Determing Elite Job Outcomes 250+ or 100+ Forum

[OhScalia]

Princeton: Did you weigh for size? Georgetown has over 500 law students, but Vandy less than 200.

[Princetonlaw68]

Princeton: Did you weigh for size? Georgetown has over 500 law students, but Vandy has less than 200.

Weigh for size? It's a proportion...



(Not to belittle you, but in case you don't understand, that's what proportions/percentages are for. To account for size.)

[OhScalia]

Princeton: Did you weigh for size? Georgetown has over 500 law students, but Vandy has less than 200.

Weigh for size? It's a proportion...



(Not to belittle you, but in case you don't understand, that's what proportions/percentages are for. To account for size.)

I missed the proportions. They were at the very bottom of each of your comments. From what I have heard, someone at Vandy who gets a job at some small law firm in Nashville, say Bass, Berry & Sims, could get a job at most of the behemoth law firms in New York. And like most commentators have mentioned, Vandy's numbers are probably a result of its primary market being Nashville.

[Princetonlaw68]

Princeton: Did you weigh for size? Georgetown has over 500 law students, but Vandy has less than 200.

Weigh for size? It's a proportion...



(Not to belittle you, but in case you don't understand, that's what proportions/percentages are for. To account for size.)

I missed the proportions. They were at the very bottom of each of your comments. From what I have heard, someone at Vandy who gets a job at some small law firm in Nashville, say Bass, Berry & Sims, could get a job at most of the behemoth law firms in New York. And like most commentators have mentioned, Vandy's numbers are probably a result of its primary market being Nashville.

Honestly, I strongly believe that is not the case. I'm not saying I have empirical evidence or anything, but generally speaking, the Vanderbilt name (whether it be the business school, law school, or undergrad) carries an absurdly large amount of weight in TN. In TN, they call Vandy the Harvard of the south. They see it as their own little Harvard. In NYC, no1 could gaf about Vandy. The name GULC or Cornell carries far more weight than a name like Vanderbilt or UT in NY. If you accept what I'm saying as true, (and I'm not saying it definitely is, it's just my very strong opinion), then it would be extremely hard to guess where students from Vandy law who got top TN jobs would've ended up if they bid other locations. I'd guess that any outside the top third would be up shit's creek, and any that were not in the top 10% would definitely have some difficulty in NY. Vanderbilt is a regional school. I know the people who go there don't like to hear it, and many of them persistently try to argue that it has great national pull, but that really just isn't true even compared to a school like GULC - the worst actual national school.


(Unless you're saying these firms only take top 5% Vandy grads, which I doubt to be true, then I can't see how you'd be right.)

[star fox]

GULC's biggest market = Washington DC
Vandy's biggest market = Tennessee.

This thread is dumb. Most truly "elite" outcomes are at firms with less than 250 lawyers, many of those "elite" outcomes are at firms less than 100. Firm size matters only to the extent that it's a blunt proxy for "job that lets you pay off your loans." For that purpose, there's no difference between 100+ and 250+.

Yes, I had that thought as well. However, I just find it interesting that UT, which is also a southern school, still looks similar to the T14s.



(Nothing against Vandy. I believe you guys, but I was addressing what Jbagelboy was saying.)

You are aware that Dallas and Houston are large cities, correct?

[Princetonlaw68]

GULC's biggest market = Washington DC
Vandy's biggest market = Tennessee.

This thread is dumb. Most truly "elite" outcomes are at firms with less than 250 lawyers, many of those "elite" outcomes are at firms less than 100. Firm size matters only to the extent that it's a blunt proxy for "job that lets you pay off your loans." For that purpose, there's no difference between 100+ and 250+.

Yes, I had that thought as well. However, I just find it interesting that UT, which is also a southern school, still looks similar to the T14s.



(Nothing against Vandy. I believe you guys, but I was addressing what Jbagelboy was saying.)

You are aware that Dallas and Houston are large cities, correct?

Sure, but I didn't realize firm sizes there would be no smaller than those in major northern markets. You learn something new every day.

[rad lulz]

Lol @ some small Nashville firm like bass berry n sims

[Princetonlaw68]

Lol @ some small Nashville firm like bass berry n sims

I feel like I probably agree with you on this point, but could you elaborate? I know nothing about TN law, other than their extreme love for Vandy.

[rad lulz]

Lol @ some small Nashville firm like bass berry n sims

I feel like I probably agree with you on this point, but could you elaborate? I know nothing about TN law, other than their extreme love for Vandy.

Thats a big firm dude

[chuckbass]

Honestly, I strongly believe that is not the case. I'm not saying I have empirical evidence or anything, but generally speaking, the Vanderbilt name (whether it be the business school, law school, or undergrad) carries an absurdly large amount of weight in TN. In TN, they call Vandy the Harvard of the south. They see it as their own little Harvard. In NYC, no1 could gaf about Vandy. The name GULC or Cornell carries far more weight than a name like Vanderbilt or UT in NY. If you accept what I'm saying as true, (and I'm not saying it definitely is, it's just my very strong opinion), then it would be extremely hard to guess where students from Vandy law who got top TN jobs would've ended up if they bid other locations. I'd guess that any outside the top third would be up shit's creek, and any that were not in the top 10% would definitely have some difficulty in NY. Vanderbilt is a regional school. I know the people who go there don't like to hear it, and many of them persistently try to argue that it has great national pull, but that really just isn't true even compared to a school like GULC - the worst actual national school.


(Unless you're saying these firms only take top 5% Vandy grads, which I doubt to be true, then I can't see how you'd be right.)

11.7% of 2013 grads ended up in NY and 8.7% ended up in DC. You also have to account for self-selection, considering there will be several people with good grades at Vandy that only want to work in the South East. While Vandy can't hold its weight against the T14, it is still highly respected in NYC (unlike what you're saying) and is more national than you are giving it credit for.

Having seen some of your other posts, I have no idea where all of your strong assertions come from, because you are usually blatantly wrong.

[Princetonlaw68]

Honestly, I strongly believe that is not the case. I'm not saying I have empirical evidence or anything, but generally speaking, the Vanderbilt name (whether it be the business school, law school, or undergrad) carries an absurdly large amount of weight in TN. In TN, they call Vandy the Harvard of the south. They see it as their own little Harvard. In NYC, no1 could gaf about Vandy. The name GULC or Cornell carries far more weight than a name like Vanderbilt or UT in NY. If you accept what I'm saying as true, (and I'm not saying it definitely is, it's just my very strong opinion), then it would be extremely hard to guess where students from Vandy law who got top TN jobs would've ended up if they bid other locations. I'd guess that any outside the top third would be up shit's creek, and any that were not in the top 10% would definitely have some difficulty in NY. Vanderbilt is a regional school. I know the people who go there don't like to hear it, and many of them persistently try to argue that it has great national pull, but that really just isn't true even compared to a school like GULC - the worst actual national school.


(Unless you're saying these firms only take top 5% Vandy grads, which I doubt to be true, then I can't see how you'd be right.)

11.7% of 2013 grads ended up in NY and 8.7% ended up in DC. You also have to account for self-selection, considering there will be several people with good grades at Vandy that only want to work in the South East. While Vandy can't hold its weight against the T14, it is still highly respected in NYC (unlike what you're saying) and is more national than you are giving it credit for.

Having seen some of your other posts, I have no idea where all of your strong assertions come from, because you are usually blatantly wrong.

If by highly respected you mean that, all other things equal (students have equal gpa etc.), they could maybe (at best) place equally to Fordham in NY, then sure. If by highly respected you mean that someone who gets a prestigious big firm TN job from there almost certainly would get a job at one of the top NYC law firms if he/she wanted it, then you are blatantly wrong. That also was what I was arguing against.

Yes, obviously they have more national pull than other regionals, after all, they do have the best placement outside T14. Maybe I was exaggerating a little, but blatantly wrong? No.


Edit: Additionally, I think it was clear that the main point was that the amount of pull Vandy has in TN can in no way be compared to the amount they have in nyc. Because of this, the ones getting top TN firm jobs certainly are not all people who could've all gotten NYC firm jobs of the same caliber. I don't know if that was clear to you or not.

[OhScalia]

Lol @ some small Nashville firm like bass berry n sims

I feel like I probably agree with you on this point, but could you elaborate? I know nothing about TN law, other than their extreme love for Vandy.

Thats a big firm dude

Bass has 220 attorneys. While I agree with you it is not a small firm, for the purpose of 500+ firm argument (the debate is whether the cut-off should be 250+ rather than 100+) Bass does not make the cut.

[Princetonlaw68]

Just to add to my point, you're acting like it must be the case that almost everyone at Vandy just really wants TN and doesn't want to be in other locations. This self-selection phenomenon. I believe in this more when you talk about a school in NYC, or one in DC, (and also any regular regional schools, that everyone knows have no national pull, TT TTT and such) but Vanderbilt, I'd have to disagree for a gigantic portion of their graduates. As you admitted before, Vanderbilt does have (some) national pull. This attracts lots of students from all over, who do wish to one day return to their home market. Here's a breakdown of where the students were from for the class of 2015:

http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... origin.php


As you can see, it's not a bunch of TN natives who only want TN. TN is not a place that everyone is dying to live in, it's just where Vandy has pull. I know people who have gone to Vanderbilt (albeit undergrad, but it gets the point across), who go with the idea of "hey, it's a top school. So highly ranked in US News, of course I can get a job back in the north once I graduate." However, upon graduation, these students realize that this thought was wrong, and they end up in TN, Atlanta, and Florida. Not because that's what they wanted, but because that's the reality they've put themselves in. They fell into the trap of believing that Vandy has more national pull than it really does. It's not duke. It's Vanderbilt.

Vanderbilt is an extremely good school with great pull in the south, but if you think for a second it's this top school with national pull and the students are all in TN because they wanna be there, you are simply wrong. I'm sure it's the case for some, but I guarantee you there's plenty of law grads from there who'd love to go back to where they're from, but are stuck in the south. Again, just look at where the students are from.

[chuckbass]

In NYC, no1 could gaf about Vandy.

any that were not in the top 10% would definitely have some difficulty in NY.

Vanderbilt is a regional school. I know the people who go there don't like to hear it, and many of them persistently try to argue that it has great national pull, but that really just isn't true even compared to a school like GULC - the worst actual national school.

[chuckbass]

You also have to account for self-selection, considering there will be several people with good grades at Vandy that only want to work in the South East.

Just to add to my point, you're acting like it must be the case that almost everyone at Vandy just really wants TN and doesn't want to be in other locations.

No, I never said anything about TN. The class profile supports exactly what I said. A lot of the students are from the South East, and that is where they seek work after.

[Princetonlaw68]

In NYC, no1 could gaf about Vandy.

any that were not in the top 10% would definitely have some difficulty in NY.

Vanderbilt is a regional school. I know the people who go there don't like to hear it, and many of them persistently try to argue that it has great national pull, but that really just isn't true even compared to a school like GULC - the worst actual national school.

Yes, I maintain everything I said. I do think someone not in top 10% from Vandy would have difficulty in NY. (That doesn't mean they can't get a job in NY, just have some difficulty.)

Yes, I said they don't gaf, but I think I'm entitled to a little exaggeration. And yeah, to the extent that it's just another good school that's not a T14 and goes below Fordham on the resume piles, they really don't give too much of a f.

It is a regional school. Just because you have a little national pull doesn't mean you're not a regional.

[Princetonlaw68]

You also have to account for self-selection, considering there will be several people with good grades at Vandy that only want to work in the South East.

Just to add to my point, you're acting like it must be the case that almost everyone at Vandy just really wants TN and doesn't want to be in other locations.

No, I never said anything about TN. The class profile supports exactly what I said. A lot of the students are from the South East, and that is where they seek work after.

There are also a lot of students there from the north. Not like 20% total or something. Lots and lots of people going there disappointed to realize it's mainly a regional (with yes, a little national pull). People from the north do not go to vandy hoping to work in the south, generally. Lots and lots of people going there because it's the top non-T14, and it's very hyped up as being more national than it really is. It's not a little behind a T14 for national placement, it's very far behind.

If you think the 16 California students, 12 NY students, 6 NJ, 6 Pennsylvania, and the many Michigan, DC etc. are mostly looking for a change of scenery and want to work in the south, I have to let you know that I know people who have been angered by the Vandy-less national than it seems phenomenon first hand.
(I think it's clear the students are pretty much from all over.)

[A. Nony Mouse]

There are also a lot of students there from the north. Not like 20% total or something. Lots and lots of people going there disappointed to realize it's mainly a regional (with yes, a little national pull). People from the north do not go to vandy hoping to work in the south, generally. Lots and lots of people going there because it's the top non-T14, and it's very hyped up as being more national than it really is. It's not a little behind a T14 for national placement, it's very far behind.

Do you have actual numbers for this? Especially for the law school (not extrapolating from undergrad).

[Princetonlaw68]

There are also a lot of students there from the north. Not like 20% total or something. Lots and lots of people going there disappointed to realize it's mainly a regional (with yes, a little national pull). People from the north do not go to vandy hoping to work in the south, generally. Lots and lots of people going there because it's the top non-T14, and it's very hyped up as being more national than it really is. It's not a little behind a T14 for national placement, it's very far behind.

Do you have actual numbers for this? Especially for the law school (not extrapolating from undergrad).

I don't have numbers but I've spoken to many people at large law firms and none of them put Vanderbilt into the category along with T14s. For NYC they'll say obviously the whole HYS thing, Columbia you're getting it if you're breathing, then NYU, then talk about rest of the T14 in similar ways (yes, including Gtown). Vandy does not make the cut in these conversations. Hence my hyperbolic statement they don't gaf about it.


If we could ask some partners on this site at large NYC firms, most would agree with this sentiment.

[A. Nony Mouse]

There are also a lot of students there from the north. Not like 20% total or something. Lots and lots of people going there disappointed to realize it's mainly a regional (with yes, a little national pull). People from the north do not go to vandy hoping to work in the south, generally. Lots and lots of people going there because it's the top non-T14, and it's very hyped up as being more national than it really is. It's not a little behind a T14 for national placement, it's very far behind.

Do you have actual numbers for this? Especially for the law school (not extrapolating from undergrad).

I don't have numbers but I've spoken to many people at large law firms and none of them puts Vanderbilt into the category along with T14s. For NYC they'll say obviously the whole HYS thing, Columbia you're getting it if you're breathing, then talk about rest of the T14 in similar ways (yes, including Gtown). Vandy does not make the cut in these conversations. Hence my hyperbolic statement they don't gaf about it.

If we could ask some partners on this site at large NYC firms, most would agree with this sentiment.

I actually meant numbers for the claim that lots of people (especially northerners) go to Vandy and end up disappointed to realize it places primarily in the south. Because I've never seen anyone here claim anything but that it places primarily in the south. Saying you can get to NYC from Vandy doesn't contradict that.

[Princetonlaw68]

There are also a lot of students there from the north. Not like 20% total or something. Lots and lots of people going there disappointed to realize it's mainly a regional (with yes, a little national pull). People from the north do not go to vandy hoping to work in the south, generally. Lots and lots of people going there because it's the top non-T14, and it's very hyped up as being more national than it really is. It's not a little behind a T14 for national placement, it's very far behind.

Do you have actual numbers for this? Especially for the law school (not extrapolating from undergrad).

I don't have numbers but I've spoken to many people at large law firms and none of them puts Vanderbilt into the category along with T14s. For NYC they'll say obviously the whole HYS thing, Columbia you're getting it if you're breathing, then talk about rest of the T14 in similar ways (yes, including Gtown). Vandy does not make the cut in these conversations. Hence my hyperbolic statement they don't gaf about it.

If we could ask some partners on this site at large NYC firms, most would agree with this sentiment.

I actually meant numbers for the claim that lots of people (especially northerners) go to Vandy and end up disappointed to realize it places primarily in the south. Because I've never seen anyone here claim anything but that it places primarily in the south. Saying you can get to NYC from Vandy doesn't contradict that.

Yes, and I never said anything about people here. I'm just saying people on this site say oh yeah self-selection, they have more national pull than it seems. I think that the self selection holds far truer in the case of many other schools. A lot of their placement being where it is is not self-selection, and just the facts of life for many of these pour souls who don't understand that it's not really a national school.

Edit: And by people on this site, I'm talking about a couple people in this thread only.



I never said you can't get NYC from Vandy.

[chuckbass]

There are also a lot of students there from the north. Not like 20% total or something. Lots and lots of people going there disappointed to realize it's mainly a regional (with yes, a little national pull). People from the north do not go to vandy hoping to work in the south, generally. Lots and lots of people going there because it's the top non-T14, and it's very hyped up as being more national than it really is. It's not a little behind a T14 for national placement, it's very far behind.

Do you have actual numbers for this? Especially for the law school (not extrapolating from undergrad).

6.8% of c/o 2013 was from DC/MD/VA
8.7% of c/o 2013 ended up in DC

5.8% of c/o 2013 was from NY/NJ
11.7% ended up in NY

8.2% of c/o 2013 is from the North, excluding NY/NJ. Please refute these facts that are published on the website and reported by the NALP.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yes, and I never said anything about people here. I'm just saying people on this site say oh yeah self-selection, they have more national pull than it seems. I think that the self selection holds far truer in the case of many other schools. A lot of their placement being where it is is not self-selection, and just the facts of life for many of these pour souls who don't understand that it's not really a national school.

Okay. That's why I was asking about numbers, because honestly, I think self-selection is a pretty reasonable explanation for where they place. I don't get the idea that somehow people are being suckered into going to Vandy because they think they're getting Chicago or Boston or LA or something, unless you can show numbers of northerners/westerners/midwesterners attending who might be so deluded.

(Or... the numbers scotti posted.)

[Princetonlaw68]

There are also a lot of students there from the north. Not like 20% total or something. Lots and lots of people going there disappointed to realize it's mainly a regional (with yes, a little national pull). People from the north do not go to vandy hoping to work in the south, generally. Lots and lots of people going there because it's the top non-T14, and it's very hyped up as being more national than it really is. It's not a little behind a T14 for national placement, it's very far behind.

Do you have actual numbers for this? Especially for the law school (not extrapolating from undergrad).

6.8% of c/o 2013 was from DC/MD/VA
8.7% of c/o 2013 ended up in DC

5.8% of c/o 2013 was from NY/NJ
11.7% ended up in NY

8.2% of c/o 2013 is from the North, excluding NY/NJ. Please refute these facts that are published on the website and reported by the NALP.

Link?


And you're assuming everyone who got the NY jobs were from NY/NJ, everyone who got the DC jobs were from DC/MD/VA? NY and DC are obvious top markets and lots of people from the class are going to try to get jobs there because that's where many of the best jobs are.

[chuckbass]

There are also a lot of students there from the north. Not like 20% total or something. Lots and lots of people going there disappointed to realize it's mainly a regional (with yes, a little national pull). People from the north do not go to vandy hoping to work in the south, generally. Lots and lots of people going there because it's the top non-T14, and it's very hyped up as being more national than it really is. It's not a little behind a T14 for national placement, it's very far behind.

Do you have actual numbers for this? Especially for the law school (not extrapolating from undergrad).

6.8% of c/o 2013 was from DC/MD/VA
8.7% of c/o 2013 ended up in DC

5.8% of c/o 2013 was from NY/NJ
11.7% ended up in NY

8.2% of c/o 2013 is from the North, excluding NY/NJ. Please refute these facts that are published on the website and reported by the NALP.

Link?

Geographic Origin c/o 2013:
http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... origin.php
Placement c/o 2013:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/vanderbilt/2013/
These stats also show that 46% of the c/o 2013 is from the South, which again, supports self-selection.