UVA ($$$) vs Stanford ($$) Forum

[Ti Malice]

UVA grad who had somewhat similar interests as you going into law school: Stanford and it's not even close.


Those jobs are just absurdly competitive and the truth is that they are only really impressed with three law schools and Stanford is one of them. I remember having a couple people from the DOJ come to put on presentations where they said they try to limit their hiring to law review at Harvard and Stanford but sometimes will hire "top of class + law review at schools like Columbia and UVA". Honestly when I heard that kind of talk/mentality it turned me off but that's irrelevant for your purposes...That being said a lot of these types of employers actually hire from all over the rankings spectrum. But they people they hire are almost universally fed clerks, law review, top of class etc.

Bottom line: if you want a realistic shot at those types of jobs going into law school 75K is a fair additional amount to pay. Not to mention the massive jump in biglaw security if that ever does become an interest (i.e. at Stanford you'll get it, whereas at UVA it's 50/50).

Also I believe that SLS LRAP is significantly better than UVA's as well.

This. Have people gone completely insane? Maybe if the OP didn't have any need-based aid from Stanford we could seriously debate this. But only a 75k difference and he prob wants LRAP and the DOJ? This isn't even a question. Stanford hands down. Fuck UVA.

I agree. I am pretty surprised that there are so many votes for UVA. It's a 75k difference. People decide between t6 and t14 with a 60k diff, calling it a wash. For OP's Doj interest, this can't possibly be a close question. UVA is a great school, but OP you'll be among like 180? Students at SLS, one of the most portable schools in the country (with need based aid and an excellent LRAP for PI work!). I seriously cannot believe that people view this as a close call.

I'm with these folks. SLS, and it's not close.

[SLS_AMG]

As a UVA student going through the OGI process, I can't emphasize enough how SLS is the better option. To have a solid chance at DC from UVA, you need to be top 1/4 - and make no mistake, UVA is competitive as hell. I'm top 1/3 and CSO still told me I can't rely on OGI.

75k difference is a lot of money - but the better job security is worth it times a million. Plus, SLS will also help you when you decide to leave biglaw (I can't state specifically how, but my gut tells me there are intangibles)

FWIW, not a day goes by where I don't regret going to UVA

1. As a 1L you need to calm the fuck down. It's a stressful time for students everywhere.
2. Bottom of SLS doesn't just waltz into DC. Its no secret that DC is competitive.
3. In pure #s (not % of class) UVA is regularly second to H in summers in DC
4. If you regret going to UVA everyday, god help you. It's the most enjoyable experience of any T10 school.

Really? You've attended every top-ten school?

[daleearnhardt123]

As a UVA student going through the OGI process, I can't emphasize enough how SLS is the better option. To have a solid chance at DC from UVA, you need to be top 1/4 - and make no mistake, UVA is competitive as hell. I'm top 1/3 and CSO still told me I can't rely on OGI.

75k difference is a lot of money - but the better job security is worth it times a million. Plus, SLS will also help you when you decide to leave biglaw (I can't state specifically how, but my gut tells me there are intangibles)

FWIW, not a day goes by where I don't regret going to UVA

1. As a 1L you need to calm the fuck down. It's a stressful time for students everywhere.
2. Bottom of SLS doesn't just waltz into DC. Its no secret that DC is competitive.
3. In pure #s (not % of class) UVA is regularly second to H in summers in DC
4. If you regret going to UVA everyday, god help you. It's the most enjoyable experience of any T10 school.

Really? You've attended every top-ten school?

You're right, my bad. I haven't attended a lot of T2 schools and therefore it would be wrong of me to state that they have inferior employment outcomes. More analogous; I have lived in neither San Diego nor Detroit. It would be wrong of me to state that in San Diego you enjoy a better quality of life.

[igo2northwestern]

As a UVA student going through the OGI process, I can't emphasize enough how SLS is the better option. To have a solid chance at DC from UVA, you need to be top 1/4 - and make no mistake, UVA is competitive as hell. I'm top 1/3 and CSO still told me I can't rely on OGI.

75k difference is a lot of money - but the better job security is worth it times a million. Plus, SLS will also help you when you decide to leave biglaw (I can't state specifically how, but my gut tells me there are intangibles)

FWIW, not a day goes by where I don't regret going to UVA

1. As a 1L you need to calm the fuck down. It's a stressful time for students everywhere.
2. Bottom of SLS doesn't just waltz into DC. Its no secret that DC is competitive.
3. In pure #s (not % of class) UVA is regularly second to H in summers in DC
4. If you regret going to UVA everyday, god help you. It's the most enjoyable experience of any T10 school.

Really? You've attended every top-ten school?

You're right, my bad. I haven't attended a lot of T2 schools and therefore it would be wrong of me to state that they have inferior employment outcomes. More analogous; I have lived in neither San Diego nor Detroit. It would be wrong of me to state that in San Diego you enjoy a better quality of life.

These are horribly inapplicable comparisons. You were speaking in the context of T10 schools -- UVa versus Berkeley, Penn, Michigan, etc. Concede, and move on. NBD, we get that you had/are having a great time.

[DrStudMuffin]

As a UVA student going through the OGI process, I can't emphasize enough how SLS is the better option. To have a solid chance at DC from UVA, you need to be top 1/4 - and make no mistake, UVA is competitive as hell. I'm top 1/3 and CSO still told me I can't rely on OGI.

75k difference is a lot of money - but the better job security is worth it times a million. Plus, SLS will also help you when you decide to leave biglaw (I can't state specifically how, but my gut tells me there are intangibles)

FWIW, not a day goes by where I don't regret going to UVA

1. As a 1L you need to calm the fuck down. It's a stressful time for students everywhere.
2. Bottom of SLS doesn't just waltz into DC. Its no secret that DC is competitive.
3. In pure #s (not % of class) UVA is regularly second to H in summers in DC
4. If you regret going to UVA everyday, god help you. It's the most enjoyable experience of any T10 school.

Really? You've attended every top-ten school?

You're right, my bad. I haven't attended a lot of T2 schools and therefore it would be wrong of me to state that they have inferior employment outcomes. More analogous; I have lived in neither San Diego nor Detroit. It would be wrong of me to state that in San Diego you enjoy a better quality of life.

Yeah, because it's totally super obvious that QOL and enjoyability of law school experiences are much better at UVA than at Stanford. You don't even have to visit Stanford to know that.

You're an idiot.

[daleearnhardt123]

1. As a 1L you need to calm the fuck down. It's a stressful time for students everywhere.
2. Bottom of SLS doesn't just waltz into DC. Its no secret that DC is competitive.
3. In pure #s (not % of class) UVA is regularly second to H in summers in DC
4. If you regret going to UVA everyday, god help you. It's the most enjoyable experience of any T10 school.

Really? You've attended every top-ten school?

You're right, my bad. I haven't attended a lot of T2 schools and therefore it would be wrong of me to state that they have inferior employment outcomes. More analogous; I have lived in neither San Diego nor Detroit. It would be wrong of me to state that in San Diego you enjoy a better quality of life.

Yeah, because it's totally super obvious that QOL and enjoyability of law school experiences are much better at UVA than at Stanford. You don't even have to visit Stanford to know that.

You're an idiot.

Didn't use the term QOL in my original post. Used it in my analogy. But you're right. It's completely idiotic to make statements about restaurants in a given city until you've been to every single one. Also useless comparing cities until you've traveled to all of them. While we're at it--impossible to compare countries until you've visited them all.

OR, you can just adopt the consensus viewpoint, one that's surely born from an amalgamation of experiences across all schools, and acknowledge that UVA is on the whole the most enjoyable T10. Was that so difficult?

[swampman]

OR, you can just adopt the consensus viewpoint, one that's surely born from an amalgamation of experiences across all schools, and acknowledge that UVA is on the whole the most enjoyable T10. Was that so difficult?

Look, I'm psyched to be headed to UVA this year. But if I went to Yale then I could just play beer pong with undergrads for 8 hours a day and then clerk for the supreme court or whatever those bastards do.

UVA is awesome. But Stanford is awesomer.

[jbagelboy]

OR, you can just adopt the consensus viewpoint, one that's surely born from an amalgamation of experiences across all schools, and acknowledge that UVA is on the whole the most enjoyable T10. Was that so difficult?

Look, I'm psyched to be headed to UVA this year. But if I went to Yale then I could just play beer pong with undergrads for 8 hours a day and then clerk for the supreme court or whatever those bastards do.

UVA is awesome. But Stanford is awesomer.

i know you're exaggerating, but this is really missing the point

[swampman]

OR, you can just adopt the consensus viewpoint, one that's surely born from an amalgamation of experiences across all schools, and acknowledge that UVA is on the whole the most enjoyable T10. Was that so difficult?

Look, I'm psyched to be headed to UVA this year. But if I went to Yale then I could just play beer pong with undergrads for 8 hours a day and then clerk for the supreme court or whatever those bastards do.

UVA is awesome. But Stanford is awesomer.

i know you're exaggerating, but this is really missing the point

Sorry, I thought the point had been addressed already. Thought we were at the mindless bickering stage already.

[DrStudMuffin]

In all seriousness OP, I made a similar decision with even less aid from SLS, and I am absolutely sure I made the right decision. Granted I'm still a 0L, and paying back the loans will blow in three years, but SLS with 35k/year is nearly unbeatable as a law school outcome in my opinion, particularly for someone with your goals (which says something about how ridiculous law school tuition is in general, but here we are).

Feel free to PM me if you want more details/input.

[daleearnhardt123]

In all seriousness OP, I made a similar decision with even less aid from SLS, and I am absolutely sure I made the right decision. Granted I'm still a 0L, and paying back the loans will blow in three years, but SLS with 35k/year is nearly unbeatable as a law school outcome in my opinion, particularly for someone with your goals (which says something about how ridiculous law school tuition is in general, but here we are).

Feel free to PM me if you want more details/input.

This is hysterical.

[DrStudMuffin]

Sorry, let me rephrase. I am absolutely sure I made the right decision given the information available to me at the time and my status as a 0L. Perhaps in three years I will feel differently and will regret my decision, but I suspect that won't be the case. Sufficient?

[jd20132013]

it's still funny, btw. maybe you missed why he was laughing

[DrStudMuffin]

I assume it's because a 0L supposedly can't be absolutely sure of anything, which is counter to the point he was making earlier about how one doesn't need to experience something in order to comment knowledgeably on it. If it's something else, then yes I missed it. Either way I'm done engaging in this.

[TheSpanishMain]

Dumb question, but how does 20,500 x 3 = 75,000?

[transferror]

Dumb question, but how does 20,500 x 3 = 75,000?

With interest, COA ends up being 70k at repayment. 75 is close enough. That 5k isn't going to change the equation.

[daleearnhardt123]

Dumb question, but how does 20,500 x 3 = 75,000?

61,500 at ~ 7% interest should = ~13k in interest in 3 years. So in a quick, back-of-the-envelope type way, it's roughly accurate.

More to the point, though, OP said he/she was budgeting to borrow 20.5k for living expenses in charlottesville. This is absolutely absurd, and even living a life of luxury would probably not entail this kind of loan amount unless you were eating at a restaurant every night of the week. I was able to do it on 12k per year, in a 2bedroom apt w/ roommate, without feeling stressed at all. At 36k instead of 61,500k in principal, this makes the SLS v. UVA question more like a 100k difference.

Sure, maybe OP is bound to be bottom of his class and thus unemployed if he's at UVA, whereas he'd probably be employed in biglaw at SLS. But if OP is capable of doing even reasonably well, he will likely enter the same type of job out of either school. The only difference will be that if he takes the SLS path, he will only be able to gaze longingly at [random 2bedroom condo] that he would like to purchase. Out of UVA, it could be a reality within a year. This thread has done little more than confirm that TLS is prestige-whorish to the max, topped off with a great deal of risk averseness.

[anon sequitur]

Sure, maybe OP is bound to be bottom of his class and thus unemployed if he's at UVA, whereas he'd probably be employed in biglaw at SLS. But if OP is capable of doing even reasonably well, he will likely enter the same type of job out of either school.

This is news to me.

[jbagelboy]

Sure, maybe OP is bound to be bottom of his class and thus unemployed if he's at UVA, whereas he'd probably be employed in biglaw at SLS. But if OP is capable of doing even reasonably well, he will likely enter the same type of job out of either school.

This is news to me.

It's true, but it's not the whole story. The SLS summers at my 1L firm didn't get larger offices than their UVA counterparts. On the other hand, there are positions where the difference in grade-consciousness is real b/t the two schools, and others where coming from Stanford makes you a more competitive applicant (not saying its impossible from one school and not the other, but there's some distinction for the gigs OP seeks to target). And as you cited, if Op sucks at law school and has to fall back on OCI, you have to have like <3H, bid egregiously and interview poorly to strike out at stanford. This relief isn't worth sticker, or even half, but as I explained in my previous post all factors taken together it's worth paying the extra $75K.

This is likely all academic since Op would have made their choice already.

[NYSprague]

Just go to Stanford. This Dillard isn't enough to keep you happy.

[rpupkin]

I voted SLS because of your career interests, though I think it's a reasonably close question; you wouldn't be crazy to go with UVA and the Dillard.

One more factor to consider: is SLS's need-based aid guaranteed? At most schools, they promise you a certain level of need-based aid for the first year and then you have to re-apply for your second and third years. It's not like a merit-based scholarship. If your (or your family's) financial situation doesn't change while you're in law school, and if you don't earn any income from jobs while you're in law school, then your need-based aid probably won't change. But it's something to keep in mind.

[sundance95]

Is Dillard UVA's top scholly? Have you hit UVA up to see if they'll up their offer?

I went to UVA and fucking loved it, but that LRAP difference is extreme. Your SLS downside scenario is deciding that you'd actually rather work biglaw, in which case you will be in a class that market paying employers will hire deeper into but will have to pay back an extra $75K in loans. That would be less than ideal, but hardly tragic; taking that risk for a better chance at what the career path you are currently interested in seems sensible to me.

[sundance95]

I voted SLS because of your career interests, though I think it's a reasonably close question; you wouldn't be crazy to go with UVA and the Dillard.

One more factor to consider: is SLS's need-based aid guaranteed? At most schools, they promise you a certain level of need-based aid for the first year and then you have to re-apply for your second and third years. It's not like a merit-based scholarship. If your (or your family's) financial situation doesn't change while you're in law school, and if you don't earn any income from jobs while you're in law school, then your need-based aid probably won't change. But it's something to keep in mind.

I'd be stunned if SLS fucked with schollies once they were given, but I guess it's worth knowing.

[rpupkin]

I voted SLS because of your career interests, though I think it's a reasonably close question; you wouldn't be crazy to go with UVA and the Dillard.

One more factor to consider: is SLS's need-based aid guaranteed? At most schools, they promise you a certain level of need-based aid for the first year and then you have to re-apply for your second and third years. It's not like a merit-based scholarship. If your (or your family's) financial situation doesn't change while you're in law school, and if you don't earn any income from jobs while you're in law school, then your need-based aid probably won't change. But it's something to keep in mind.

I'd be stunned if SLS fucked with schollies once they were given, but I guess it's worth knowing.

To be clear, the top schools don't "fuck with schollies" when it's a merit scholarship. Unlike the TTT schools, a T14 school will generally make the merit scholarship contingent on maintaining "good academic standing" or something like that—which usually just means that you have to not flunk out.

But need-based aid is different. As of a few years ago, at least, HLS would reevaluate need-based aid every year and would reduce it if, say, you got a 1L SA. I'd actually be surprised if SLS doesn't do something similar.

[BruceWayne]

Dumb question, but how does 20,500 x 3 = 75,000?

61,500 at ~ 7% interest should = ~13k in interest in 3 years. So in a quick, back-of-the-envelope type way, it's roughly accurate.

More to the point, though, OP said he/she was budgeting to borrow 20.5k for living expenses in charlottesville. This is absolutely absurd, and even living a life of luxury would probably not entail this kind of loan amount unless you were eating at a restaurant every night of the week. I was able to do it on 12k per year, in a 2bedroom apt w/ roommate, without feeling stressed at all. At 36k instead of 61,500k in principal, this makes the SLS v. UVA question more like a 100k difference.

Sure, maybe OP is bound to be bottom of his class and thus unemployed if he's at UVA, whereas he'd probably be employed in biglaw at SLS. But if OP is capable of doing even reasonably well, he will likely enter the same type of job out of either school. The only difference will be that if he takes the SLS path, he will only be able to gaze longingly at [random 2bedroom condo] that he would like to purchase. Out of UVA, it could be a reality within a year. This thread has done little more than confirm that TLS is prestige-whorish to the max, topped off with a great deal of risk averseness.

You have got to be joking. If you land below median at UVA you are in A TON of trouble in terms of getting a job. Once you get down to bottom 1/3 it's even worse. People who have actually faced this market from these schools will tell you that it is not a game out here. This market is absolutely horrendous. Another thing is that UVA's grading system makes it very easy to end up in a position where you're not just below median, but well below. UVA professors give out a lot of A+/A grades and thus a lot of B- and C grades to still hit that 3.3 mean.

And lol at the idea of being able to just waltz into schools of this level and guarantee that you will beat out a large percentage of your classmates.