Dilemma between undesirable T2 and neutral T3s Forum

[rayiner]

I rather take my chances, knowing I'm going to work hard and if I'm not good enough then I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

If you're actually willing to follow through with that plan, knock yourself out.

[iloveturtles]

I actually scored ~163 in practice tests but like I said, I don't have any tries left and I want to go law school now rather than in a couple years. People on here keep telling me I shouldn't do it, or that I can't...and honestly all I can say is not with that attitude!

Yeah okay, maybe T2/3/4s have a harder time competing for jobs with T1s but the fact remains they still land jobs and that's all I really need to hear. The way I view it, if you're going to wait for all the stars to align before you do anything then you're going to have a bad time. I rather take my chances, knowing I'm going to work hard and if I'm not good enough then I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

You have a full ride somewhere?

Just about. I need to fork out less than 5K after scholarship for the first year.

[IAFG]

Can you get any grade stipulations removed in case you end up deciding to stay despite missing the cut off?

[Paul Campos]

I rather take my chances, knowing I'm going to work hard and if I'm not good enough then I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

No one ever actually ends up doing this, which is why law schools use stips and front-loaded discounts to take advantage of the sunk cost fallacy.

[iloveturtles]

Can you get any grade stipulations removed in case you end up deciding to stay despite missing the cut off?

How do I go about doing that? This is the first good piece of advice I've heard in this thread. The school has a scholarship policy, I just need to be in the top half or so to retain full scholarship.

I rather take my chances, knowing I'm going to work hard and if I'm not good enough then I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

No one ever actually ends up doing this, which is why law schools use stips and front-loaded discounts to take advantage of the sunk cost fallacy.

I know they do that. I've had good offers from schools but their scholarship policy sucked. There was one in particular where you had to be in top 5% to get full scholarship after the first year so I withdrew from there.

[HRomanus]

I actually scored ~163 in practice tests but like I said, I don't have any tries left and I want to go law school now rather than in a couple years. People on here keep telling me I shouldn't do it, or that I can't...and honestly all I can say is not with that attitude!

Yeah okay, maybe T2/3/4s have a harder time competing for jobs with T1s but the fact remains they still land jobs and that's all I really need to hear. The way I view it, if you're going to wait for all the stars to align before you do anything then you're going to have a bad time. I rather take my chances, knowing I'm going to work hard and if I'm not good enough then I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

I am from South Carolina and our flagship law school (ranked #92) is very respected in the state. Friends and professional colleagues thought I was insane for turning down a full tuition scholarship. Its employment score is very good on its face. A majority of students are working in law firms or clerking!

But look at this salary stat (from c/o 2012):
25th percentile: $40,334
50th percentile: $49,025
75th percentile: $65,000

And those are distributions forgetting the 20% unemployed.

Are those salaries better than what can expect 3 years from now in potential employment alternatives? Going by your logic, factor in your ability to "work hard" and predict that you'll get several raises and promotions. Now consider that you will also have lost 3 years of salary in your employment alternative. Now does going to TTT or TTTT at full scholarship make any financial sense?

Also, what are your choices? SC Law is a rare T2 in that it is the law school in the state and graduates have an amazing alumni network. Their only real competition is from SC natives returning from better law schools. I would guess your employment chances and salary distributions won't be as favorable.

[IAFG]

Can you get any grade stipulations removed in case you end up deciding to stay despite missing the cut off?

How do I go about doing that? This is the first good piece of advice I've heard in this thread. The school has a scholarship policy, I just need to be in the top half or so to retain full scholarship.

Insist they remove it or you won't be able to attend.

[californiauser]

I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

Morally, this is still a problem. If you go on a full-ride, some other poor soul will be subsidizing your exorbitant educational costs. By attending a TTT, you'll enable a usurious system that has and will continue to ruin the lives of those too ignorant to make sound financial decisions. These institutions all deserve to be shut down. By not going or by retaking, you'll actually be doing a great service to your generational cohorts.

[IAFG]

I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

Morally, this is still a problem. If you go on a full-ride, some other poor soul will be subsidizing your exorbitant educational costs. By attending a TTT, you'll enable a usurious system that has and will continue to ruin the lives of those too ignorant to make sound financial decisions. These institutions all deserve to be shut down. By not going or by retaking, you'll actually be doing a great service to your generational cohorts.

[iloveturtles]

I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

Morally, this is still a problem. If you go on a full-ride, some other poor soul will be subsidizing your exorbitant educational costs. By attending a TTT, you'll enable a usurious system that has and will continue to ruin the lives of those too ignorant to make sound financial decisions. These institutions all deserve to be shut down. By not going or by retaking, you'll actually be doing a great service to your generational cohorts.

You look at the cup half empty, I look at it as half full. You're entitled to your opinion but I see it as an opportunity to prove myself.


Edit: I got work to do so I can't be replying to this thread all day! Hopefully, I get more encouraging advice cause I've already made up my mind on going to law school.

[ymmv]

This is the first good piece of advice I've heard in this thread.

You've heard plenty of good advice, but you didn't come here for that. You came here for special snowflake affirmation of your terrible plans.
That said, if you're truly aware what you're getting into, and you're still willing to go down that road, then more power to you I guess. I can't imagine why anyone would do this to themselves with a full understanding of the (highly) probable consequences, but I suppose some people are even less risk averse than I am.

[worldtraveler]

Why can't you just name the schools and the scholarship offers?

[HRomanus]

Hopefully, I get more encouraging advice cause I've already made up my mind on going to law school.

Wow. I've never seen someone so explicity identify with confirmation bias.

I mean this seriously: good luck in law school!

[twenty]

Yeah, the 5% stip is almost definitely from Whittier. I think OP doesn't want to out his school options because he doesn't want people to quote LST at him.

I get more encouraging advice cause I've already made up my mind on going to law school.

That's not how "advice" works.

[Gooner91]

Can you get any grade stipulations removed in case you end up deciding to stay despite missing the cut off?

How do I go about doing that? This is the first good piece of advice I've heard in this thread. The school has a scholarship policy, I just need to be in the top half or so to retain full scholarship.

Insist they remove it or you won't be able to attend.

Do this.

[TheSpanishMain]

I actually scored ~163 in practice tests but like I said, I don't have any tries left and I want to go law school now rather than in a couple years. People on here keep telling me I shouldn't do it, or that I can't...and honestly all I can say is not with that attitude!

This isn't a Lifetime movie where the power of your positive attitude, combined with some "studying in the library" montages set to 80s music, will let you defy all the haters. You need to be realistic here. All of your classmates are going to think they're the Special Chosen One too, and the vast majority will be wrong.

Yeah okay, maybe T2/3/4s have a harder time competing for jobs with T1s but the fact remains they still land jobs and that's all I really need to hear.

Well, yeah, they do land jobs. No one is arguing that every single TTTT grad is unemployed. They just land jobs at a much lower rate than people at better schools, and the jobs themselves tend to be much lower quality. If doing document review in an abandoned slaughterhouse for 39k sounds good to you, go nuts I suppose.

The way I view it, if you're going to wait for all the stars to align before you do anything then you're going to have a bad time. I rather take my chances, knowing I'm going to work hard and if I'm not good enough then I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

I agree, but no one is arguing your situation must be ideal. No one is saying that you need a 180/4.0 before law school becomes viable. Not all the stars need to align....but at least most of them do. You seem bound and determined to do this, so at a minimum, please put all this "Tier 1 vs. Tier 2 vs. Tier 3 vs Tier 4" BS out of your head. Past a certain point, the USNWR rankings are totally meaningless. Focus on jobs data and cost, not on whether the school is ranked 149th or 151st.

[HRomanus]

I rather take my chances, knowing I'm going to work hard and if I'm not good enough then I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

You also have to consider lost income as debt for purposes of your analysis. That will add another $20-$30k on average to your cost.

[Gooner91]

Edit: I got work to do so I can't be replying to this thread all day! Hopefully, I get more encouraging advice cause I've already made up my mind on going to law school.

So what are you asking? If it's a good idea to go to regional school for close to sticker in an area you have no ties to and don't want to practice in?

[timbs4339]

Tell them you have other offers. Ask they remove it, if they don't remove it, ask them to lower it to good academic standing or top 80%. If you are lower than top 80% you should drop out immediately as you in all likelihood will not have the ability to pass the bar let alone be competitive for jobs. If they refuse to remove it don't go- they are trying to sell you a lemon. Why would you want to deal with people who are hoping that you fail?

You don't seem to have thought this through. Have you calculated the actual debt numbers? How much debt will you be in at the end of three years?

[Danger Zone]

Never mind, you deserve debt and unhappiness.

[exitoptions]

"The world needs plenty of [irredeemably indebted] bartenders!" Hope this satisfies your desire for encouraging advice.

[fanlinxun]

I don't post much and I generally oppose the "retake or don't go to law school" mentality that fills so many of these threads, but OP you really need to start asking yourself what you want to get out of law school. If your plan is to either transfer or drop out then you are wasting a year regardless of how much it costs.

Four years ago I ignorantly went to a T2 planning to transfer. I worked my tail off my first year and ended up being able to transfer to a much better school. While others were taking it a little easier during 2L year I worked myself to death again so I could have decent grades in my new school. I am now working at a top NY firm and living the biglaw "dream." (Noting that I don't sleep enough now to actually have any dreams.)

Despite my success, when I look back all I see is how I played with fire in law school. I was always one bad exam away from complete failure. 90% of my 1L class came in with the same goals I did and failed. Most of them worked hard, but unfortunately law school success goes beyond hard work. Some people are good at it and others are not, despite their best efforts. The worst part is that you cannot possibly know if you will be good at it until you receive your first semester grades. (Trust me, everyone walks out of the exams talking about the same "right" answers) That is the time that 90%+ of the class begins to panic. It is also too late.

Looking back, I should have retaken and used my good GPA to go to a decent school. OP, you do not have that option. If you go to a T3 there is a 90% chance that you will not realize your goals. If you drop out you will have to explain to employers in other fields why you dropped out or find some other way to explain away a year of your life. You will lose a year of experience in another field and likely close the door to that field if you want to come back later.

There is a select group of people for whom a TTT or TTTT is a good decision, but I don't think you are in that group. This may come off as harsh, but just because you want to go to law school does not make it the right choice. You have tried your best and right now you have the chance to walk away with your head up knowing you gave your all. If you follow your current plan there is a 90%+ chance that you will walk away with your head down despite giving it your all.

[sd5289]

I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

Morally, this is still a problem. If you go on a full-ride, some other poor soul will be subsidizing your exorbitant educational costs. By attending a TTT, you'll enable a usurious system that has and will continue to ruin the lives of those too ignorant to make sound financial decisions. These institutions all deserve to be shut down. By not going or by retaking, you'll actually be doing a great service to your generational cohorts.

Oh please. If people at my school were stupid enough to pay sticker in order to finance my full ride, the problem isn't me, it's them. I only came here because I knew I was PI/Gov't bound in my local market, and just used my numbers to negotiate the best deal possible (at a regional, it's full ride or bust). That doesn't mean I'm somehow morally deficient; it means the sticker-paying students are idiots.

[sd5289]

I don't post much and I generally oppose the "retake or don't go to law school" mentality that fills so many of these threads, but OP you really need to start asking yourself what you want to get out of law school.

Yes, people say "retake" all the time because...why not? What's the worst that will happen? You end up scoring a few points higher?

But the general mantra isn't "retake or don't go to law school." The general mantra, in response to idiotic decisions like that posed in this thread, is "retake or don't go to these law schools." There are plenty of people here who will also tell you that assuming you've got a full ride, without stips, and your COL is under control, it's not a complete disaster. It would be nice if you have that scenario at a school that has some kind of regional recognition at the very least. This is actually one of the very first threads that I've seen (and agreed with) the reaction of "just don't go" because honestly, that's the only responsible advice to give in this scenario. The OP has set up one train wreck after another with these choices, and every single one is certain to lead to one place only: off a cliff.

[SFrost]

The way I view it, if you're going to wait for all the stars to align before you do anything then you're going to have a bad time. I rather take my chances, knowing I'm going to work hard and if I'm not good enough then I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

Just curious, but how do you rationalize your ability to 'work hard'?

You didn't work hard as an undergraduate, as evidenced by a horrible GPA.

You didn't work hard for the LSAT, as evidenced by a terrible LSAT.

When have you truly worked hard in your life? This isn't a flame. I'm asking if you truly believe, based on your track record, you will suddenly change in law school and be in the top 10%. You have no record of academic success, yet you want to pursue a career which requires you to succeed academically for 3 years.