HLS vs NYU (now with final COA and more info) Forum

[nunumaster]

NYU is leading with 80% right now. This reaffirms the beliefs I've held and that my original post is perhaps biased towards. I'd love to hear more from the opposition on how HLS can be a better choice for someone like me.

Can HLS be a good place to be for someone who is generally ambitious, rather than specifically ambitious? The feeling I got from my ASW visit was that there is a multitude of resources but they are only as good as you make them to be if you actually know what to pursue and what you're doing.

Let's say I end up at a V10 firm which will give me better exit opps than getting a V100 with NYU. Can the exit opp be justified by paying more now? or will the lack of debt from NYU give me freedom to do what I wish, which would offset all of that.

I don't argue that HLS is giving an amazing deal, but it seems silly to accept it just because I've got the jackpot best deal I possibly can get from there.

Also, there are things to be said about HLS grading system vs NYU and being grade averse. Worth the difference in money?
I have reason to believe I can outperform my numbers based on work experience, but it would be foolish of me to think that I could if I were bottom 30% or something at NYU.

No, Harvard Law School is not a place for ambitious people.

I think you misunderstood the point of that sentence. I meant if I'm just vague about my aspirations and end up at big law working side by side with NYU students, I don't see the extra debt being justifiable.

Pretty sure he was just being facetious and/or exasperated by the idea that HLS could be considered at all "bad" for ambitious folks.

yea I know. I'm just clarifying that I didn't mean for it to be read that way ( "can Harvard be bad for people who are ambitious"), instead meaning "can HLS be the poorer decision for someone ambitious but without direction, compared to NYU on a full ride"

[ph14]

No, Harvard Law School is not a place for ambitious people.

I think you misunderstood the point of that sentence. I meant if I'm just vague about my aspirations and end up at big law working side by side with NYU students, I don't see the extra debt being justifiable.

Pretty sure he was just being facetious and/or exasperated by the idea that HLS could be considered at all "bad" for ambitious folks.

yea I know. I'm just clarifying that I didn't mean for it to be read that way ( "can Harvard be bad for people who are ambitious"), instead meaning "can HLS be the poorer decision for someone ambitious but without direction, compared to NYU on a full ride"

Yes, HLS is not always the right decision. It sounds like you really are (1) debt averse, (2) are set on NYC transactional law (at least, as far as an 0L really knows what they want to do), and (3) leaning toward NYU. In that case, you probably should take NYU with the full tuition scholarship.

I probably would make a different decision in your shoes but I don't think you can go wrong here. Keep in mind that many 0Ls don't have "direction." I think that is natural, and I'm always surprised at people that are dead set on doing certain types of work without ever setting foot in law school. Many people in HLS enter that way but start figuring out what they want to do during law school. And it's not always big law. If anything, HLS is more valuable for someone who is directionless than if one were dead set on biglaw.

[Power_of_Facing]

In theory, an NYU full ride might be comparably better than HLS for someone without clear goals if it came with dedicated career placement resources unavailable to the rest of the student body. Not sure if this factor would be enough to trump HLS's superior placement, but it's a consideration.

[kaiser]

In theory, an NYU full ride might be comparably better than HLS for someone without clear goals if it came with dedicated career placement resources unavailable to the rest of the student body. Not sure if this factor would be enough to trump HLS's superior placement, but it's a consideration.

As far as biglaw in NY, HLS's placement power isn't going to be much better than that of NYU or CLS. Any grad who works in an NYC firm could tell you that. While the differences between HLS and NYU may be substantial in certain ways, those differences are most minimal in the context of NYC biglaw placement.

[jingosaur]

OP it seem like you are heavily leaning towards NYU and want justification that turning down HLS is the right choice. If this is the case, then you almost definitely won't regret doing that.

[ph14]

OP it seem like you are heavily leaning towards NYU and want justification that turning down HLS is the right choice. If this is the case, then you almost definitely won't regret doing that.

This seems right.

[SFrost]

I would take HLS in a heartbeat. I would then probably regret the extra debt in 4 years and be working the same job as if I had gone NYU.

Source: I'm a prestige whore.

[ph14]

I would take HLS in a heartbeat. I would then probably regret the extra debt in 4 years and be working the same job as if I had gone NYU.

Source: I'm a prestige whore.

There are good reasons to pick HLS in addition to prestige.

[transferror]

I would take HLS in a heartbeat. I would then probably regret the extra debt in 4 years and be working the same job as if I had gone NYU.

Source: I'm a prestige whore.

There are good reasons to pick HLS in addition to prestige.

Yeah, but NYC biglaw isn't one of them

[ph14]

I would take HLS in a heartbeat. I would then probably regret the extra debt in 4 years and be working the same job as if I had gone NYU.

Source: I'm a prestige whore.

There are good reasons to pick HLS in addition to prestige.

Yeah, but NYC biglaw isn't one of them

Depends on the particulars of your situation.

[transferror]

I would take HLS in a heartbeat. I would then probably regret the extra debt in 4 years and be working the same job as if I had gone NYU.

Source: I'm a prestige whore.

There are good reasons to pick HLS in addition to prestige.

Yeah, but NYC biglaw isn't one of them

Depends on the particulars of your situation.

Maybe, but the particulars of this situation are "should OP pay an extra 97k for HLS for NYC transactional biglaw?" In a vacuum, Harvard for <175k is excellent, but it's not worth it here.

[ph14]

There are good reasons to pick HLS in addition to prestige.

Yeah, but NYC biglaw isn't one of them

Depends on the particulars of your situation.

Maybe, but the particulars of this situation are "should OP pay an extra 97k for HLS for NYC transactional biglaw?" In a vacuum, Harvard for <175k is excellent, but it's not worth it here.

I'm inclined to agree after hearing more about OPs situation and how he seems set on NYC big law. I was mainly nitpicking SFrost's disclaimer. But I also don't think it's as easy of a decision as you guys state.

[transferror]

I'm inclined to agree after hearing more about OPs situation and how he seems set on NYC big law. I was mainly nitpicking SFrost's disclaimer. But I also don't think it's as easy of a decision as you guys state.

I agree that it's not an easy decision. I would personally choose HLS, but NYU is much cheaper and fits OP's current goals about as well as HLS. I think everyone agrees that both are objectively "good" options, so now we're fighting over the little stuff.

[love4life29]

.

[nunumaster]

OP it seem like you are heavily leaning towards NYU and want justification that turning down HLS is the right choice. If this is the case, then you almost definitely won't regret doing that.

This seems right.

I mean, clearly, I am leaning towards NYU, but I'm not looking for validation. I came on this thread for exactly the opposite reason.

I'm inclined to agree after hearing more about OPs situation and how he seems set on NYC big law. I was mainly nitpicking SFrost's disclaimer. But I also don't think it's as easy of a decision as you guys state.

I agree that it's not an easy decision. I would personally choose HLS, but NYU is much cheaper and fits OP's current goals about as well as HLS. I think everyone agrees that both are objectively "good" options, so now we're fighting over the little stuff.

Thanks to everyone who's voiced their opinion so far. For all the people who would still pick HLS over NYU here, I want to know why. It seems it won't be worth it for pure NYC transactional law, but as mentioned before, I'm a 0L so I don't know anything about my preferences. How can HLS help me out if I decide academia or PI will probably not interest me. (I might be open for future in fed gov in the distant future though).

Will HLS help in specific ways if you are business oriented?

[kaiser]

What if you go to NYU and don't do well? It seems like doing average at NYU and doing average at HLS won't give you the same opportunities. HLS also has an amazing low income protection program that can give you a lot of flexibility.

Full disclosure: I'm a 0L, likely going to HLS.

Doing average at NYU will almost surely still get you a NYC big firm job

[jingosaur]

Thanks to everyone who's voiced their opinion so far. For all the people who would still pick HLS over NYU here, I want to know why. It seems it won't be worth it for pure NYC transactional law, but as mentioned before, I'm a 0L so I don't know anything about my preferences. How can HLS help me out if I decide academia or PI will probably not interest me. (I might be open for future in fed gov in the distant future though).

Will HLS help in specific ways if you are business oriented?

I chose HLS over NYU this cycle and I'm business oriented and want to do transactional law. I had less of a $$ gap than you, but I would still easily choose HLS in your situation. Here are some of the reasons why:

1. I have a management consulting background in some very specialized areas of finance and as a lawyer, I want to be able to leverage this experience on a transactional level. Only a small group of law firms have a large presence in this space so I want to maximize my chances of getting hired by one of them.
2. Long term, I want to go in-house at a specialty finance firm or start my own specialty finance firm. The Harvard brand gives people much more credibility in this space than NYU. It's really more about the network that each school has rather than the prestige.
3. I put a lot of value in academic experience. NYU has a great business and law program, but HLS has a lot more resources for it. Since I have fairly specific career goals, HLS's expanded course offering will give me more access to what I want to study during 2L and 3L.
4. I initially intended to pursue a JD/MBA so I cared a lot about the business schools at which law school I attend and HBS and Stern aren't even close. I don't think it's necessary for me to get the MBA at Harvard or NYU because of the business programs at their law schools, but I still want to take cross-listed classes. Without getting the MBA, I can't take the core 1st year MBA classes, but I have an UG business degree so these aren't super important to me.
5. On a long term scale, I don't think the difference in money will be that significant. I've paid back significant student loan debt while living in NYC and I will hopefully be making a lot of money long-term. I'm also fairly conservative with my day-to-day spending so I'm fine with not having a lot of money left over after taxes and student loan payments.

[drawstring]

Given your goals and the substantial COA difference, I think NYU is the clear choice.

[jumpin munkey]

HLS here really seems like throwing money away given your situation. You're basically paying $100k to get Davis Polk instead of Shearman. Certainly if you're not inclined to go to HLS in the first place, don't think twice about choosing NYU.

[transferror]

Thanks to everyone who's voiced their opinion so far. For all the people who would still pick HLS over NYU here, I want to know why. It seems it won't be worth it for pure NYC transactional law, but as mentioned before, I'm a 0L so I don't know anything about my preferences. How can HLS help me out if I decide academia or PI will probably not interest me. (I might be open for future in fed gov in the distant future though).

Will HLS help in specific ways if you are business oriented?

I chose HLS over NYU this cycle and I'm business oriented and want to do transactional law. I had less of a $$ gap than you, but I would still easily choose HLS in your situation. Here are some of the reasons why:

1. I have a management consulting background in some very specialized areas of finance and as a lawyer, I want to be able to leverage this experience on a transactional level. Only a small group of law firms have a large presence in this space so I want to maximize my chances of getting hired by one of them.
2. Long term, I want to go in-house at a specialty finance firm or start my own specialty finance firm. The Harvard brand gives people much more credibility in this space than NYU. It's really more about the network that each school has rather than the prestige.
3. I put a lot of value in academic experience. NYU has a great business and law program, but HLS has a lot more resources for it. Since I have fairly specific career goals, HLS's expanded course offering will give me more access to what I want to study during 2L and 3L.
4. I initially intended to pursue a JD/MBA so I cared a lot about the business schools at which law school I attend and HBS and Stern aren't even close. I don't think it's necessary for me to get the MBA at Harvard or NYU because of the business programs at their law schools, but I still want to take cross-listed classes. Without getting the MBA, I can't take the core 1st year MBA classes, but I have an UG business degree so these aren't super important to me.
5. On a long term scale, I don't think the difference in money will be that significant. I've paid back significant student loan debt while living in NYC and I will hopefully be making a lot of money long-term. I'm also fairly conservative with my day-to-day spending so I'm fine with not having a lot of money left over after taxes and student loan payments.

First, you're giving advice about how the financial gap is worth it for HLS, but you haven't yet attended LS or felt the postgrad weight of that debt. Second, you're basically just explaining why HLS was right for you (and it may well be), but none of your points were tailored to OP.

You want a very specific type of transactional law tailored to your background in finance, but OP doesn't. You want to be able to take some cross-listed classes and have the resources of HBS, but OP doesn't. You want to be able to start a specialty finance firm where the lay prestige of Harvard will probably help, but OP doesn't. You don't seem to be debt averse, it sounds like OP is.

NYU will not help you meet your goals quite as well as HLS (and your cost gap is smaller), but NYU will serve OP about as well HLS for significantly less money. Leave your own experience/goals at home. Good luck at HLS btw

[thewaves]

What if you go to NYU and don't do well? It seems like doing average at NYU and doing average at HLS won't give you the same opportunities. HLS also has an amazing low income protection program that can give you a lot of flexibility.

Full disclosure: I'm a 0L, likely going to HLS.

Doing average at NYU will almost surely still get you a NYC big firm job

Hm...

[ph14]

What if you go to NYU and don't do well? It seems like doing average at NYU and doing average at HLS won't give you the same opportunities. HLS also has an amazing low income protection program that can give you a lot of flexibility.

Full disclosure: I'm a 0L, likely going to HLS.

Doing average at NYU will almost surely still get you a NYC big firm job

Hm...

Keep in mind half or just under half the class does worse than average.

[jumpin munkey]

Even ceding for the sake of argument that HLS has better placement power than NYU for transactional biglaw in NYC, paying $100k to guard against the chance that you fall into the tiny Venn diagram category of people who would strike out at NYU but would have gotten an offer had they been at HLS seems foolish. Based on the ABA stats, it's not even clear how many of those people exist.

Harvard obviously offers other benefits over NYU besides that, but most of those seem litigation- and government-side, which OP doesn't seem to want.

[MistakenGenius]

Post removed.

[ph14]

This is just things that I've heard (shrimptoastmasters told me maybe?), but doesn't HLS not have very good transactional classes...as in they don't exist?

0L and not going to HLS warning.

This really couldn't be more incorrect. HLS sends a lot of people into transactional law. Plus, with our large school and faculty size, we have more offerings in a wider variety of areas than many other schools.

I don't know how would could think that, as compared to other law schools, HLS is deficient in one of the areas it sends the most people into and one of the basic and core fields of practice.

Take everything ph says with a grain of salt. He often is dead-on with his advice, but you can't really get a bigger Harvard homer on this site. lol. Not anything wrong with it, Harvard's Harvard, but just so you know.

If you were aspiring to a top clerkship or Academia, Harvard would clearly be the way to go. That said, since your goal is NYU biglaw, you need to follow the money here. NYU places every bit as well as Harvard in New York Biglaw (it's their specialty), why spend an extra 80 grand for the exact same outcome?

You should take what I say with appropriate skepticism (as with everyone), but Scoober's post about HLS and transactional law was just plain objectively wrong, and it turns out to be because he misremembered what someone else had said.