midlaw in the great plains! which school? Forum

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

It's just like STL: the city and anything worthwhile is in Missouri, and the shitty flood plains region for wanna b's and lingerers is across the border

and lol UMKC Law...

I'd be more upset by this if the Illinois side of St. Louis wasn't East St. Louis.

Mhm feel free to dissociate with ESTL to maintain your holier-than-thou worldview

E StL:


Where I live:


Dick.


OP, Midwest markets are a lot more insular than you probably think. Everyone I know is naturally suspicious of people from out of the area. Even people from other Midwestern states are looked at funny.

I don't know about law hiring specifically, but I assume most firms are weary of flight risks. You'd have to work extra hard to convince them of your desire to stay. I can't imagine being out of state and at the local TTT.

You can tell that you misunderstand the OPs position. He is not talking about attending a "third teir toilet." According to everyone he will interview with, who oh by the way are all alums of the school, he will be attending the best school around. No one from Harvard goes for small law in Kansas. Prestige is an element of community.

Also blah Randy's tie spiel as it pertains to local schools, send.

[Ricky-Bobby]

OP, Midwest markets are a lot more insular than you probably think. Everyone I know is naturally suspicious of people from out of the area. Even people from other Midwestern states are looked at funny.

I don't know about law hiring specifically, but I assume most firms are weary of flight risks. You'd have to work extra hard to convince them of your desire to stay. I can't imagine being out of state and at the local TTT.

You can tell that you misunderstand the OPs position. He is not talking about attending a "third teir toilet." According to everyone he will interview with, who oh by the way are all alums of the school, he will be attending the best school around. No one from Harvard goes for small law in Kansas. Prestige is an element of community.

Also blah Randy's tie spiel as it pertains to local schools, send.

Did you not read the first part of my post? This guy isn't from Kansas City. He isn't even from the same area of the country. That matters. Simply going to Iowa or UIUC or wherever is not going to convince someone in KC to hire him. Coming from a coast to a Midwest school and then searching for a job in KC reeks of "I struck out trying to go back to my home market, can I just work here?"

[NYSprague]

How does OP even know he will like living some random place in the Midwest he has never visited? Or lived? That is the issue behind ties. Going to school someplace out of a random list of schools seems like a very bad idea.

[timbs4339]

Just to be clear, 50-150 person firms are midlaw or satellite office biglaw in NYC. In the places you are talking about they are regional biglaw firms.

Also we need a new term for the firms that do "like more money than I can get with a BA but less than biglaw but still corporatey type stuff while wearing a nice suit and working in a tall building" law.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

OP, Midwest markets are a lot more insular than you probably think. Everyone I know is naturally suspicious of people from out of the area. Even people from other Midwestern states are looked at funny.

I don't know about law hiring specifically, but I assume most firms are weary of flight risks. You'd have to work extra hard to convince them of your desire to stay. I can't imagine being out of state and at the local TTT.

You can tell that you misunderstand the OPs position. He is not talking about attending a "third teir toilet." According to everyone he will interview with, who oh by the way are all alums of the school, he will be attending the best school around. No one from Harvard goes for small law in Kansas. Prestige is an element of community.

Also blah Randy's tie spiel as it pertains to local schools, send.

Did you not read the first part of my post? This guy isn't from Kansas City. He isn't even from the same area of the country. That matters. Simply going to Iowa or UIUC or wherever is not going to convince someone in KC to hire him. Coming from a coast to a Midwest school and then searching for a job in KC reeks of "I struck out trying to go back to my home market, can I just work here?"

Yeah I read it I just disagree with you. What law school do/did you go to? I found ties to be a non issue because I went to the local school. Why do you say it reeks of failure somewhere else? If he had wanted to go to school and work on the coast, he would have done so.

Do you think a KU alum interviewing OP, with his KU degree, will think OP attended KU to work someplace other than Kansas? Please share your experience.

[Fiero85]

I think we should keep in mind that, even if it's granted that just going to KU somehow counts as enough of "ties" to the area to put you on an even playing field with locals (which I don't agree with btw), geting any legal job from KU isn't easy:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/kansas/2013/

OP: you have good enough stats, especially GPA, where you should go to a better school than KU or Mizzou for free or little cost. If you have any sense you'll study hard, retake the LSAT, and get better offers from WUSTL, ND, Northwestern, etc.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I think we should keep in mind that, even if it's granted that just going to KU somehow counts as enough of "ties" to the area to put you on an even playing field with locals (which I don't agree with btw), geting any legal job from KU isn't easy:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/kansas/2013/

OP: you have good enough stats, especially GPA, where you should go to a better school than KU or Mizzou for free or little cost. If you have any sense you'll study hard, retake the LSAT, and get better offers from WUSTL, ND, Northwestern, etc.

I doubt ND at 120k is a better deal than KU at 60k, and I know only a fool would go to ND to work in Kansas sans prior ties to Kansas.

Also I don't mean to suggest that locals can not have an advantage, not at all, but ties is drastically misunderstood on TLS. Advice is go to WUSTL? WUSTL does not create much of a tie because WUSTL students generally do not want to work in Missouri. Employers know this.

Paying tuition at WUSTL is not the way here... Free at WUSTL a great deal but OP is going to have to try like hell to convince people he wants to work in the Midwest.

[kentuckybbnlaw]

Ok well if these markets ive pointed out are so hard to break into, what secondary markets do you suggest? I have no interest in nyc/la/sf/chi. I would like to be in a smaller big city. I know I will make less money but I would like to go somewhere where my dollar will stretch a lot farther.

[Fiero85]

I agree for the goal of KC employment alone, ND is not worth 60k more than KU. OP can do better than that difference too.

But I'm coming from the perspective of looking for better fall backs if this whole randomly picking KC thing doesn't work out. Which is a material risk. WUSTL has way better general prospects than KU. It would take a few months of effort for OP to raise his LSAt enough to get a fully at WUSTL. I can't see how that isn't better than settling for KU with current stats.

And as far as KU vs WUSTL for KC goes, WUSTL is the best school in KC's state/area, and KU is tied for disssstant second with Mizzou, Iowa, Oklahoma, SLU, UMKC, whatever crap Kansas schools remaining blah blah. Prestige, as much as it is hilariously overused in the legal profession, is more important than a small difference in location. WUSTL kicks KU's ass in that respect.

So anything KU can do for this OP (namely: giving a plusible signal to employers that yes, they are crazy enough to move across the country to gun for KC and stay put), WUSTL can do, plus it'll have some back up regions to grind for if KC is a bust. If KC is a bust and you're a KU student: good luck to you.

[Fiero85]

Ok well if these markets ive pointed out are so hard to break into, what secondary markets do you suggest? I have no interest in nyc/la/sf/chi. I would like to be in a smaller big city. I know I will make less money but I would like to go somewhere where my dollar will stretch a lot farther.

OP what specifically are your ties to Kentucky/Cali?

Idk what to tell you really because I doubt Louisville or Lexington have much of a private legal industry. If I'm wrong, correct me. Vandy, (retake to make it cheap enough!), is the only school worth much in that area, and from there you could try to get Nashville or another small southern city. I think Kentucky to TN is more convincing of a life plan to employers than Kentucky to KC. And again, it's important to have back up plans. Vandy (cheap enough) would not be as likely to leave you entirely screwed, all else equal, compared to KU or Kentucky or UT in Knoxville.

You might be better served going to UCLA or USC and aiming for a western city other than LA/SF. Idk. I'm not convinced you're gonna retake like you should (no offense - there's just so many dense people on here who neglect the value of it) so I'll leave that alone for now.

[rad lulz]

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[Ricky-Bobby]

Yeah I read it I just disagree with you. What law school do/did you go to? I found ties to be a non issue because I went to the local school. Why do you say it reeks of failure somewhere else? If he had wanted to go to school and work on the coast, he would have done so.

Do you think a KU alum interviewing OP, with his KU degree, will think OP attended KU to work someplace other than Kansas? Please share your experience.

Oh I see. This is the part of the conversation where we pit your anecdata against my anecdata. I am not in law school yet, so feel free to discount everything I'm about to say. I know that's your angle anyway.

First of all, I never explicitly made this discussion about KU specifically. Other than your inference from "local TTT," KU was never mentioned. I did, in fact, mention other Midwest schools. You narrowed it down, but that's ok. My point still stands.

Most employers know that 0Ls are stupid and go to the highest-ranked shithole they get into, no matter where that is. It's not impossible to express enough interest to get past the tie issue, but it is unnecessarily harder. I have worked at a small and a mid-size firm in the Midwest. The partners wouldn't hire people without significant ties. You pretty much had to grow up in the area to be considered if there were other qualified candidates applying. That's my experience. The fact that so many other TLSers tell the same tale seems to suggest my anecdata is sound.

I'm happy you were able to establish ties and get a job by going to the local school. Great for you. Just don't advise this guy to pin his whole future on a 60% chance of a small law job in KC after graduating from KU.

[McAvoy]

Ok well if these markets ive pointed out are so hard to break into, what secondary markets do you suggest? I have no interest in nyc/la/sf/chi. I would like to be in a smaller big city. I know I will make less money but I would like to go somewhere where my dollar will stretch a lot farther.

How about this option: retake for $$ at Vandy. You'll won't be a Tennessee outsider as much with your Kentucky roots, and Vandy should have some street cred in Kentucky (and in the plains). This way you'll have at least two base regions from which you can start your wider job search -- going somewhere like Kansas gives you 0 base regions, as you have no ties there and the degree doesn't travel.

ETA: Scooped.

[should-i-do-it]

I wouldn't be so sure that OP gets full rides to KU/OU. I applied a couple years back with similar stats and didn't get much.

[The Dark Shepard]

Guess I have a question now. I've moved around a lot my entire life, so I don't have long-term "ties" anywhere in terms of living(other than "the Midwest" as a region. Lived Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Missouri in my life). Will that make me a supposed "flight risk" everywhere?

Basically, I'm going to UMN on big $ and want to end up in Minnesota. I also have a large amount of extended family there. Should I be worried at this point? I believe I should be fine, but this topic is making me worry.

[Fiero85]

Guess I have a question now. I've moved around a lot my entire life, so I don't have long-term "ties" anywhere in terms of living(other than "the Midwest" as a region. Lived Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Missouri in my life). Will that make me a supposed "flight risk" everywhere?

Basically, I'm going to UMN on big $ and want to end up in Minnesota. I also have a large amount of extended family there. Should I be worried at this point? I believe I should be fine, but this topic is making me worry.

Eh, I think there's a couple key differences in your situation. For one thing, UMN is a hell of a lot better school for Minnesota than KU or UIUC are for Kansas City. UMN is the main school of the city and sate. Secondly, even if you have moved around a lot, you have at least lived some in your target city/state area, and have stayed in the Midwest in general. The OP of this thread was targeting a city in an entirely new region to them, which is different.

Also not to be ignored, you have a $ offer in hand and aren't taking on huge debt. This OP has not gotten to that point in the process yet (OP, I repeat, freaking retake if you're reading this - you'll kill it in scholarships if you do). So take heart, your plan is not worrisome at face value like this one.

[DELG]

Ok well if these markets ive pointed out are so hard to break into, what secondary markets do you suggest? I have no interest in nyc/la/sf/chi. I would like to be in a smaller big city. I know I will make less money but I would like to go somewhere where my dollar will stretch a lot farther.

The secondary market where you're from

Yeah I feel like the importance of ties, and attending the local favorite, is being undervalued ITT. If you try to shop yourself to a bunch of tertiary markets, you're gonna have a bad time.

[star fox]

I wouldn't be so sure that OP gets full rides to KU/OU. I applied a couple years back with similar stats and didn't get much.

Less applicants now. More money being given out.

[McAvoy]

Guess I have a question now. I've moved around a lot my entire life, so I don't have long-term "ties" anywhere in terms of living(other than "the Midwest" as a region. Lived Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Missouri in my life). Will that make me a supposed "flight risk" everywhere?

Basically, I'm going to UMN on big $ and want to end up in Minnesota. I also have a large amount of extended family there. Should I be worried at this point? I believe I should be fine, but this topic is making me worry.

Minnesota and Wisconsin are not very insular. Going to school in Minnesota or Wisconsin is more than enough to establish ties in said states. They're generally good people who understand that you aren't always born in or forced into a place that's best for you

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I am not in law school yet.

So let me get this strait, you are an 0L logging on to a website and emphatically posting advice for another 0L? Yeah that's definitely the kinda advice the OP wanted. Look bro, the only difference between you and the OP is your overconfidence. Stop posting in advice threads.

Oh I see. This is the part of the conversation where we pit your anecdata against my anecdote.

We just established that you do not have an anecdote, you're an 0L. A few convo's with old dudes at a firm where you were a gofer is not helpful. I on the other hand have an anecdote, went to a regional school without ties to the state and landed a job. Ties never came up, because it seemed like every single person who interviewed me was an alum of my law school. This would likely be the case if OP went to OU or KU.

First of all, I never explicitly made this discussion about KU specifically. Other than your inference from "local TTT," KU was never mentioned. I did, in fact, mention other Midwest schools. You narrowed it down, but that's ok. My point still stands.

You said local TTT. However, none of the schools OP mentioned, OU, KU, Mizzou, fit that bill. For example, the state of Oklahoma has a "TTT." That would be Ok City U. So there is a prestige hierarchy in Oklahoma. OU is at the top. People there are proud of OU. So if OP moved to Oklahoma and attended OU he or she would interview with people that were ready to hear the "why OU and Oklahoma" story because many of them made the same choice. This isn't to say that being a local isn't an advantage, knowing people is super. However, I'd rather be the enterprising people person who happened to be an "outsider" than the guy from down the street who is fucking weird or just plain rude to people. Jesus I just said outsider. I swear people on TLS think so many regions in this country are just like fucking Game of Thrones.

Most employers know that 0Ls are stupid and go to the highest-ranked shithole they get into, no matter where that is.

No. The real world is nothing like TLS. People on TLS tend to be prestige seeking, moreso than the general applicant pool by a mile. I know dozens of students who attended law school at OU. I attended law school at CU. The vast majority of people did not attend these schools because of rankings, unless the decision was down to two schools in the desired area, like CU/DU or OU/Tulsa. You are having a massive forest for the trees problem dude. I recommend less TLS.

The fact that so many other TLSers tell the same tale seems to suggest my anecdata is sound.

No. Though I don't post with the insane frequency of many on here, I have been on this site for years. The first time I looked at TLS was in 2008. I disagree with you here, too. What I have found is tons of anecdotes from around the country posted by traditional (read, T14) TLS posters. They seem to have trouble with ties when interviewing across the country. This makes total sense. They go to fill in the blank national school on the east coast, and of course the employer in chicago is concerned. Not only is this applicant way more ambitious than the local school bro, but this applicant has options all over the country. Local bro does not.

If you have discovered anything more than this, please share.

I'm happy you were able to establish ties and get a job by going to the local school. Great for you. Just don't advise this guy to pin his whole future on a 60% chance of a small law job in KC after graduating from KU.

Thanks. And to the second part, I wasn't doing that. I was just logging on and posting from experience, as someone who is, ya know, a lawyer, and who happens to be from this area of the country. Sorry my advice didn't jive with your 0L worldview. By all means, if its your cup of tea, convince yourself to attend the "best" school you get into, or whatever your thing may be. But please don't post in the advice forums.