Law v. Other Professions Forum

[cotiger]

It's so weird to me how the topic of career choice is always so divorced from personal satisfaction on TLS. Weighing careers based on education-required, starting pay, and relative ease is such a limited scope.

I certainly think personal satisfaction can be overstated. That is one of the problems with the undergrad system (I wanna study the environment cuz I like polar bears!). But different people feel more or less satisfied/energized through different types of work in different types of content.

Pay is relative factor. You basically need a little more than your parents (over your career) to feel satisfied if you're an average American.

Careers would probably be more productively discussed relative to personal satisfaction/contentedness/happiness (terrible word) priorities. Then, subsidiarily compared against similar careers on more specific criterion such as education and pay only as they relate to your personal contentedness goals.

Or do y'all view that as just hippie bullshit?

Agreed. It's also weird how the list of possible careers is so narrow. Finance, accounting, consulting, and "STEM" seem to be the only careers that exist outside of law on TLS. I think it might be bc law is such a prescribed route that people on here tend to think like this, but most of my friends do random shit without such a defined career path.

Throw in Sales and Management, and that encompasses everything I can think of for corporate type jobs.

That may be true, but there are plenty of other things you can do besides work at a corporate type job.

[Theopliske8711]

For many of those going into legal careers, imagination or the willingness to be imaginative wrt career options isn't something we are particularly good at.

[09042014]

"STEM" is kind of an insanely large category. It seems a bit silly to think of that category as narrow.

I know, but included it like that because mostly people don't know what they're talking about and just say STEM as if it's a thing.

They also don't typically see that as a possible category for the but just throw it out there bc there must be good jobs there. You can ignore the inclusion if you like.

STEM is flame anyway

Stem is a flame.

E&T isn't

[BmoreOrLess]

That may be true, but there are plenty of other things you can do besides work at a corporate type job.

Like what? Go be an electrician or a carpenter? A master carpenter would much rather have an 18 year old apprentice than some kid with a college degree.

[anyriotgirl]

That may be true, but there are plenty of other things you can do besides work at a corporate type job.

Like what? Go be an electrician or a carpenter? A master carpenter would much rather have an 18 year old apprentice than some kid with a college degree.

i know a guy who went and became a linesman with his college degree. definitely the exception though. trade school is also flame.

[cotiger]

That may be true, but there are plenty of other things you can do besides work at a corporate type job.

Like what? Go be an electrician or a carpenter? A master carpenter would much rather have an 18 year old apprentice than some kid with a college degree.

I'm not sure that you'll find this too helpful, but let me list what some of my (non-tech) friends do:

-Broadcaster/Media Relations at a AAA baseball team
-Graphics/News Researcher at the Colbert Report
-Develops and tests longitudinal studies for some health organization
-Reporter at Politico
-Film Director of primarily music videos but also documentaries/commercials (crazy successful)
-I dunno exactly, but he works like 50-60 hour weeks researching and designing maps

There's a whole wide world out there.

[yossarian]

That may be true, but there are plenty of other things you can do besides work at a corporate type job.

Like what? Go be an electrician or a carpenter? A master carpenter would much rather have an 18 year old apprentice than some kid with a college degree.

Lol at this. Undergrad has taught us you can go corporate or do HVAC. Most people I know work outside of these parameters.

[yossarian]

-I dunno exactly, but he works like 50-60 hour weeks researching and designing maps

GIS.

[cotiger]

-I dunno exactly, but he works like 50-60 hour weeks researching and designing maps

GIS.

Yeah, that.

[Theopliske8711]

Let's design a "should you go to law school?" and "help me choose between X offers!" app.

The app will have to copy DFs posting style.

[yossarian]

Let's design a "should you go to law school?" and "help me choose between X offers!" app.

The app will have to copy DFs posting style.

Seconded.

[mx23250]

Let's design a "should you go to law school?" and "help me choose between X offers!" app.

The app will have to copy DFs posting style.

This would be easy. Every input would simply result in a "Retake!" response, at least if we're modeling it after TLS.

[SnakySalmon]

Why does it matter if being a lawyer is objectively better or worse than being a doctor? They're really different jobs, and people should have enough of a preference between the two to know which they'd rather do.

[guano]

do other profession have a mandatory curve

any kind of investment management - fail to keep up and you lose clients. fail to make your numbers and you lose your job

[yossarian]

do other profession have a mandatory curve

any kind of investment management - fail to keep up and you lose clients. fail to make your numbers and you lose your job

this is not a mandatory curve. most professions have performance measures/built-in competition. however, the competition is within the performance of job duties. not within schooling. and competition is limited to whatever economy you work in (sector + region if applicable). competition is different for NYC GS bro than dude in a Chi suburb managing 100 retirement funds. Law school forces the curve on everyone alike and links employment outcomes to it. Not saying its wrong. Just pointing out the difference.

[Theopliske8711]

Let's design a "should you go to law school?" and "help me choose between X offers!" app.

The app will have to copy DFs posting style.

This would be easy. Every input would simply result in a "Retake!" response, at least if we're modeling it after TLS.

The first response would be a "don't go".

If the person presses. Retake.

If the person presses. Show job prospects.

If the person presses. Give them a humorous but frightening DF lecture on how shitty it is to be a lawyer.

[guano]

dude in a Chi suburb managing 100 retirement funds.

I want to meet that dude

[yossarian]

dude in a Chi suburb managing 100 retirement funds.

I want to meet that dude

Richard W. Clarke, MBA

http://www.clarkeinvestment.com/About-R ... arke.3.htm

[guano]

dude in a Chi suburb managing 100 retirement funds.

I want to meet that dude

Richard W. Clarke, MBA

http://www.clarkeinvestment.com/About-R ... arke.3.htm

A financial planner does not manage retirement funds

[yossarian]

A financial planner does not manage retirement funds

http://www.clarkeinvestment.com/Envisio ... ess.12.htm
For the average person, an investment fund is a retirement fund.

ETA: In no way do I know Richard M. Clarke, nor is this an endorsement of his services.
ETA2: This is really a pretty shitty rabbit trail. I think you got the point that capitalism's natural competition is different than the curve.

[lecsa]

Half my friends have PhDs in engineering or physics or math from MIT or something similar. They probably screwed around for 3 years and then did some work the rest of it.

Maybe this is why they took 7 years instead of 4-5 to graduate.
In any career it's going to be noticed if you dick around instead of working hard. The sciences are incredibly competitive with almost your entire reputation resting on publishing. If you don't work hard it will show in the quality of your published research, or you could get scooped and not get to publish at all.
You absolutely can't skate by on intelligence alone if you want to be successful. Once you've reached PhD level you are surrounded by people who are much smarter, and much more experienced than you in your field.

Maybe. Only one of them is going into academia too. The others found jobs in the industry (given they are high paying jobs that pay more than biglaw, like at Google as engineers etc.) They are financially better off than most biglawyers.

I'm not sure there are tons of people smarter than them though, even at the PhD level. They were MIT undergrad/MIT PhDds or some combination similar to that.

[NYSprague]

That may be true, but there are plenty of other things you can do besides work at a corporate type job.

Like what? Go be an electrician or a carpenter? A master carpenter would much rather have an 18 year old apprentice than some kid with a college degree.

I'm not sure that you'll find this too helpful, but let me list what some of my (non-tech) friends do:

-Broadcaster/Media Relations at a AAA baseball team
-Graphics/News Researcher at the Colbert Report
-Develops and tests longitudinal studies for some health organization
-Reporter at Politico
-Film Director of primarily music videos but also documentaries/commercials (crazy successful)
-I dunno exactly, but he works like 50-60 hour weeks researching and designing maps

There's a whole wide world out there.

This was more of what I meant. I have friends doing other stuff like working for NBC sports and another friend who is in music producing. The choice isn't between law or air conditioner repair school.

[HRomanus]

I don't think law school is that tough, and certainly not "tough" enough to compare it to any course of study that requires actual empirical research. When you take the grade component out of it, the material in law school is not all that bad. What makes law school "shitty" for a lot of people is that they want to be employed afterwards and to do so requires good (generally at least better than half the class) grades. The curve in law school only really matters because the grades you receive have a remarkable impact on your job opportunities. I'm willing to bet that if I were a computer science major or electrical engineer that my Bs would get me a job somewhere in my field. I just don't know many people who are heartbroken when they only get a B+ or B in O chem, etc.

Completely agree. My college roommate is getting his PhD in genetics and he's been fairly lackadasical about his grades (even though they're on a curve). The reason: grades will almost cease to matter once he begins his research and starts publishing. That also allots him a pretty fair cushion for mistakes, as a screwed up exam can be offset by research and have only a negligible impact on his professional success. In law school, a screwed up exam in 1L Fall can irrevocably shape your future.

[pketpket]

MY husband is a medical doctor currently finishing up residency in emergency, which is a specialty, and he works way more than 70 hours. Only 70 hours is a total joke. They are limited to working residents to 160 hours in a two week period with NO sick days and only two weeks of vacation that are schedule 12 months in advance one week in Fall and one week in Spring. Also they almost always schedule it so you work an overnight the day before vacation and the last day so it is really more like 5 days off. What happens when you do get sick is that you end up working two shifts for every one you miss trading with your buddy to cover your butt. No holidays of course. My Husband was gone Thanksgiving and Christmas and Easter. Also he has to touch people which to me is just gross. So yeah doctors get paid $$$ after, but they have to deal with people at their absolute worst, and work crazy weird hours and crazy high amounts of hours. Right now he is in residency and we make the exact same $ but I have a BS in Engineering.

So per hour he is getting like minimum wage. Also I didn't mention the scam of "report-able" hours. You see they schedule these residents to work six days a week for 10 hours with 12 hours on weekends. What they don't record is getting there an hour early to get briefed and then staying at least an hour late to chart the patients for the next doc to come on shift. Also they still have to go to "symposium" and work on projects where they make complex presentations all off the clock. Also you get bossed around my nurses with less education but get paid more. So no, becoming a physician is +++ way hard and only for those that absolutely are dead set at actually being physicians or working in a related capacity with consulting or research. My husband could have chosen dentistry, been paid as much or more and had easy hours. Therefore love of the profession is a key component for ANY career choice. I think medical students research really well going into it what do expect whereas law kids do not.

I my self have been out of school 5+ years and working as a professional engineer. I actually may get paid less as a newbie lawyer so my primary reason of earning a JD is purely for my own selfish pursuit and not helping to support my family. Also my husband was real supportive of the idea (I think he believes he could get free legal advice from me, but little does he know most lawyers specialize just like doctors now).

As someone who has worked in the real world as a professional I can tell you engineering is the way to go if you only want an undergrad degree,; most bang for your buck. As someone who went through engineering as a student I would say not more than 10% of people have what it takes. For me I was doing multiplication at age five, Algebra at 11 and calculus before I could drive. You just have to have a mind for math. I mostly do programming now, but everything, everything, everything is logic based. As far as grading it was brutal. ALL engineering classes were grading on a curve where most got C's not B's like how law schools grade now. Also you were in a class of 70-100 students where half, HALF the students were re-taking the class. Just try getting an A in that scenario. It was standard practice to audit classes a semester ahead so you were essentially taking the engineering classes twice every time, either by choice or force. I am talking about ACCREDITED engineering curriculum not those fluffy fake engineering degrees. As an engineer in the workforce I don't work a minute over 40 hours and have over 30 days paid vacation/holiday/sick leave. So quality of life is really great and I have every cushy benefit you could imagine, but I am isolated in an office staring at a computer 8 hours a day. Most of my meetings are by conference calls with live internet powerpoint presentations, so very little human interaction overall. This can be difficult for those who are extroverts like myself (granted a rare trait among the engineers I know).

Again being a doctor, engineer or a lawyer is about love of practice and I believe that is also true for all the traditional professions which historically are: Engineering, Law, Medicine, Theology (the religious kind)

As someone who has to pay my own bills I can tell you the passion for any career will fade real fast if you cannot afford the lifestyle you want. Some people (such as myself) are happy with vacations to the local beach, renting a small modest place, wearing bargain clothes and driving a Prius all while paying back student loans. Others (maybe most) would not be so happy. You need to figure out for yourself what you can really live with. I know people that hate their work, but make lots of money to enjoy luxuries and for them they are happy with that. Others prioritize time with their children and only work from home making half the pay they used to straight out of school. Life is long and you have to plan for the future you will mature into. Satisfaction at work and home is not something you can find a formula to solve. Some people never figure it out and end up unhappy at work and home. For me law school is a choice I am making with my eyes open and I have several contingency plans if patent law does not work out. I think this is the point of internships. Every engineer friend I have and myself did several internships and they really help you figure out what you like doing. I found out I really like picking things apart not so much building them so I became a validation engineer. I have heard from lawyers in my department and from family members that are practicing attorneys this is true for law as well. Don't be like that kid that plays basketball and thinks he is going to be an NBA star, being a lawyer and passing the bar does not guarantee you a seat on the Supreme Court.

"Be realistic, but keep that idealistic enthusiasm; you are going to need it to get through the workload."
-That is the advice my husband gave me last night and I thought I would share.

[Pneumonia]

^ thanks for that it was a good read.