Michigan v.s. Penn Forum

[jbagelboy]

I edited out your numbers per your request, feel free to do so with your own quote.

People on here are entitled to the full picture. I know well grounded posters like MG and ymmv would be giving different advice if you were transparent. I understand you want to limit the scope of the inquiry to a false dilemma, but we shouldn't be here to indulge your poor decision-making. Your parents and friends can do that. We are anonymous so that we can be critical; I'm not "into you," I don't know who you are or ultimately care about your choices, but you would be surprised by how many times people who are initially immune to good advice and act dismissive eventually come around and are forever thankful to us for doing so.

The situation didn't really "change" with the Michigan admit. The decision remains whether you will be careless with your finances and opportunities, or take the mature route and invest your full potential into your future - a lesson in delayed gratification.

[ymmv]

And yet ironically he still has his own numbers quoted in his post.
OP: do yourself and your family maybe the biggest favor of your young life and listen to jbagelboy on this one.

[coreaves23]

Stop feeding OP bland answers as if this is a legitimate choice.

We already answered you in a previous thread. You have to retake the LSAT, take time off and reapply, both for you, your fiance, and your future family. Either choice for next year is reckless and unnecessary given your massive room for improvement (Just FYI everyone, OP has 4.0+/162 and would be k-jd).

Also just because you edited out the posts in your old thread doesn't mean we can't see them :/

Circumstances have changed with Michigan admit. Thank you for your advice, but I am not going to retake, take time off, or reapply. I'm a big boy and if things don't work out that will be on me. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't post my numbers. Appears you have taken a liking to me and I am flattered/creeped out. I only did that because someone linked my LSN profile. Didn't know you could still see.

You don't sound like you're that big of a boy if you're K-JD

I get it man, I really do. I was right there with you. Thought that being an agent would be cool, wanted to go to law school to get a "good job," I'll pay off the debt, no biggie.

Now that I'm a little older and have some (admittedly probably still pretty vague) sense of what the legal employment landscape is like, I think it's insane for someone so young to tie himself (and another person!) to 200K debt without a real familiarity with what legal employment is like. Especially when that person has a 4.0 and is just too lazy to retake some dumb standardized test that could quite literally change his life for the better. "Oh, I'll do BIG LAW a couple years and try to lateral into BIG SPORTS AGENCY then." Craziness.

Good luck man. I really do sincerely hope this works out and you're able to get that sports agent job of your dreams.

I meant "big boy" in the sense that my decisions impact my life, not jbagelboy. I appreciate your post and understand that the field of sports law isn't really an option, which is why I said three times that I plan to go BigLaw and then try to lateral. Never said I was going to or that it was likely. It's just what I would like to happen. I am fine doing BigLaw, prosecution, whatever. I'm also not too lazy to retake as I have already done so. I just know when I have reached my ceiling and when I haven't. I believe that I have maxed out. If I'm wrong, hey, that's fine. However, I can probably more accurately assess my own understanding of the LSAT better than you can. Thanks for your well wishes and once again I appreciate your concern and advice.

I edited out your numbers per your request, feel free to do so with your own quote.

People on here are entitled to the full picture. I know well grounded posters like MG and ymmv would be giving different advice if you were transparent. I understand you want to limit the scope of the inquiry to a false dilemma, but we shouldn't be here to indulge your poor decision-making. Your parents and friends can do that. We are anonymous so that we can be critical; I'm not "into you," I don't know who you are or ultimately care about your choices, but you would be surprised by how many times people who are initially immune to good advice and act dismissive eventually come around and are forever thankful to us for doing so.

The situation didn't really "change" with the Michigan admit. The decision remains whether you will be careless with your finances and opportunities, or take the mature route and invest your full potential into your future - a lesson in delayed gratification.

Appreciate you doing so. I understand that, but they can PM me if they really wanted to full picture. I have disclosed my numbers to many through PM. My friends, etc. are all for UPenn (for whatever that is worth). Exactly. By ultimately not caring about my choices, it allows people to give flippant, blanket responses. Having said that, I have got a ton of good advice on TLS.

And yet ironically he still has his own numbers quoted in his post.
OP: do yourself and your family maybe the biggest favor of your young life and listen to jbagelboy on this one.

Sorry, newbie to TLS and still don't how this all really works. Edited. As I stated, sitting out is not an option for a variety of reasons beyond just the LSAT. I would appreciate any advice on choosing between the two, pros and cons of both, etc. Thanks to all you guys for helping me out, even if I am a little stubborn haha.

[TooOld4This]

Stop feeding OP bland answers as if this is a legitimate choice.

We already answered you in a previous thread. You have to retake the LSAT, take time off and reapply, both for you, your fiance, and your future family. Either choice for next year is reckless and unnecessary given your massive room for improvement (Just FYI everyone, OP would be k-jd).

Also just because you edited out the posts in your old thread doesn't mean we can't see them :/

Circumstances have changed with Michigan admit. Thank you for your advice, but I am not going to retake, take time off, or reapply. I'm a big boy and if things don't work out that will be on me. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't post my numbers. Appears you have taken a liking to me and I am flattered/creeped out. I only did that because someone linked my LSN profile. Didn't know you could still see.

"Big boys" don't throw $180,000 out the window because they are too lazy or petulant to take a year off and retake the one test that has the biggest impact on their legal career.

Does your $180k include interest that will be accruing during law school?
Does your $180k include origination and other fees associated with your loans?
Does your $180k include the possibility of having to have two households during at least one summer?
Do your career family plans have room for over $2000 per month in non-dischargable debt per month for a decade (think back to 4th grade -- the time since then until now is how long it will be before you pay off your loans on a standard 10 year period. Many people with $180k end up stretching out payments even further.)


You do realize that in sitting out for one year, you could wind up saving yourself $240,000, right?

[coreaves23]

Stop feeding OP bland answers as if this is a legitimate choice.

We already answered you in a previous thread. You have to retake the LSAT, take time off and reapply, both for you, your fiance, and your future family. Either choice for next year is reckless and unnecessary given your massive room for improvement (Just FYI everyone, OP would be k-jd).

Also just because you edited out the posts in your old thread doesn't mean we can't see them :/

Circumstances have changed with Michigan admit. Thank you for your advice, but I am not going to retake, take time off, or reapply. I'm a big boy and if things don't work out that will be on me. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't post my numbers. Appears you have taken a liking to me and I am flattered/creeped out. I only did that because someone linked my LSN profile. Didn't know you could still see.

"Big boys" don't throw $180,000 out the window because they are too lazy or petulant to take a year off and retake the one test that has the biggest impact on their legal career.

Does your $180k include interest that will be accruing during law school?
Does your $180k include origination and other fees associated with your loans?
Does your $180k include the possibility of having to have two households during at least one summer?
Do your career family plans have room for over $2000 per month in non-dischargable debt per month for a decade (think back to 4th grade -- the time since then until now is how long it will be before you pay off your loans on a standard 10 year period. Many people with $180k end up stretching out payments even further.)


You do realize that in sitting out for one year, you could wind up saving yourself $240,000, right?

Yep, I do.

[BigZuck]

Stop feeding OP bland answers as if this is a legitimate choice.

We already answered you in a previous thread. You have to retake the LSAT, take time off and reapply, both for you, your fiance, and your future family. Either choice for next year is reckless and unnecessary given your massive room for improvement (Just FYI everyone, OP would be k-jd).

Also just because you edited out the posts in your old thread doesn't mean we can't see them :/

Circumstances have changed with Michigan admit. Thank you for your advice, but I am not going to retake, take time off, or reapply. I'm a big boy and if things don't work out that will be on me. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't post my numbers. Appears you have taken a liking to me and I am flattered/creeped out. I only did that because someone linked my LSN profile. Didn't know you could still see.

"Big boys" don't throw $180,000 out the window because they are too lazy or petulant to take a year off and retake the one test that has the biggest impact on their legal career.

Does your $180k include interest that will be accruing during law school?
Does your $180k include origination and other fees associated with your loans?
Does your $180k include the possibility of having to have two households during at least one summer?
Do your career family plans have room for over $2000 per month in non-dischargable debt per month for a decade (think back to 4th grade -- the time since then until now is how long it will be before you pay off your loans on a standard 10 year period. Many people with $180k end up stretching out payments even further.)


You do realize that in sitting out for one year, you could wind up saving yourself $240,000, right?

Yep, I do.

I think aquiring a little responsibility/maturity somehow would be nice but hopefully that will will happen for you naturally. And soon.

If you want to be a slave to debt in the Midwest, go to Michigan. If you want to be a slave to debt on the east coast, go to Penn. Neither are going to be better for unicorn jobs like academia or becoming a sports agent. If you still can't decide, flip a coin. It's all about your preferences, neither school will be appreciably better than the other.

[TooOld4This]

Honestly, these posts make me sad. I have seen the bitterness creep in so quickly to junior associates when they start getting hit with the full realization of what they have done by taking on so much debt. The life raft most of them cling to is that they just didn't know better. People who make these threads have deprived themselves of even that.

OP, it really just doesn't matter. EIther you are so rich and connected, you don't need to worry, or your degree won't be what limits your options, your debt will.

[coreaves23]

Stop feeding OP bland answers as if this is a legitimate choice.

We already answered you in a previous thread. You have to retake the LSAT, take time off and reapply, both for you, your fiance, and your future family. Either choice for next year is reckless and unnecessary given your massive room for improvement (Just FYI everyone, OP would be k-jd).

Also just because you edited out the posts in your old thread doesn't mean we can't see them :/

Circumstances have changed with Michigan admit. Thank you for your advice, but I am not going to retake, take time off, or reapply. I'm a big boy and if things don't work out that will be on me. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't post my numbers. Appears you have taken a liking to me and I am flattered/creeped out. I only did that because someone linked my LSN profile. Didn't know you could still see.

"Big boys" don't throw $180,000 out the window because they are too lazy or petulant to take a year off and retake the one test that has the biggest impact on their legal career.

Does your $180k include interest that will be accruing during law school?
Does your $180k include origination and other fees associated with your loans?
Does your $180k include the possibility of having to have two households during at least one summer?
Do your career family plans have room for over $2000 per month in non-dischargable debt per month for a decade (think back to 4th grade -- the time since then until now is how long it will be before you pay off your loans on a standard 10 year period. Many people with $180k end up stretching out payments even further.)


You do realize that in sitting out for one year, you could wind up saving yourself $240,000, right?

Yep, I do.[/quote]

I think aquiring a little responsibility/maturity somehow would be nice but hopefully that will will happen for you naturally. And soon.

If you want to be a slave to debt in the Midwest, go to Michigan. If you want to be a slave to debt on the east coast, go to Penn. Neither are going to be better for unicorn jobs like academia or becoming a sports agent. If you still can't decide, flip a coin. It's all about your preferences, neither school will be appreciably better than the other.[/quote]

His question is one that I have answered in this thread and others, so no reason to once again go into how I could possibly score 175 and go anywhere. I know this, but I also have said that I am going this cycle. I do not want academia (never said that). I appreciate your last sentence -- that's all I've wanted is just actual opinions on the decision I have to make. Not the LSAT, etc.

Honestly, these posts make me sad. I have seen the bitterness creep in so quickly to junior associates when they start getting hit with the full realization of what they have done by taking on so much debt. The life raft most of them cling to is that they just didn't know better. People who make these threads have deprived themselves of even that.

Thank you. Stuff like that is what I want to hear. That's constructive and helpful -- telling me to retake, etc. just isn't. You think by going to either school I am placing myself into the situation you just described? Definitely not rich and only have connections in Midwest. I understand the debt will be substantial and I understand that I am naive about how long it will take to pay it back.

[TooOld4This]

Honestly, these posts make me sad. I have seen the bitterness creep in so quickly to junior associates when they start getting hit with the full realization of what they have done by taking on so much debt. The life raft most of them cling to is that they just didn't know better. People who make these threads have deprived themselves of even that.

Thank you. Stuff like that is what I want to hear. That's constructive and helpful -- telling me to retake, etc. just isn't. You think by going to either school I am placing myself into the situation you just described?

Yes. You are married. You are talking about wanting to raise a family. $180k in debt is one hell of an albatross. It will push you into jobs you might not really want to take. It will make those jobs even more miserable because you actually have to be afraid of a partner walking in one day and saying you have 3 months. It will make the job more unbearable because you know that you can't rage quit. (One of the easiest ways to survive BigLaw is to tell yourself if it doesn't get better in X (hours/days/weeks) you will just quit.) Your 1L year will become that much more stressful when you realize that even at Penn and UMich, if you don't beat median by a decent margin, you will likely not have your pick of jobs and might be scrapping for a job at all. (Note, that the BigLaw + Clerkship percentage does NOT equal the class rank of people who get those jobs -- below median people snag them and above median can get locked out).

Debt will color everything you do until it is paid off. And neither UMich or Penn can change that.

[Mullens]

Have you actually calculated the full COA and how long it will take you to pay back on various repayment structures? Have you gone over this information with your fiance(e) and is (s)he fully aware and onboard with your plan? If not, I don't even know how you are considering either of these schools for so close to sticker when the alternative has the potential to be so fruitful.

[coreaves23]

Honestly, these posts make me sad. I have seen the bitterness creep in so quickly to junior associates when they start getting hit with the full realization of what they have done by taking on so much debt. The life raft most of them cling to is that they just didn't know better. People who make these threads have deprived themselves of even that.

Thank you. Stuff like that is what I want to hear. That's constructive and helpful -- telling me to retake, etc. just isn't. You think by going to either school I am placing myself into the situation you just described?

Yes. You are married. You are talking about wanting to raise a family. $180k in debt is one hell of an albatross. It will push you into jobs you might not really want to take. It will make those jobs even more miserable because you actually have to be afraid of a partner walking in one day and saying you have 3 months. It will make the job more unbearable because you know that you can't rage quit. (One of the easiest ways to survive BigLaw is to tell yourself if it doesn't get better in X (hours/days/weeks) you will just quit.) Your 1L year will become that much more stressful when you realize that even at Penn and UMich, if you don't beat median by a decent margin, you will likely not have your pick of jobs and might be scrapping for a job at all. (Note, that the BigLaw + Clerkship percentage does NOT equal the class rank of people who get those jobs -- below median people snag them and above median can get locked out).

Debt will color everything you do until it is paid off. And neither UMich or Penn can change that.

Yeah, that does not sound good at all. Is all BigLaw like that? Also, how accurate is this post here (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=230636). Based on this, it looks like Penn is a no-brainer. What do you think?

[coreaves23]

Have you actually calculated the full COA and how long it will take you to pay back on various repayment structures? Have you gone over this information with your fiance(e) and is (s)he fully aware and onboard with your plan? If not, I don't even know how you are considering either of these schools for so close to sticker when the alternative has the potential to be so fruitful.

Yeah, we have talked about it in-depth. I understand it is a huge financial undertaking. We are actually planning our honeymoon now (trying to find plane tickets!!!), but will be calculating the full COA after that. The 180K was my rough estimate given the scholarship and her ability to cover COL.

[TooOld4This]

Yeah, that does not sound good at all. Is all BigLaw like that? Also, how accurate is this post here (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=230636). Based on this, it looks like Penn is a no-brainer. What do you think?

Be absolutely certain about your total cost of attendance.

Penn will probably make it marginally easier for you put on the shackles of BigLaw.

In BigLaw, your job comes first. Always. At all times. Your salary buys 24/7/365 access to your time. The firm may not always use it. But it will always work off the assumption that it can exercise its option on it. And it will let you know that. Whether or not you actually get dragged in at odd hours or during weekends or have to cancel plans, you will know it is a possibility. You will check your blackberry obsessively and your heart will beat a little faster each time you look. You will sigh with relief when nothing is amiss. And after a couple of months (or a year), you probably won't even realize you do it. But your spouse will. And non-lawyers around you will.

You either thrive in that environment or you don't. Very few people thrive. If you aren't one that thrives, knowing you are stuck with this life for the foreseeable future makes the experience that much more difficult get through.

[Mullens]

You want to commit to a $200,000+ financial decision and you haven't done any research on the culture of biglaw!? You REALLY need to step back from this and do a substantial amount of research, number-crunching, and soul-searching with your fiance(e) before making such an important decision. I wasn't initially willing to jump on the "you need to grow up, OP" bandwagon but my god do you need to realize how this decision will impact the rest of your life.

[NYSprague]

It isn't just a $200,000 decision like any other because the debt is non-dischargeable. If you bought a house and lost your job, you can walk away (not that it wouldn't be painful to do so.)
This debt can be with you for 20 years, at which point you can discharge the balance and owe taxes on that amount.

There is no way to get rid of this debt short of being permanently disabled in a profound way. Even if you die, the discharged debt is taxable to whatever estate you might leave your family.

To put yourself in that situation because you are too stubborn to study hard and take another exam is just...I don't know...unthinkable to me.

[coreaves23]

Yeah, that does not sound good at all. Is all BigLaw like that? Also, how accurate is this post here (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=230636). Based on this, it looks like Penn is a no-brainer. What do you think?

Be absolutely certain about your total cost of attendance.

Penn will probably make it marginally easier for you put on the shackles of BigLaw.

In BigLaw, your job comes first. Always. At all times. Your salary buys 24/7/365 access to your time. The firm may not always use it. But it will always work off the assumption that it can exercise its option on it. And it will let you know that. Whether or not you actually get dragged in at odd hours or during weekends or have to cancel plans, you will know it is a possibility. You will check your blackberry obsessively and your heart will beat a little faster each time you look. You will sigh with relief when nothing is amiss. And after a couple of months (or a year), you probably won't even realize you do it. But your spouse will. And non-lawyers around you will.

You either thrive in that environment or you don't. Very few people thrive. If you aren't one that thrives, knowing you are stuck with this life for the foreseeable future makes the experience that much more difficult get through.

I plan on getting an exact number when I sit down with financial aid during my visit. That's what I heard it is like. Family friend went to T14, did BigLaw. When I asked him one word to describe it -- "dehumanizing."

You want to commit to a $200,000+ financial decision and you haven't done any research on the culture of biglaw!? You REALLY need to step back from this and do a substantial amount of research, number-crunching, and soul-searching with your fiance(e) before making such an important decision. I wasn't initially willing to jump on the "you need to grow up, OP" bandwagon but my god do you need to realize how this decision will impact the rest of your life.

Wow, what a conclusion you jumped to there. Nope, just asked if that was what ALL BigLaw is like. I know I don't know everything, so I ask others. Wanted to learn more about it does not mean I "haven't done any research on the culture of big law." Once again (believe I told you this in a past thread), I've talked plenty with my fiancé and she's on board. As stated close to ten times now in the thread, I do realize how this decision will impact the rest of my life.

It isn't just a $200,000 decision like any other because the debt is non-dischargeable. If you bought a house and lost your job, you can walk away (not that it wouldn't be painful to do so.)
This debt can be with you for 20 years, at which point you can discharge the balance and owe taxes on that amount.

There is no way to get rid of this debt short of being permanently disabled in a profound way. Even if you die, the discharged debt is taxable to whatever estate you might leave your family.

I appreciate your concern and will keep that in mind.

[Learn_Live_Hope]

What if OP feels like he maximized his study time, and cannot improve on the LSAT anymore?

[NYSprague]

What if OP feels like he maximized his study time, and cannot improve on the LSAT anymore?

He already said he understand that if he improves he could save $240,000. He has said it doesn't fit into his plans. If he has two more takes, he should use them.

But, I mean, even if it all works out, even if all his dreams come true and he gets a market paying job somewhere, he will have years of debt to repay, instead of saving and investing that money. It is just a waste.

[Learn_Live_Hope]

...

[tskela]

Somewhat tangential question: if OP were able to raise his LSAT score, that would mean some schools would offer him a lot of money to attend which would drastically reduce debt. But I think it's safe to say that the schools offering that money would probably be lower in the T-14. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have the best chance at biglaw if you go to a much higher ranked school? Like no lower than CCN? And HYSCCN is probably not going to offer OP a substantial amount of money even if he does have a 4.0 and even if he did increase his LSAT score. I'm super new so correct me if I'm wrong, but if OP had a high GPA and high LSAT, and got accepted by, say, Harvard, he should probably go to Harvard even if it means $200,000 debt. So whether OP retakes or not, it seems like debt will still be inevitable.

[NoChainz]

What if OP feels like he maximized his study time, and cannot improve on the LSAT anymore?

He already said he understand that if he improves he could save $240,000. He has said it doesn't fit into his plans. If he has two more takes, he should use them.

But, I mean, even if it all works out, even if all his dreams come true and he gets a market paying job somewhere, he will have years of debt to repay, instead of saving and investing that money. It is just a waste.

He can't improve. I know OP's situation. He feels like he can't improve thus the reason why I asked that.

This is awful advice. If he has retakes left he should use them. The debt is no joke and can be life-changing. I see it on the faces of the attorneys I work with on a daily basis. The only part of law school that matters are the exams. If you can't improve on the LSAT which is extremely learn-able how will you fare on law school exams that are much more important??

[Ramius]

Somewhat tangential question: if OP were able to raise his LSAT score, that would mean some schools would offer him a lot of money to attend which would drastically reduce debt. But I think it's safe to say that the schools offering that money would probably be lower in the T-14. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have the best chance at biglaw if you go to a much higher ranked school? Like no lower than CCN? And HYSCCN is probably not going to offer OP a substantial amount of money even if he does have a 4.0 and even if he did increase his LSAT score. I'm super new so correct me if I'm wrong, but if OP had a high GPA and high LSAT, and got accepted by, say, Harvard, he should probably go to Harvard even if it means $200,000 debt. So whether OP retakes or not, it seems like debt will still be inevitable.

This isn't really true, because once you get to HYS, there is no such thing as merit aid. At that point, it has entirely to do with need, which the OP would likely get a decent amount given he has a family to help support and non-rich parents.

No way to know for sure, since retaking is so definitively off the table apparently.

[Learn_Live_Hope]

...

[Crowing]

Somewhat tangential question: if OP were able to raise his LSAT score, that would mean some schools would offer him a lot of money to attend which would drastically reduce debt. But I think it's safe to say that the schools offering that money would probably be lower in the T-14. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have the best chance at biglaw if you go to a much higher ranked school? Like no lower than CCN? And HYSCCN is probably not going to offer OP a substantial amount of money even if he does have a 4.0 and even if he did increase his LSAT score. I'm super new so correct me if I'm wrong, but if OP had a high GPA and high LSAT, and got accepted by, say, Harvard, he should probably go to Harvard even if it means $200,000 debt. So whether OP retakes or not, it seems like debt will still be inevitable.

? There is little difference between CCN and lower T14 schools. There certainly is not enough difference to justify taking on any more than a little bit extra cost. As far as I know, every T14 offers at least up to 150k.

Even if OP were to go to CCN, with a high enough LSAT, he could get a Hamilton at CLS (180k or so I believe) or a Rubenstein at Chicago (which is at least 200k currently).

[ymmv]

Somewhat tangential question: if OP were able to raise his LSAT score, that would mean some schools would offer him a lot of money to attend which would drastically reduce debt. But I think it's safe to say that the schools offering that money would probably be lower in the T-14. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have the best chance at biglaw if you go to a much higher ranked school? Like no lower than CCN? And HYSCCN is probably not going to offer OP a substantial amount of money even if he does have a 4.0 and even if he did increase his LSAT score. I'm super new so correct me if I'm wrong, but if OP had a high GPA and high LSAT, and got accepted by, say, Harvard, he should probably go to Harvard even if it means $200,000 debt. So whether OP retakes or not, it seems like debt will still be inevitable.

That is not remotely the case. Anyone who gets accepted to Harvard can leverage full rides to Cornell, NU, or their regional flagship of choice. Hell, they could probably negotiate a hefty sum out of Chicago, in OP's case.
For 99% of people the full ride lower T14 will be the better option over Harvard. And that 1% are very literally the 1%, as in your father is Bill Gates and money is utterly meaningless to you.