GGU (accepted) or USF (wl but should know soon) Forum

[marksteere]

i think you have expectations that aren't in line with reality here

You may be right, but not for the reasons you might think. My biggest concern is my slow reading rate. I'm reading the Examples and Explanations books that correspond with my classes to get a head start. On a good day, I can only read about 60 pages. And that's with nothing else to do. If that's not good enough, then I'm not going to make it.

I haven't worked in decades. I'm a big, overgrown trust fund baby. I don't have an answer to the "What do you do?" question. "Er, uh....." I've become somewhat isolated, though this may be a function of my personality. I took an online Asperger's test and scored well into the "probably has it" range. I've had interesting hobbies, like taking a couple years to learn tenor sax, jazz theory. But nothing really meaningful. I hang out at my wife's gym, hoping trouble makers will come in so I can toss them out. Not literally of course. If it gets beyond the getting in their face stage I call 911. I'm bored in life.

I did a volunteership with the PD office in SF and that was the most fun I've had in years. We took four months, two in pre-trial and two in trial, to put an (alleged) murderer back on the street. That whole experience was very worthwhile.

Priorities:
75% Pass the California bar, the hardest bar in the country. When you're a trust fund baby, you're thought of as a nincompoop. I understand that. I think of other trust fund babies as nincompoops. You have to prove yourself otherwise by achieving difficult, challenging objectives. I know people who have gone through law school, failed the bar at least once, and gave up.
20% Having fun in law school. Correspondence won't be fun. I want to intermingle with actual people, smell their perfume, jostle with them, etc. You don't get that from a computer screen. If the professor ridicules me for not knowing fine points, that's ok. I can handle it. I know it'll be tough going for a sustained period. I've never done anything continuously for four years. It took me eight years to get through undergrad because I needed so many breaks.
5% Getting a job. If I manage to get a few clients, great. If not, oh well.
0% Worrying about money. Total non-issue. No loans necessary.

I understand that GGU and USF don't have inter-regional reach, but I might want to take the bar somewhere else, for the same reason I want to take it here in CA. Given that money doesn't matter, it just seems strategically unsound to go to a non-ABA school. I know GGU is at the low end, prestige-wise, but two things: Any ABA school is a good school (I think). And, if they have a little bit of an inferiority complex, maybe this is a good thing. I don't want to be subjected to stuck-upedness at any age, especially as an old guy. I can handle being ridiculed by the professor. What I can't handle is seeing poopy expressions on twenty-somethings' faces directed at me.

No offense taken about the "old people" lowdown. This is a good dose of reality, and I understand it. Old people generally suck, but there's nothing I can do about that so why worry.

I hope this wasn't too much information. You guys have been cool and, in all sincerity, very helpful. You seem curious about my motivations, so, welcome to my world

[johnnyquest]

If you have a lot of free time take the LSAT more seriously. Use this site and all of its resources to prep properly. If you start now...and really dedicate yourself to it, you can be ready by the time the next LSAT test in late September rolls around. Since money isn't an object, that's awesome that you won't have to worry about scholarships so just focus on getting into the best school possible. Hastings would be a significant upgrade and you won't really have to increase your score that dramatically. If you really do well...even better opportunities are in play.

[BigZuck]

This is bizarre

Anyway OP, please don't pay a bunch of money to go to a toilet like GGU or USF. Go to a California accredited school and then donate the difference in tuition to charity. You need to understand that you're going to be throwing your money away regardless. Don't overpay for that piece of paper. I respect the wanting to get a JD cuz YOLO and it's your money but please don't use all of it to just line the pockets of those fat cat scammer law school deans. Put some of it to good use and give it to people who need it.

Also, if you're looking for something intellectually stimulating, law school is like the last kind of school you should be enrolling in.

[twenty]

Okay, with that being the case, absolutely USF. They place 3 times as many students in public interest positions as GGU, their bar passage rate is noticeably higher, and frankly USF is just in a nicer part of town/nicer campus to begin with. Unless you like feeling like you're taking classes in a small office building.

[eriedoctrine]

USF, given all that you have said in this thread.

No one would respect a GGU law degree and may think less of you for it.
At least USF as an institution on the whole is somewhat reputable and is ranked on USnews.
Their law school has actually cracked the T2 rankings in the past so there's also that.

[drumstickies]

I think you've gotten some great advice here.

One thing to add-- if you really are set on law school and are from Palo Alto, why not retake for a couple more points and apply early to Santa Clara? You might get in. It's slightly more reputable, at least among the lay, and you wouldn't have a killer commute.

[rickgrimes69]

OP, how boring is your life that you think attending law school will blow your hair back?

[NorCalLaw]

Law school is actually pretty intensive. It might seem like a fun novelty at first, but if you're looking for an easy thrill it will wear you down rapidly. In all likelihood, you will not have a good time. The SF PD office will not hire you under any circumstances, unless maybe you offer to work for free. Even then, they have their pick of brilliant candidates.

[twenty]

Haha, the SF PD's office has like a <1% applicant hire rate right now. You could be volunteering for 1-2 years and not get a job there.

[Tanicius]

Haha, the SF PD's office has like a <1% applicant hire rate right now. You could be volunteering for 1-2 years and not get a job there.

They never hire their volunteers, in fact. They only hire laterals from other offices with extensive trial experience.

[twenty]

I'm thinking that might be a product of ITE, but tomato potato; either way no one should ever go to law school with the expectation of working in for SF PD.

[rdawkins28]

Another old guy here. I know where you're coming from. My law partner and I were both in our mid 40s when we started law school. He made his money in finance, and I in computers. We're not wealthy, but we're pretty comfortable.

We both went into law school because we always wanted to. We paid retail for a TTTT. We could afford it and we just wanted a degree so we can take the bar. Now we have got a nice little part-time business going, mostly from his connections in the finance world. He still does some financing stuff and I still do some computers stuff. So we're very relaxed and enjoy our work.

To me, what was important about the law school that it catered to people like me. So I chose a school with a part-time program since they know how to treat old guys like me. And I deliberately chose a TTTT, though I did get accepted to a top 50 school, and so did my legal partner. I didn't care about the prestige or finding a biglaw job. I didn't want a whole lot of competition or a bunch of kids. And I didn't want to be around the types on TLS whose every other word is "retake."

So if I were you, I'd go to whatever school that's more relaxing for people in 40s and 50s.

[BigZuck]

Another old guy here. I know where you're coming from. My law partner and I were both in our mid 40s when we started law school. He made his money in finance, and I in computers. We're not wealthy, but we're pretty comfortable.

We both went into law school because we always wanted to. We paid retail for a TTTT. We could afford it and we just wanted a degree so we can take the bar. Now we have got a nice little part-time business going, mostly from his connections in the finance world. He still does some financing stuff and I still do some computers stuff. So we're very relaxed and enjoy our work.

To me, what was important about the law school that it catered to people like me. So I chose a school with a part-time program since they know how to treat old guys like me. And I deliberately chose a TTTT, though I did get accepted to a top 50 school, and so did my legal partner. I didn't care about the prestige or finding a biglaw job. I didn't want a whole lot of competition or a bunch of kids. And I didn't want to be around the types on TLS whose every other word is "retake."

So if I were you, I'd go to whatever school that's more relaxing for people in 40s and 50s.

Further lining the pockets of those TTTT scam artists is pretty messed up though. Shoulda retook, gone for cheapsies, and then put that money to an actual good use.

You boomers really are the lost generation.

Eta: OP- please don't be this guy

[marksteere]

OP, how boring is your life that you think attending law school will blow your hair back?

I guess the implication is that law school is totally boring. I find that hard to believe. To me as a 0L, law school seems interesting, it's something to do that's socially engaging, and it'll provide me with an answer to the "What do you do?" question if I ever pass the bar, and however few clients I end up getting. What else should I do?

Santa Clara rejected me. My GPA was 2.3 and my resume is a blank page. I was lucky to get into GGU. I was waitlisted there for a long time and had to send them a ton of additional material to convince them.

I can't express how much I don't want to do the lsat again. If it would guarantee me a spot at a better school then maybe. But it's just more torture, more time wasted, and for what? More limbo. I'd almost rather go to prison or have the end of my pinky chopped off.

Ok, so no SF PD office. It was just a thought.

Good to hear, rdawkins. Thanks.

[BigZuck]

To me as a 0L, law school seems interesting

For the most part it's not. Really.

it's something to do that's socially engaging

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. If you like engaging socially with the types of people who go to law school/become lawyers, I guess it's socially engaging.

and it'll provide me with an answer to the "What do you do?" question if I ever pass the bar

It will probably help you little in actual practice. It might help you pass the bar.

[moneybagsphd]

Another old guy here. I know where you're coming from. My law partner and I were both in our mid 40s when we started law school. He made his money in finance, and I in computers. We're not wealthy, but we're pretty comfortable.

We both went into law school because we always wanted to. We paid retail for a TTTT. We could afford it and we just wanted a degree so we can take the bar. Now we have got a nice little part-time business going, mostly from his connections in the finance world. He still does some financing stuff and I still do some computers stuff. So we're very relaxed and enjoy our work.

To me, what was important about the law school that it catered to people like me. So I chose a school with a part-time program since they know how to treat old guys like me. And I deliberately chose a TTTT, though I did get accepted to a top 50 school, and so did my legal partner. I didn't care about the prestige or finding a biglaw job. I didn't want a whole lot of competition or a bunch of kids. And I didn't want to be around the types on TLS whose every other word is "retake."

So if I were you, I'd go to whatever school that's more relaxing for people in 40s and 50s.

Further lining the pockets of those TTTT scam artists is pretty messed up though. Shoulda retook, gone for cheapsies, and then put that money to an actual good use.

You boomers really are the lost generation.

Eta: OP- please don't be this guy

[marksteere]

You boomers really are the lost generation.

At least we made it this far. There's no guarantee for the likes of you.

[Tanicius]

You boomers really are the lost generation.

At least we made it this far. There's no guarantee for the likes of you.

Well yeah, not when you guys have your hands on the nuclear S&P ratings.

[rdawkins28]

....

Further lining the pockets of those TTTT scam artists is pretty messed up though. Shoulda retook, gone for cheapsies, and then put that money to an actual good use.

You boomers really are the lost generation.

Eta: OP- please don't be this guy

Sadly for you, OP is already like me; i.e. he has money and law will not be his primary income. You need to get it into your head that not everyone is the same as the TLS assimilated collective.

Not everyone needs to retake to go to a T14 for free.

One guy I went to my TTTTTTTTTT toilet bowl was mega rich. He just wanted to be lawyer. Didn't need to go to Yale and kill himself. For his needs, and mine, TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT sh*thole was good enough to get a degree and pass the bar. His claim to fame at this law school was taking his classmates out for drinks. After he graduated, he donated back to the school and has a meeting room named after him. The school was perfect for him.

And at this school we went too, the majority of the part time students in our class were people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s. They don't fit your typical TLS student profile.

And yes, I know it's shocking to you that some people are actually different.

[jk148706]

Further lining the pockets of those TTTT scam artists is pretty messed up though. Shoulda retook, gone for cheapsies, and then put that money to an actual good use.

You boomers really are the lost generation.

Eta: OP- please don't be this guy

Could not agree more. Please don't give money to these TTTs only to perpetuate their scam

[should-i-do-it]

I didn't read through everything so I'm not sure exactly what you wish to achieve by going to law school, but if you're looking to get a job as a lawyer avoid these schools. USF gives you a 36% chance of getting a full time job as a lawyer and GGU a 22% chance. Retake or do something else bro.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... isco/jobs/

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/goldengate/jobs/

[A. Nony Mouse]

I didn't read through everything so I'm not sure exactly what you wish to achieve by going to law school, but if you're looking to get a job as a lawyer avoid these schools. USF gives you a 36% chance of getting a full time job as a lawyer and GGU a 22% chance. Retake or do something else bro.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... isco/jobs/

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/goldengate/jobs/

These have been posted already.

[rickgrimes69]

OP, how boring is your life that you think attending law school will blow your hair back?

I guess the implication is that law school is totally boring. I find that hard to believe. To me as a 0L, law school seems interesting, it's something to do that's socially engaging, and it'll provide me with an answer to the "What do you do?" question if I ever pass the bar, and however few clients I end up getting. What else should I do?

Have you ever sat through a law school class? Ever sat down and read a case front to back? Ever thought about what it would be like to do that hundreds of times for three years straight?

Here's the thing, dood: despite the fact that law can be pretty interesting, generally the study and practice of it is not. You seem to have this image of law school where everyone sits around in a circle and Socratic method's each other in some divine search for the truth. In reality, you'll be taking predetermined classes for 1L, most of which you'll find boring as shit. Cold calls consist of an equal mix of obnoxious Type-A classmates arguing with the professor over an irrelevant point to show off how smart they think they sound and professors berating the slackers who didn't do the reading, wasting everyone's time in the process. After class, you'll go home to read and take notes on dozens to hundreds of pages of cases in preparation for tomorrow, where you'll repeat the whole wretched process.

And as for exams? If you would rather go to prison than retake the LSAT, a completely learnable four hour exam, law school is going to go extremely poorly for you. Your grades are 100% determined by nothing but a series of four - eight hour exams, and these are usually way more arbitrary and random than the LSAT. Not to mention the fact that, unlike the LSAT, in law school you're preparing for 3-4 at once.

Santa Clara rejected me. My GPA was 2.3 and my resume is a blank page. I was lucky to get into GGU. I was waitlisted there for a long time and had to send them a ton of additional material to convince them.

This is really, honestly, sort of pathetic. I'm not trying to be mean, but you need to understand that getting waitlisted to GGU is like getting waitlisted to community college. You keep acting like TLS is some elitist stronghold that parrots "T14 or bust." It's not - there are plenty (including myself) who routinely advocate attending a strong regional school instead of a T14 in order to keep costs low. You're doing neither of those things here. You're considering attending what is quite literally, with no hyperbole, one of the very worst schools in the nation, and paying full sticker price for the privilege. That's as unconscionable as somebody pouring six figures into Amway or Herbalife or some other bullshit MLM scam because "some people made a lot of money."

Bottom line: if you really think attending GGU with a bunch of other burnouts will give your life meaning and purpose, go right ahead, it's a free country. But don't expect anybody here to validate such an objectively idiotic decision.

[marksteere]

These have been posted already.

The mouse with elephant genes never forgets.

[marksteere]

Have you ever sat through a law school class? Ever sat down and read a case front to back? Ever thought about what it would be like to do that hundreds of times for three years straight?

I sat through two classes. One at GGU and one at USF. There were a small handful of students in both classes that seemed like "regulars" - students that knew what was going on and could be relied on to produce an intelligent response other than "Can you repeat the question?" There were also people sitting in the back, hiding behind their laptop screens, projecting the message "Don't ever call on me." The small, knowledgeable, ready group seemed to be enjoying themselves, they seemed to be well respected, and this is the group I hope to be in.

I haven't read any cases except for samples in the E&E books.

After class, you'll go home to read and take notes on dozens to hundreds of pages of cases in preparation for tomorrow, where you'll repeat the whole wretched process.

The "hundreds of pages" notion, which I've heard before, is the one thing that has me worried. I'm taking night school, and I know from personal experience that four classes are a lot easier than five. I plan to work hard almost every day. But so far, the most pages I've read in a day is about 65. If any one thing sinks my battleship in law school, it'll be my too slow reading speed, although I'm working on ramping it up every day.

Santa Clara rejected me. My GPA was 2.3 and my resume is a blank page. I was lucky to get into GGU. I was waitlisted there for a long time and had to send them a ton of additional material to convince them.

This is really, honestly, sort of pathetic.

Believe it or not, I appreciate your candor and constructive criticism, Rick. I'm still going to go through with law school because I'm already on track for it (have been for at least a year now), I'm still psyched about it (more than ever), and I don't have anything else to do that I can think of that would meet my goal of making me a professional of some sort. I don't want to be a male nurse or an actuary or anything else that I know of that's available to me. Law is a good fit.

I understand that GGU is considered a "toilet bowl" because it's at the low end of the US News scale. I heard that 100 times before I ever posted here. But if you look a little beyond the statistics, the GGU professors are well thought of, and they've got some good programs, especially in litigation. I know, I know. No school prepares you for the courtroom. But GGU makes a pretty good effort to do that. During the slow moments of my volunteership with the SF PD office, of which there were many, I read the profiles of the lawyers there. There were probably more graduates of GGU than any other school, if I remember correctly. Yes there were a lot of Boalt's and Hastings' etc., but not as many as GGU's. (I wish I still had access to the profiles so I could verify, but I don't.) The judge whose face I looked at every day during the murder trial was a GGU grad. GGU is not as hopeless as the endless "toilet bowl" analogies make it sound.

Most areas of law hold no interest for me, such as tax law, international law, real estate law, public interest, etc. But litigation and criminal law are interesting, at least to me. I read the Criminal Law and Law of Torts E&E's, and they both seemed interesting. I just started on the Contracts E&E, and that seems good too. Hopefully I will have time to read the Civ Pro E&E before the end of the summer.

What's so painful about the lsat is its pointlessness and its randomness. The first time I took a timed, practice lsat, I had done no preparation whatsoever and I got a 150. Then I studied for months about the pointless topics of how many kids will sit on the left side of the school bus on f'ing Tuesday [scream]. Said studying included practice exams where I got low 160's. Then I took the exam for real and got a 150 - the exact same score I got with zero practice! So I did it all again and got a 154. At least with law study I'll be learning some actual material. The other things that make the lsat pointless for me are my low GPA and blank resume and old age. Even with a slightly higher lsat score, the other local schools still probably wouldn't take me. Enough is enough already with the lsat.

When I was a lot younger, in high school and college, I would finish math tests in a fraction of the time, way before anyone else, and get the highest score in the class. Now I'm old and my brain doesn't work as fast. It works about as well, but just not as fast. Timed tests don't work for me like they used to. I don't want to waste any more time with the lsat for a big "maybe" - possibly even a lower score. F that. I'm ready to go forward, now.

The topic of money keeps coming up, and I understand that. It's a normal concern for the typical, struggling student. But I'm not typical. If I flunk out, I won't care about the lost money. If I graduate and pass the bar, it'll be money well spent just for that much progress, even if I never work.