UT at sticker? Forum

[Mal Reynolds]

Exactly. Ops hands aren't tied to attending. I think UT is a great school but your advice is ridiculous at that price. I personally wouldn't attend a t14 at that price and it's a reasonable question whether some t14s are worth that price in general.

[emkay625]

Never said it was objectively smart. Just said sticker is not really that much better than 7K a year. If you want to debate the merits of UT at all, feel free. But that's not the question I was trying to answer.

You said you would attend UT at 180. That is a shit awful decision.

Whoaaaaa. Never said that. Just said it wasn't that much better than UT at 155K and if those were OP's only options I didn't see much of a difference. Also encouraged OP to negotiate (UT will give anyone money if they press hard enough).

At the risk of getting all Mal-y...yes you did, in your first post ITT

"If you can afford to wait around, do so. (Do you have a job lined up, can you live at home, etc.)

If not, I would attend."

Ah. My apologies. Only meant that if OP was looking at UT now or UT next cycle. If OP is seeking to broaden his or her app reach, they should definitely wait a cycle.

[WokeUpInACar]

There's a good chance they might give you money despite the WL if you tell them you can't attend at that price. If they admitted you, they need dat LSAT.

[emkay625]

There's a good chance they might give you money despite the WL if you tell them you can't attend at that price. If they admitted you, they need dat LSAT.

+1.

I got money off the WL.

[Nightingale]

To answer some of your questions:

The C&F issue probably didn't hurt me too much, but it's obviously never a good thing. By "not DUI," I meant getting a DUI would be considered worse.

I have a few other acceptances from T20 schools/waitlist from T14, but nothing that would have much negotiating power with UT.

I'm going to try negotiating with UT though. The only leverage I seem to have is a strong LSAT coupled with this being very late in the cycle. It's not a strong argument, but I could possibly get some $ out of them by saying the COA without any $ is so high that i'm considering reapplying next cycle.

A big reason why i'm hesitant to not accept the offer is the unpredictability of my stats. I'm above the 75% for LSAT, but with my GPA paired with my C&F, I may have gotten in simply from being a Texas resident or because someone happened to like my PS. I might not be so lucky next cycle. That much debt is nothing to scoff at, but UT is by far the best law school in Texas. It may not have the national reach as some of the other T14, but I want to stay in Texas anyways. It seems that if I were to be paying 180K at NYU, Duke, Virginia, or some other schools, people would tell me to accept it. I do understand those schools have undoubtedly better employment stats for big law, but UT isn't that far behind for someone looking to practice in Texas. And when you take into consideration the COL after graduation, Texas is very favorable compared to NY or the DC/Virginia area.

Another issue that i'm concerned about is related to what another poster mentioned above. How much money could I possibly get from UT next cycle? 2.5K/year? 10k living stipend with ED? That is a lot of money, but i'm not sure it's enough for me to risk not getting in. Don't get me wrong, if I honestly thought I could get 20k+/year, i'd reapply in a heartbeat, but i'm just not so sure how feasible that is.

Thank you so much for the feedback. And i'm not arguing with anyone who thinks I should wait and reapply (you have very good points), but i'm just trying to give you a better understanding of my line of reasoning, which could very well be flawed.

Thanks again.

[DoveBodyWash]

the hard part about all this, especially for splitters, is that the "best" option is often still an objectively unwise one. OP, i agree with you that UT at sticker is probably superior compared to your other options. And I also agree that you probably won't see a big increase in your scholarship if you re-apply (splitter problems, i feel u there).

But understand that UT at sticker only seems attractive because you're comparing it to other options (that are admittedly inferior given your market preferences) and because you "have to" go to law school.

It's like choosing to jump off a 10 story building instead of a 20 story building. Sure the first building is the superior option. You're more likely to survive the fall...but you can always choose not to jump at all.

You're basically betting 180k (with interest) that (1) you'll get BigLaw (2) you'll stay in BigLaw long enough to pay it off or make a material dent in the principal (3) you'll stick to whatever budget is necessary to pay it off and (4) there won't be some other life event that significantly changes the equation (e.g. spouse also has student loans...children...family emergency...etc..)The odds aren't in your favor here. There are lots of opportunities for you to fall off the horse and it's much harder to get back up when you're carrying that much debt on your back

Did you apply to SMU? You could still re-apply. Nothing is guaranteed, but at the very least you'll get another year to really decide if you wanna do this. I wouldn't worry about not being admitted again, the applicant pool is just getting weaker. If they needed you this year, they'll likely need you next year.

[BigZuck]

Re: UT vs T14

From everything I have heard, TX big law is much easier for a TX resident to get from a T14 than at UT. At UT, you're going to need good grades more likely than not. Anecdotally, I have heard of TX residents getting 1L SAs from places like Duke before they even have any grades to report. It's tough to quantify how much easier your chances would be at a T14 but if we are talking sticker debt, I would probably rather roll with 250K debt at Duke or UVA than 180K debt at UT (although, honestly, I think just not going to law school is a better option than either of those two options).

If your cost of attendance difference, was, say 70K debt at UT vs 130K debt at UVA, I would probably say take UT. Still decent big law chances and even in the likely event that you don't get big law, you probably wouldn't be devastated by debt. But when you're talking about huge debt loads regardless you have to maximize your chances at big law, IMO, so I would rather take on the extra debt to go to a T14.

[emkay625]

To answer some of your questions:

The C&F issue probably didn't hurt me too much, but it's obviously never a good thing. By "not DUI," I meant getting a DUI would be considered worse.

I have a few other acceptances from T20 schools/waitlist from T14, but nothing that would have much negotiating power with UT.

I'm going to try negotiating with UT though. The only leverage I seem to have is a strong LSAT coupled with this being very late in the cycle. It's not a strong argument, but I could possibly get some $ out of them by saying the COA without any $ is so high that i'm considering reapplying next cycle.

A big reason why i'm hesitant to not accept the offer is the unpredictability of my stats. I'm above the 75% for LSAT, but with my GPA paired with my C&F, I may have gotten in simply from being a Texas resident or because someone happened to like my PS. I might not be so lucky next cycle. That much debt is nothing to scoff at, but UT is by far the best law school in Texas. It may not have the national reach as some of the other T14, but I want to stay in Texas anyways. It seems that if I were to be paying 180K at NYU, Duke, Virginia, or some other schools, people would tell me to accept it. I do understand those schools have undoubtedly better employment stats for big law, but UT isn't that far behind for someone looking to practice in Texas. And when you take into consideration the COL after graduation, Texas is very favorable compared to NY or the DC/Virginia area.

Another issue that i'm concerned about is related to what another poster mentioned above. How much money could I possibly get from UT next cycle? 2.5K/year? 10k living stipend with ED? That is a lot of money, but i'm not sure it's enough for me to risk not getting in. Don't get me wrong, if I honestly thought I could get 20k+/year, i'd reapply in a heartbeat, but i'm just not so sure how feasible that is.

Thank you so much for the feedback. And i'm not arguing with anyone who thinks I should wait and reapply (you have very good points), but i'm just trying to give you a better understanding of my line of reasoning, which could very well be flawed.

Thanks again.

I would start by negotiating with those other options. Play hardball with them, try to get money (or more money) from them. Then negotiate with UT once you've got those better offers in hand.

[Mal Reynolds]

At my t14 I know people who never even lived in Texas with SAs at Baker Botts. It's. Big risk that that price.

[BigZuck]

At my t14 I know people who never even lived in Texas with SAs at Baker Botts. It's. Big risk that that price.

Mal is drunk

Also: damn it

[Attax]

At my t14 I know people who never even lived in Texas with SAs at Baker Botts. It's. Big risk that that price.

Mal is drunk

Also: damn it

Well that seems like a nice deal. I'm in state and even though I'm going to UT, I wouldn't pay sticker for it.

[emkay625]

Also OP: how hard have you worked those other T14 waitlists? Have you done LOCIs, etc. yet?

[Nightingale]

the hard part about all this, especially for splitters, is that the "best" option is often still an objectively unwise one. OP, i agree with you that UT at sticker is probably superior compared to your other options. And I also agree that you probably won't see a big increase in your scholarship if you re-apply (splitter problems, i feel u there).

But understand that UT at sticker only seems attractive because you're comparing it to other options (that are admittedly inferior given your market preferences) and because you "have to" go to law school.

It's like choosing to jump off a 10 story building instead of a 20 story building. Sure the first building is the superior option. You're more likely to survive the fall...but you can always choose not to jump at all.

You're basically betting 180k (with interest) that (1) you'll get BigLaw (2) you'll stay in BigLaw long enough to pay it off or make a material dent in the principal (3) you'll stick to whatever budget is necessary to pay it off and (4) there won't be some other life event that significantly changes the equation (e.g. spouse also has student loans...children...family emergency...etc..)The odds aren't in your favor here. There are lots of opportunities for you to fall off the horse and it's much harder to get back up when you're carrying that much debt on your back

Did you apply to SMU? You could still re-apply. Nothing is guaranteed, but at the very least you'll get another year to really decide if you wanna do this. I wouldn't worry about not being admitted again, the applicant pool is just getting weaker. If they needed you this year, they'll likely need you next year.

I definitely understand. It's a very big assumption to make, although I don't have a significant other or undergrad debt.
I'm not worried that I won't do well in law school, but you're right that things may happen that I have no control over.

I didn't apply to SMU. UT was my top realistic choice from the start, and if I didn't get it, I was prepared to wait and reapply.

I should've mentioned this before, but i'm lucky enough to have parents who are willing and able to give me an interest free loan for a portion of my tuition (i'm not sure how much yet). I will definitely have to pay them back, but the lack of interest is a big plus.

I'm going to try negotiating with UT while I'm making up my mind, and hopefully something good will come out of it.

[emkay625]

I definitely understand. It's a very big assumption to make, although I don't have a significant other or undergrad debt.
I'm not worried that I won't do well in law school, but you're right that things may happen that I have no control over.

I didn't apply to SMU. UT was my top realistic choice from the start, and if I didn't get it, I was prepared to wait and reapply.

I should've mentioned this before, but i'm lucky enough to have parents who are willing and able to give me an interest free loan for a portion of my tuition (i'm not sure how much yet). I will definitely have to pay them back, but the lack of interest is a big plus.

I'm going to try negotiating with UT while I'm making up my mind, and hopefully something good will come out of it.

Be careful about making this assumption. Everyone thinks they will be in the top 10% of their class. 90% of them are wrong.

[Attax]

I think the deadline for matching requests has passed. Not sure how it applies to WL admits.

[Nightingale]

Also OP: how hard have you worked those other T14 waitlists? Have you done LOCIs, etc. yet?

I have sent in LOCI's to everyone i've been wait listed by.

I have until late june to send in my letter of intent. So I have until then.

[DoveBodyWash]

I definitely understand. It's a very big assumption to make, although I don't have a significant other or undergrad debt.
I'm not worried that I won't do well in law school, but you're right that things may happen that I have no control over.

I didn't apply to SMU. UT was my top realistic choice from the start, and if I didn't get it, I was prepared to wait and reapply.

I should've mentioned this before, but i'm lucky enough to have parents who are willing and able to give me an interest free loan for a portion of my tuition (i'm not sure how much yet). I will definitely have to pay them back, but the lack of interest is a big plus.

I'm going to try negotiating with UT while I'm making up my mind, and hopefully something good will come out of it.

Be careful about making this assumption. Everyone thinks they will be in the top 10% of their class. 90% of them are wrong.

+1

I did do well my 1L year. But even I acknowledge how much luck went into it... How hard you work or how smart you are is only one of several factors that determine the outcome

[Nightingale]

I definitely understand. It's a very big assumption to make, although I don't have a significant other or undergrad debt.
I'm not worried that I won't do well in law school, but you're right that things may happen that I have no control over.

I didn't apply to SMU. UT was my top realistic choice from the start, and if I didn't get it, I was prepared to wait and reapply.

I should've mentioned this before, but i'm lucky enough to have parents who are willing and able to give me an interest free loan for a portion of my tuition (i'm not sure how much yet). I will definitely have to pay them back, but the lack of interest is a big plus.

I'm going to try negotiating with UT while I'm making up my mind, and hopefully something good will come out of it.

Be careful about making this assumption. Everyone thinks they will be in the top 10% of their class. 90% of them are wrong.

Hahah I knew someone would call me out about that. I guess I mean't that i'm very confident in myself and my work ethic, which isn't a bad thing. You are definitely right though. I believe UT sends around 30% to big law.

[Nightingale]

I guess a better question that would help me out is this: how much money (realistically considering my stats) do you think I would have to get from UT to make attending worth it?

[McAvoy]

There is probably no way they would not admit you if you applied in the fall. They will take your 170 and be happy -- do not let that factor into this decision at all.

[03152016]

You still haven't answered if you're living at home and the proportion of the COA covered by loans
So i'm going to assume that your actual COA is $197k, which LST says is in-state COA when factoring in cost inflation, origination fees, and interest

This isn't remotely defensible
You have no idea how well you'll do in law school when you're on a curve with other intelligent, motivated people with the numbers to get into a top school
Figure out what the likely salary outcome is for a student at median in his first year after graduation
Then take out up to that amount

[McAvoy]

I guess a better question that would help me out is this: how much money (realistically considering my stats) do you think I would have to get from UT to make attending worth it?

If you take a year and put 20K in the bank and get even a 10K/yr scholarship, you'd be approaching a more reasonable debt load. If you have good job prospects and can work a couple of years to cut down your COL loans, that'd be ideal.

>~100K in loans is far too risky, in my opinion. As Zuck said, I'd feel safer taking 200K in debt for a Cornell or Michigan than 140K at UT (but I would probably just not go period if those were my options). Life is hard as a splitter.

[emkay625]

I guess a better question that would help me out is this: how much money (realistically considering my stats) do you think I would have to get from UT to make attending worth it?

Personally, I took UT at just about 85K and am very happy. Hindsight is 20/20 though, and I'm in a good place re: grades and employment. At the time, I took it over several T14s at sticker or small $.

Different people will answer this question differently. It depends how debt averse you are. The deal with your parents is also excellent. I wouldn't go over 120K or so, but I am totally pulling that number out of my ass.

[Attax]

There is probably no way they would not admit you if you applied in the fall. They will take your 170 and be happy -- do not let that factor into this decision at all.

Unless this was just a test year for the LSAT pref over GPA pref. If they go back to GPA pref us splitters may not have a chance next year.

[McAvoy]

There is probably no way they would not admit you if you applied in the fall. They will take your 170 and be happy -- do not let that factor into this decision at all.

Unless this was just a test year for the LSAT pref over GPA pref. If they go back to GPA pref us splitters may not have a chance next year.

Especially with the new 10% no LSAT rule I doubt they'll start preferring reverse-splitters to splitters in the near future, but that's something to consider.