market still sucks, but surely with a great GPA from Penn you should be able to find some job that will lead to opportunities to make $60K in three years without having to go to Temple? I'm not sure why you think law school is the only path to a 60K job (for a lot of students it isn't even that).

With that GPA and 5 more points you'd be looking at a full ride to great schools. 10 more points and you'd be in contention at T13 schools. Don't waste the GPA.

EDIT: Honestly, that degree from an Ivy gives you so many options to actually get a real job out of college. A place like Temple is for people who graduated from state schools who are choosing between cashier at Best Buy and at least trying to have a shot at a "respectable" career. You could work in another field for a few years and give the LSAT an extra couple tries.

Really? Well, I don't mean to confront you, but did you get a BA from an Ivy? Do you live in a city comparable (economically-speaking) to Philadelphia? Are you or were you recently in the job market? I think these are all relevant questions to ask before stating that a BA from an Ivy gives you so "many options", because I'm really not seeing them from where I stand. Before this, and before my Fulbright, I was in the job market for a good 6 months, so I know what it's like and am under no illusion, like some of you here seem to be. A BA from an Ivy doesn't entitle you to exactly jack here. And by the way, on that note, what would you consider a good option out of college? Does 35k/year fall under that category? How about 40k? Because that's as much as I'm looking at, IF I'm lucky.

Now there seem to be a number of you operating under an assumption equivalent to "If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle." If you only get 6 or 7 points more on LSAT, you'd be gold. Someone earlier suggested that I haven't studied "optimally" for this exam. Well in the two years that I've studied for this exam (at some times with more intensity than others), I've read the PowerScore Bible books cover to cover, made an 80 page outline of the book, seen countless youtube videos on the games and then repeated the games until I could do them under 8 minutes, and completed over 30 LSAT practice exams. Also, I've given the actual exam twice. The first time I cancelled my score and the second time I received a 158. The only thing I haven't done is taken a class because I don't have the money to pay someone just to regurgitate to me principles I've already read in the book. Plus, I'm already good at keeping myself on task so wouldn't have much need for the assigned homeworks.

All that said, I am scheduled to *retake* in September, so if anyone has more optimal suggestions about how I can study for this thing, then please throw them my way. But I'm not terribly optimistic. Certainly I lack your fairytale optimism when no practice test thus far has been over a 162. I would have a heart attack the day I discover that I've gotten anywhere close to a 165 on my next LSAT.

The consensus here seems to be "DON'T DO IT," but I'm not sure if this judgment is based on some fallacious, misguided belief that I can get into a much better school if i just (for the love of God) retake the exam, or if it is based on your assessment of my job opportunities after graduation from this university (which is really all I was asking for in my initial post)? Temple is a Tier 2 school (pos. 61), not TTT. Also, I wouldn't even consider it, if I didn't know that the school has considerable clout within the city. Now I know that my resume would be no eye-candy for BIGlaw, but then again I'm no fan of slaving myself for 70+ hours every week doing mind-crippling work that hardly warrants a law degree day in day out until I become one of those statistics that contribute to making this one of the most unethical, depressing, suicidal, and drug-abusing professions out there. But it seems most of you either lack these nuances or aren't aware of these issues out there. I've heard many times the logic "Dude, just retake the LSAT, get a 165+, go to a T14, get into BIGlaw, $$$, you're set!" Someone here called it BIGlaw tunnel vision, and that's exactly what I'm seeing. In my judgment, the only thing the vast majority of BIGlaw is good for is the exit options. Even the obscene amounts of money don't make up for the time taken away from having a semblance of an actual life in your late 20's and 30's, prime years for finding a partner and creating a family. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I encourage you to read Patrick J. Schiltz's (Harvard grad, ex-BIGlaw partner) well-known essay.

As always, thanks for reading. I best be getting on with my daily less-than-optimal studying for today.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

Temple isn't an awful option, if you want Philly and are paying little for the degree, but expecting a job AS A LAWYER is shaky at best, let alone hoping for a 60k/yr salary. The biggest problem that I have is that you're basically throwing away your Penn degree. You went to one of the best schools in the country and graduated at the top of your class, so you shouldn't be settling for Temple and a 50/50 shot at a getting a job with your degree.

Thanks for the input. Valid points.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

OP: I know the job market still sucks, but surely with a great GPA from Penn you should be able to find some job that will lead to opportunities to make $60K in three years without having to go to Temple? I'm not sure why you think law school is the only path to a 60K job (for a lot of students it isn't even that).

With that GPA and 5 more points you'd be looking at a full ride to great schools. 10 more points and you'd be in contention at T13 schools. Don't waste the GPA.

EDIT: Honestly, that degree from an Ivy gives you so many options to actually get a real job out of college. A place like Temple is for people who graduated from state schools who are choosing between cashier at Best Buy and at least trying to have a shot at a "respectable" career. You could work in another field for a few years and give the LSAT an extra couple tries.

By all means please name some careers offering these opportunities, keeping in mind that my qualification is a Bachelor of Arts (read: no technical, mathematical, engineering, in other words "hard" skills).

Ask your classmates, go to the career counseling office, or look at the linkedin profiles of last year's graduates. I did not go to a prestigious UG, the only employer at my college's career fair was the local county public works department. But my friends who went to Ivies worked in policy, finance, consulting, media, building a resume before they got to law school.

If you want to do something legally related and make 60K with overtime, visit the websites of the "Vault 100" law firms and apply to be a paralegal. They jump at kids from Ivy BA programs. Do that for three years and you'll likely be making more than the median salary for a Penn grad (the real median salary, not the cherry-picked stats published by the school).

I applied to many paralegal jobs. While nobody was "jumping" for me I did get two interviews. The problem with being a paralegal is that I don't want to do that all my life. The only exit and logical growth out of it is if you become a lawyer. But to become a lawyer you need to take the LSAT. Which brings me right back to square 1...

[jingosaur]

If you think job prospects being at the top of the class at a world-class undergrad are bad, just imagine what job prospects are like at a lower-tier law school during a down legal market. Grabbing more degrees isn't going to improve your job prospects unless to go to an incredibly good school. You have to build your resume first, which I know is extremely difficult to do. You may view going to law school as an "easy way out" but the truth is that in most cases, getting another degree to boost job prospects is just going to put you into a deeper hole.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

By all means please name some careers offering these opportunities, keeping in mind that my qualification is a Bachelor of Arts (read: no technical, mathematical, engineering, in other words "hard" skills).

Editing, journalism, consulting, teaching, legal/political support, real estate, sales, marketing, pr, hospitality, human resources...

The idea that a summa B.A. from an ivy leaves you without any job prospects is wrong to the point of it being confusingly wrong.

Yeah, there are some OK options here that I would take a look at from reputable firms with growth opportunities near Philadelphia area.

Consulting? I'd jump at it. But during OCR I was effectively surpassed by my Wharton and more technical peers. I'm giving it another shot, rest assured.
Teaching? So we're going from law to teaching now? No thanks.
Journalism - not interested.
Editing - editing what? I'm not sure I get this one. Sounds like journalism.
PR / Political support - Sure, but at 35k per year, let's not befuddle that.
Real estate / Sales / Marketing / Hospitality / HR - These are jobs I've been considering, even with a BA, but now we're getting into areas that imply an MBA in the future. I actually enjoy business, but I'm not particularly good at math, which is one of the things that pushed me to law in the first place. I don't even want to think what my GMAT score would look like.

Thanks for the input, keep it coming if you have more ideas.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

If you think job prospects being at the top of the class at a world-class undergrad are bad, just imagine what job prospects are like at a lower-tier law school during a down legal market. Grabbing more degrees isn't going to improve your job prospects unless to go to an incredibly good school. You have to build your resume first, which I know is extremely difficult to do. You may view going to law school as an "easy way out" but the truth is that in most cases, getting another degree to boost job prospects is just going to put you into a deeper hole.

Thanks for this valid perspective. I agree with much of what you say.

[chuckbass]

Temple isn't an awful option, if you want Philly and are paying little for the degree, but expecting a job AS A LAWYER is shaky at best, let alone hoping for a 60k/yr salary. The biggest problem that I have is that you're basically throwing away your Penn degree. You went to one of the best schools in the country and graduated at the top of your class, so you shouldn't be settling for Temple and a 50/50 shot at a getting a job with your degree.

Thanks for the input. Valid points.

And tbf I went to Temple UG for a year, so I'm not just shit-talking the school. I love the school, and it does have a great reputation in the city, but you'll struggle more trying to get a job from Beasley than from Penn UG.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

Temple isn't an awful option, if you want Philly and are paying little for the degree, but expecting a job AS A LAWYER is shaky at best, let alone hoping for a 60k/yr salary. The biggest problem that I have is that you're basically throwing away your Penn degree. You went to one of the best schools in the country and graduated at the top of your class, so you shouldn't be settling for Temple and a 50/50 shot at a getting a job with your degree.

Thanks for the input. Valid points.

And tbf I went to Temple UG for a year, so I'm not just shit-talking the school. I love the school, and it does have a great reputation in the city, but you'll struggle more trying to get a job from Beasley than from Penn UG.

Interesting... I'm keeping your observation in mind. Thank you!

[chuckbass]

Temple isn't an awful option, if you want Philly and are paying little for the degree, but expecting a job AS A LAWYER is shaky at best, let alone hoping for a 60k/yr salary. The biggest problem that I have is that you're basically throwing away your Penn degree. You went to one of the best schools in the country and graduated at the top of your class, so you shouldn't be settling for Temple and a 50/50 shot at a getting a job with your degree.

Thanks for the input. Valid points.

And tbf I went to Temple UG for a year, so I'm not just shit-talking the school. I love the school, and it does have a great reputation in the city, but you'll struggle more trying to get a job from Beasley than from Penn UG.

Interesting... I'm keeping your observation in mind. Thank you!

Np. But seriously, kids in the top 10% of the class there aren't secure with jobs, just imagine how stressful and awful that is, especially if you work your ass off and with a little luck get into the top of the class, you still don't have any guarantee of a job.

[timbs4339]

OP: I know the job market still sucks, but surely with a great GPA from Penn you should be able to find some job that will lead to opportunities to make $60K in three years without having to go to Temple? I'm not sure why you think law school is the only path to a 60K job (for a lot of students it isn't even that).

With that GPA and 5 more points you'd be looking at a full ride to great schools. 10 more points and you'd be in contention at T13 schools. Don't waste the GPA.

EDIT: Honestly, that degree from an Ivy gives you so many options to actually get a real job out of college. A place like Temple is for people who graduated from state schools who are choosing between cashier at Best Buy and at least trying to have a shot at a "respectable" career. You could work in another field for a few years and give the LSAT an extra couple tries.

Really? Well, I don't mean to confront you, but did you get a BA from an Ivy? Do you live in a city comparable (economically-speaking) to Philadelphia? Are you or were you recently in the job market? I think these are all relevant questions to ask before stating that a BA from an Ivy gives you so "many options", because I'm really not seeing them from where I stand. Before this, and before my Fulbright, I was in the job market for a good 6 months, so I know what it's like and am under no illusion, like some of you here seem to be. A BA from an Ivy doesn't entitle you to exactly jack here. And by the way, on that note, what would you consider a good option out of college? Does 35k/year fall under that category? How about 40k? Because that's as much as I'm looking at, IF I'm lucky.

Now there seem to be a number of you operating under an assumption equivalent to "If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle." If you only get 6 or 7 points more on LSAT, you'd be gold. Someone earlier suggested that I haven't studied "optimally" for this exam. Well in the two years that I've studied for this exam (at some times with more intensity than others), I've read the PowerScore Bible books cover to cover, made an 80 page outline of the book, seen countless youtube videos on the games and then repeated the games until I could do them under 8 minutes, and completed over 30 LSAT practice exams. Also, I've given the actual exam twice. The first time I cancelled my score and the second time I received a 158. The only thing I haven't done is taken a class because I don't have the money to pay someone just to regurgitate to me principles I've already read in the book. Plus, I'm already good at keeping myself on task so wouldn't have much need for the assigned homeworks.

All that said, I am scheduled to *retake* in September, so if anyone has more optimal suggestions about how I can study for this thing, then please throw them my way. But I'm not terribly optimistic. Certainly I lack your fairytale optimism when no practice test thus far has been over a 162. I would have a heart attack the day I discover that I've gotten anywhere close to a 165 on my next LSAT.

The consensus here seems to be "DON'T DO IT," but I'm not sure if this judgment is based on some fallacious, misguided belief that I can get into a much better school if i just (for the love of God) retake the exam, or if it is based on your assessment of my job opportunities after graduation from this university (which is really all I was asking for in my initial post)? Temple is a Tier 2 school (pos. 61), not TTT. Also, I wouldn't even consider it, if I didn't know that the school has considerable clout within the city. Now I know that my resume would be no eye-candy for BIGlaw, but then again I'm no fan of slaving myself for 70+ hours every week doing mind-crippling work that hardly warrants a law degree day in day out until I become one of those statistics that contribute to making this one of the most unethical, depressing, suicidal, and drug-abusing professions out there. But it seems most of you either lack these nuances or aren't aware of these issues out there. I've heard many times the logic "Dude, just retake the LSAT, get a 165+, go to a T14, get into BIGlaw, $$$, you're set!" Someone here called it BIGlaw tunnel vision, and that's exactly what I'm seeing. In my judgment, the only thing the vast majority of BIGlaw is good for is the exit options. Even the obscene amounts of money don't make up for the time taken away from having a semblance of an actual life in your late 20's and 30's, prime years for finding a partner and creating a family. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I encourage you to read Patrick J. Schiltz's (Harvard grad, ex-BIGlaw partner) well-known essay.

As always, thanks for reading. I best be getting on with my daily less-than-optimal studying for today.

Don't worry about it, I'm a lawyer and I can handle it.

Nobody is saying that whatever you do for a few years has to be your career for the rest of your life. Plenty of people go to law school when they are in their mid-to-late 20s. They are better prepared and better candidates in the job market. Hell one of my co-workers went to law school at 48.

As for your starting salary, it's a starting salary. What you need to consider is what your salary will be like in 3 years in those fields. Those are all very tough fields to get into right now- but the hard part is getting into them. Of course career progression is hard to predict (one reason that law school looks so attractive to people like you), but in the right field, with three years of experience, you'll get raises, promotions, and lateral opportunities. You seem to be concerned that the initial salary isn't high enough for what you think you're worth. Well guess what, it's not for law either, and with loans your lifestyle is going to be comparable to what you have now.

On to your last paragraph: I think that you understand why you do not want to do biglaw (and why you might want to consider it even if you hate the lifestyle), but you don't understand (or just haven't articulated) why you want to do smallaw or work in local or state government or direct services PI. You seem to be overly focused on the salary you think you can get and whether it will allow you to lead a middle-class life. What we're telling you is that after 3 years in some other career path, you'll probably have that same salary with less debt, and if not, you might have a better LSAT score and a better slate of schools to pick from. You have options- don't pick the one that shuts the most doors.

There's an entire forum on TLS dedicated to LSAT prep. It's free. I don't think anything anyone in this thread can say will help you more than that.

[TheSpanishMain]

If you want anecdotes, my brother-in-law went to Temple Law and is doing very well for himself. Of course, he was like top five in his class. Not top 5%. Like top five students. I don't think he'd advise going to Temple with your GPA.

[jchiles]

Definitely look into some of the big real estate brokerage and development companies in the Philly area, I know people out of Penn and other city schools that got decent entry-level positions there who didn't major in anything business related, and I had a few opportunities in that industry as well. I have a similar GPA in a similarly useless major but I got interviews from places I applied to on a whim, so I really think if you cast a broad net and demonstrate interest you can find something. I don't think an MBA is something that is absolutely necessary, either, but I guess that depends on the company and if you want to move into management.

But seriously, kids in the top 10% of the class there aren't secure with jobs

^This is 100% true, you really don't get to relax, at least in the worrying-about-jobs sense, when you go to a school like this.

[Gray]

.

[03152016]

no one said you have to do biglaw
where is that coming from?

also, you are prepping wrong
you should be drilling before taking prep tests, and reading the bibles + 30 PTs ought to take 2 months, not 2 years
you do not have time to maximize your potential by september
you should visit the prep forum and shoot for a december take

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

no one said you have to do biglaw
where is that coming from?

also, you are prepping wrong
you should be drilling before taking prep tests, and reading the bibles + 30 PTs ought to take 2 months, not 2 years
you do not have time to maximize your potential by september
you should visit the prep forum and shoot for a december take

Never accused anyone of saying that I had to do BIGlaw. I was merely making an observation that after graduating from Temple, I would not be very attractive to them, but that this didn't bother me for the above-stated reasons..
If you're referring to the *drills* on the bible books, I've done them all last summer when I bought the latest version of the book. Since then I've only done practice tests. I'll visit the prep forum to see if there's anything else you guys can suggest. Thanks.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

Hey OP!

I know you probably don't want to hear another person tell you to just ace your retake, but I am curious as to why you don't think you can bump your score? Is there some aspect of taking the test that you struggle with - issues with endurance or test anxiety?

I only ask because you've studied for a long time, and haven't had a huge bump in practice test scores - is there a certain section in the test that really kills your score?

If you haven't already, you might want to try: --LinkRemoved--. you can enter your preptest answers and figure out the exact kind of questions that you struggle with. I'm guessing that if you've been studying so hard without getting the results you want, there might be a couple of specific types of questions that you're not approaching the best way. If something pops as being a problem area, then you can work on targeting that.

TLS is a broken record about the LSAT, but everything that has been said ITT true. It's learnable.

I'm sure this wasn't the response that you were looking for... but if you're looking for stable employment after graduation, even with a $60,000 salary, a mediocre LS is not a good choice. I think the risk of being back where you started, except with a fuckton of debt, is too high. (I mean, I get a hard time on TLS for wanting to go to Georgetttown, for fuck's sake).

Anyway, best of luck in September!

Hi, thanks for the interest. No issues with anxiety or endurance during the exam as far as I can judge myself.
The biggest problem section for me is the games. I'm lucky if I can finish 3 of the 4. There's videos on youtube of people explaining how to do the games and I'll watch them and afterwards try to replicate all their inferences myself by redoing the games. It's helped me some.
But in general time is my biggest problem factor. That's why I am doing practice after practice to improve this aspect.

Wow, thanks so much for suggesting this website to me! Didn't even know it existed! I have at least 8 exams that I've done these past two weeks that I can now submit to the machine so it can tell me where I usually go wrong.

I'll update soon. Thanks again!

[objctnyrhnr]

no one said you have to do biglaw
where is that coming from?

also, you are prepping wrong
you should be drilling before taking prep tests, and reading the bibles + 30 PTs ought to take 2 months, not 2 years
you do not have time to maximize your potential by september
you should visit the prep forum and shoot for a december take

Never accused anyone of saying that I had to do BIGlaw. I was merely making an observation that after graduating from Temple, I would not be very attractive to them, but that this didn't bother me for the above-stated reasons..
If you're referring to the *drills* on the bible books, I've done them all last summer when I bought the latest version of the book. Since then I've only done practice tests. I'll visit the prep forum to see if there's anything else you guys can suggest. Thanks.

I'll be the guy who says what you did re: LSAT prep was not enough.

I did not bother quoting your original post, but you said you did 30 LSAT tests over the course of two years? You need to do all 80 (or whatever)...and then do them again. You should probably take a class, or maybe at least hire a tutor for a couple sessions. You need to look over every right and wrong answer and write out why it is right and why the others were wrong (particularly in the arguments). The arguments and the puzzles are insanely learnable. You need to be able to do every game in your sleep, to the point that the answers start to come to you without physically having to draw out the pictures. You just have not put enough into it. I acknowledge that you have put some, but the sheer gravity of the situation still does not seem to be appreciated by you. The amount that a few additional LSAT points will get you, admissions or $$ wise, is completely absurd.

Perhaps you'll respond with something about lack of money to devote enough time and all that and then you'll talk about how you don't have enough $ for a class either, but if you are seriously contemplating severely limiting your options in the way that you are [by going to temple] for the amount you're going to end up spending on it, both in opportunity cost and tuition, it's worth taking out a small loan to finance your living for a few months so that you can live this test. additionally, a lot of classes give finaid.

you clearly have the aptitude--you got into a top UG and excelled there. of LSAT-type standarized tests, the LSAT is the one that most closely correlates to IQ (I have read this a couple times, but I don't feel like finding the source to cite it). part of the reason everybody on this thread is so adamant is because you could get at least a decent LSAT score if you really applied yourself.

so yeah--you are not doing enough. I did not let myself take the LSAT until I was getting 177+ on every single practice test I took. I thought this would take a year (of college). it ended up taking three--two years of college, one year of FT job, but I ended up getting a score I was really happy with. it was not a 177, but I got perfect scores on every section besides the RC, and that was when I knew I could not do any better. take your time. you'll get there.

[03152016]

no one said you have to do biglaw
where is that coming from?

Never accused anyone of saying that I had to do BIGlaw. I was merely making an observation that after graduating from Temple, I would not be very attractive to them, but that this didn't bother me for the above-stated reasons.. .

I've heard many times the logic "Dude, just retake the LSAT, get a 165+, go to a T14, get into BIGlaw, $$$, you're set!" Someone here called it BIGlaw tunnel vision, and that's exactly what I'm seeing.

[ilikebaseball]

Hey OP!

I know you probably don't want to hear another person tell you to just ace your retake, but I am curious as to why you don't think you can bump your score? Is there some aspect of taking the test that you struggle with - issues with endurance or test anxiety?

I only ask because you've studied for a long time, and haven't had a huge bump in practice test scores - is there a certain section in the test that really kills your score?

If you haven't already, you might want to try: --LinkRemoved--. you can enter your preptest answers and figure out the exact kind of questions that you struggle with. I'm guessing that if you've been studying so hard without getting the results you want, there might be a couple of specific types of questions that you're not approaching the best way. If something pops as being a problem area, then you can work on targeting that.

TLS is a broken record about the LSAT, but everything that has been said ITT true. It's learnable.

I'm sure this wasn't the response that you were looking for... but if you're looking for stable employment after graduation, even with a $60,000 salary, a mediocre LS is not a good choice. I think the risk of being back where you started, except with a fuckton of debt, is too high. (I mean, I get a hard time on TLS for wanting to go to Georgetttown, for fuck's sake).

Anyway, best of luck in September!

Hi, thanks for the interest. No issues with anxiety or endurance during the exam as far as I can judge myself.
The biggest problem section for me is the games. I'm lucky if I can finish 3 of the 4. There's videos on youtube of people explaining how to do the games and I'll watch them and afterwards try to replicate all their inferences myself by redoing the games. It's helped me some.
But in general time is my biggest problem factor. That's why I am doing practice after practice to improve this aspect.

Wow, thanks so much for suggesting this website to me! Didn't even know it existed! I have at least 8 exams that I've done these past two weeks that I can now submit to the machine so it can tell me where I usually go wrong.

I'll update soon. Thanks again!

Dude study the games for two weeks every single night and you'll literally raise your test score by like 4 points at least.

[pancakes3]

I've heard many times the logic "Dude, just retake the LSAT, get a 165+, go to a T14, get into BIGlaw, $$$, you're set!" Someone here called it BIGlaw tunnel vision, and that's exactly what I'm seeing.

[/quote]

If you're bothered by the tunnel vision aspect, you can just stop at the get into T14 part and be employed in whatever field you chose. It's not like retake->165+->T14->Biglaw->$ is inextricably linked. The point is, a 165+ gets you 85-90% employment guarantees vs 50%. That's not a narrowing of your options, that's a significant widening.

[ilikebaseball]

I just don't see why you wouldnt do it. Getting a higher score would be easy for you if games are your biggest struggle. The games are easy to get better at. With a higher score comes a HUGE range of options and more scholly money. With more options comes a better understanding of how much worse Temple is compared to the rest of the law schools in your area.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

OP: I know the job market still sucks, but surely with a great GPA from Penn you should be able to find some job that will lead to opportunities to make $60K in three years without having to go to Temple? I'm not sure why you think law school is the only path to a 60K job (for a lot of students it isn't even that).

With that GPA and 5 more points you'd be looking at a full ride to great schools. 10 more points and you'd be in contention at T13 schools. Don't waste the GPA.

EDIT: Honestly, that degree from an Ivy gives you so many options to actually get a real job out of college. A place like Temple is for people who graduated from state schools who are choosing between cashier at Best Buy and at least trying to have a shot at a "respectable" career. You could work in another field for a few years and give the LSAT an extra couple tries.

Really? Well, I don't mean to confront you, but did you get a BA from an Ivy? Do you live in a city comparable (economically-speaking) to Philadelphia? Are you or were you recently in the job market? I think these are all relevant questions to ask before stating that a BA from an Ivy gives you so "many options", because I'm really not seeing them from where I stand. Before this, and before my Fulbright, I was in the job market for a good 6 months, so I know what it's like and am under no illusion, like some of you here seem to be. A BA from an Ivy doesn't entitle you to exactly jack here. And by the way, on that note, what would you consider a good option out of college? Does 35k/year fall under that category? How about 40k? Because that's as much as I'm looking at, IF I'm lucky.

Now there seem to be a number of you operating under an assumption equivalent to "If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle." If you only get 6 or 7 points more on LSAT, you'd be gold. Someone earlier suggested that I haven't studied "optimally" for this exam. Well in the two years that I've studied for this exam (at some times with more intensity than others), I've read the PowerScore Bible books cover to cover, made an 80 page outline of the book, seen countless youtube videos on the games and then repeated the games until I could do them under 8 minutes, and completed over 30 LSAT practice exams. Also, I've given the actual exam twice. The first time I cancelled my score and the second time I received a 158. The only thing I haven't done is taken a class because I don't have the money to pay someone just to regurgitate to me principles I've already read in the book. Plus, I'm already good at keeping myself on task so wouldn't have much need for the assigned homeworks.

All that said, I am scheduled to *retake* in September, so if anyone has more optimal suggestions about how I can study for this thing, then please throw them my way. But I'm not terribly optimistic. Certainly I lack your fairytale optimism when no practice test thus far has been over a 162. I would have a heart attack the day I discover that I've gotten anywhere close to a 165 on my next LSAT.

The consensus here seems to be "DON'T DO IT," but I'm not sure if this judgment is based on some fallacious, misguided belief that I can get into a much better school if i just (for the love of God) retake the exam, or if it is based on your assessment of my job opportunities after graduation from this university (which is really all I was asking for in my initial post)? Temple is a Tier 2 school (pos. 61), not TTT. Also, I wouldn't even consider it, if I didn't know that the school has considerable clout within the city. Now I know that my resume would be no eye-candy for BIGlaw, but then again I'm no fan of slaving myself for 70+ hours every week doing mind-crippling work that hardly warrants a law degree day in day out until I become one of those statistics that contribute to making this one of the most unethical, depressing, suicidal, and drug-abusing professions out there. But it seems most of you either lack these nuances or aren't aware of these issues out there. I've heard many times the logic "Dude, just retake the LSAT, get a 165+, go to a T14, get into BIGlaw, $$$, you're set!" Someone here called it BIGlaw tunnel vision, and that's exactly what I'm seeing. In my judgment, the only thing the vast majority of BIGlaw is good for is the exit options. Even the obscene amounts of money don't make up for the time taken away from having a semblance of an actual life in your late 20's and 30's, prime years for finding a partner and creating a family. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I encourage you to read Patrick J. Schiltz's (Harvard grad, ex-BIGlaw partner) well-known essay.

As always, thanks for reading. I best be getting on with my daily less-than-optimal studying for today.

Don't worry about it, I'm a lawyer and I can handle it.

Nobody is saying that whatever you do for a few years has to be your career for the rest of your life. Plenty of people go to law school when they are in their mid-to-late 20s. They are better prepared and better candidates in the job market. Hell one of my co-workers went to law school at 48.

As for your starting salary, it's a starting salary. What you need to consider is what your salary will be like in 3 years in those fields. Those are all very tough fields to get into right now- but the hard part is getting into them. Of course career progression is hard to predict (one reason that law school looks so attractive to people like you), but in the right field, with three years of experience, you'll get raises, promotions, and lateral opportunities. You seem to be concerned that the initial salary isn't high enough for what you think you're worth. Well guess what, it's not for law either, and with loans your lifestyle is going to be comparable to what you have now.

On to your last paragraph: I think that you understand why you do not want to do biglaw (and why you might want to consider it even if you hate the lifestyle), but you don't understand (or just haven't articulated) why you want to do smallaw or work in local or state government or direct services PI. You seem to be overly focused on the salary you think you can get and whether it will allow you to lead a middle-class life. What we're telling you is that after 3 years in some other career path, you'll probably have that same salary with less debt, and if not, you might have a better LSAT score and a better slate of schools to pick from. You have options- don't pick the one that shuts the most doors.

There's an entire forum on TLS dedicated to LSAT prep. It's free. I don't think anything anyone in this thread can say will help you more than that.

To be honest, I think you've misread my intentions a bit. I don't consider starting salary to be the most important factor. What I consider the most important factors in a career are the growth potential (in responsibility, but which also equals to earning potential, in my mind) and the exit options (which also equals the skillset position provides at time of departure, in my view). I'll gladly take a position starting at 30-40k if I believe that it has potential.

Failing that, I will take a hard look at the starting salary if it's in a field that I don't have much interest in, say Hospitality, Sales, or HR. This is where it becomes important to look at these starting figures because, you are right, it is hard to guesstimate what your salary will be in these places after 3 years, assuming that I even want to stay there for 3 years and don't burn out before. Plus, if I hope to get back to the law game at a later point, in my late twenties, as you seem to suggest, I need all the money I can save up during these 3 years. So yes, starting salary is a factor, but not the most important and it depends on the situation.

As for wanting to do midsize, small, or even PI law, the main reason is that it will allow me to have a life outside of my work. Are there small size firms with big firm mentality out there? Absolutely. I'd have no desire to work for them either. Apart from that, I think the law is the law wherever you practice it - the main difference being in the "type" of law you choose to practice, maybe not so much the setting.

What we're telling you is that after 3 years in some other career path, you'll probably have that same salary with less debt, and if not, you might have a better LSAT score and a better slate of schools to pick from. You have options- don't pick the one that shuts the most doors.

Perfect. Thanks.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

no one said you have to do biglaw
where is that coming from?

also, you are prepping wrong
you should be drilling before taking prep tests, and reading the bibles + 30 PTs ought to take 2 months, not 2 years
you do not have time to maximize your potential by september
you should visit the prep forum and shoot for a december take

Never accused anyone of saying that I had to do BIGlaw. I was merely making an observation that after graduating from Temple, I would not be very attractive to them, but that this didn't bother me for the above-stated reasons..
If you're referring to the *drills* on the bible books, I've done them all last summer when I bought the latest version of the book. Since then I've only done practice tests. I'll visit the prep forum to see if there's anything else you guys can suggest. Thanks.

I'll be the guy who says what you did re: LSAT prep was not enough.

I did not bother quoting your original post, but you said you did 30 LSAT tests over the course of two years? You need to do all 80 (or whatever)...and then do them again. You should probably take a class, or maybe at least hire a tutor for a couple sessions. You need to look over every right and wrong answer and write out why it is right and why the others were wrong (particularly in the arguments). The arguments and the puzzles are insanely learnable. You need to be able to do every game in your sleep, to the point that the answers start to come to you without physically having to draw out the pictures. You just have not put enough into it. I acknowledge that you have put some, but the sheer gravity of the situation still does not seem to be appreciated by you. The amount that a few additional LSAT points will get you, admissions or $$ wise, is completely absurd.

Perhaps you'll respond with something about lack of money to devote enough time and all that and then you'll talk about how you don't have enough $ for a class either, but if you are seriously contemplating severely limiting your options in the way that you are [by going to temple] for the amount you're going to end up spending on it, both in opportunity cost and tuition, it's worth taking out a small loan to finance your living for a few months so that you can live this test. additionally, a lot of classes give finaid.

you clearly have the aptitude--you got into a top UG and excelled there. of LSAT-type standarized tests, the LSAT is the one that most closely correlates to IQ (I have read this a couple times, but I don't feel like finding the source to cite it). part of the reason everybody on this thread is so adamant is because you could get at least a decent LSAT score if you really applied yourself.

so yeah--you are not doing enough. I did not let myself take the LSAT until I was getting 177+ on every single practice test I took. I thought this would take a year (of college). it ended up taking three--two years of college, one year of FT job, but I ended up getting a score I was really happy with. it was not a 177, but I got perfect scores on every section besides the RC, and that was when I knew I could not do any better. take your time. you'll get there.

I wonder how many people who have gotten into T14 universities have actually done what you have and what you're suggesting that I do. Your answer, in a nutshell, is "you studied hard, now study more and 'live this exam', make this the focus and sole purpose of your life until you finally break that 170 barrier". I could be wrong, but I sincerely believe that I've already studied more than the average T14 student. Members can correct me on this. And while I applaud your mental fortitude and devotion, I will say that it is not how I hope to spend the next few years. Not to mention that you make the assumption that because you did this, that I can pull it off too since it has proven to work for you. You also make the assumption that since I did well at a "top UG" that I have the aptitude. Then you equal aptitude with IQ and correlate that to LSAT score. A big leap. Since we both believe that IQ is correlated to LSAT score, you should at least recognize that we have different IQs and that possibly yours is a lot higher than mine, thus making you achieve a higher score on the LSAT, and not necessarily owing to the study methods that you hope I espouse. Study harder is all too easy to say, but we're different people with different circumstances; I cannot just drop everything and make this commitment on a leap of faith.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

If you want anecdotes, my brother-in-law went to Temple Law and is doing very well for himself. Of course, he was like top five in his class. Not top 5%. Like top five students. I don't think he'd advise going to Temple with your GPA.

Good insight. Thanks very much!