UF vs ASU Forum

[w7ldcard]

I appreciate the debate and thought process from all of you. I would be okay living in either Arizona or Florida. I do like the fact that I have more major city choices with Florida

[AT9]

Florida vs Arizona is just a personal decision. Similarly weird political and cultural issues, but the climates and such are very different (obviously).

I wouldn't go to either for more than like $60k-$70k total COA.

Disclaimer: 0L opinion.

[raininthedesert]

Nucky is an ignoramus in sheep's clothing.

In respectful response to TheSpanishMain...

My prior response to you was my perception, which may have been incorrect (if so, my apologies), of your stance related to W&M vs. W&L. To me they are one in the same, although I will happily concede that I'd much rather live in the Williamsburg area (quicker access to 95 for escape). I'm admittedly not a particular fan of either school -- irrespective of ranking -- due to their geographic location and outdated reputation thanks to a bygone era. No secret that I'm partial to schools situated in or proximal to large urban markets...assuming of course that full consideration is given to TLS advice regarding debt and employment prospects are rationally assessed. The drop in W&L ranking only reinforced my repugnance for those applicants that continue to tout schools with no justifiable feeder market simply because those schools are loose with scholarship money. This drop was, of course, counterbalanced by W&M's rise into specious "you should go there because it is ranked high" territory. Just upsets me when applicants or admits with strong ties to (and desires to live and work in) specific markets select law schools that don't typically feed those markets. W&L is filled to the brim with out-of-staters at full tuition (over 30% of the class) who don't want to work in Virginia and many don't even want to work in D.C. -- my firm is a national firm with an office in D.C. and we don't typically even hire from W&L there. W&L students are all trying to relocate all over the country and typically competing against each other to get back into San Fran, LA, Miami, etc. Just crazy to me since most of the 3/4 to full scholarship recipients at W&L could've gone to top regional or local urban market schools for free or close to free.

But I digress, OP the major city choices aren't as significant as you might think and I'm speaking to you as someone who works out of both a D.C. and Miami office -- I'm not partial to Arizona but simply responding to your query. Florida has Tallahassee, Jacksonville, Orlando, Miami, and Tampa/St. Pete...Tallahassee and Miami are the only significant legal markets for most fields of law unless your talking about hanging a shingle. I will give props to "Trampa" for the most strip clubs per capita, so if your interest is in entertainment law then you are good to go. Arizona has Phoenix/Tempe and Tucson as well as the Southwest region and part of SoCal (San Diego, Las Vegas, Tahoe, Utah, and New Mexico) so it's likely a net wash.

If you had said I want to work in Florida then we would've said "don't go at all" or Florida. But you said California. There is really no decision other than the financial one.

[TheSpanishMain]

That makes way more sense. I thought you were just a USNWR devotee. I follow ya now.

[Nucky]

Nucky is an ignoramus in sheep's clothing.

In respectful response to TheSpanishMain...

My prior response to you was my perception, which may have been incorrect (if so, my apologies), of your stance related to W&M vs. W&L. To me they are one in the same, although I will happily concede that I'd much rather live in the Williamsburg area (quicker access to 95 for escape). I'm admittedly not a particular fan of either school -- irrespective of ranking -- due to their geographic location and outdate reputation thanks to a bygone era. No secret that I'm partial to schools situated in or proximal to large urban markets...assuming of course that TLS advice regarding debt and employment prospects are rationally assessed. The drop in W&L ranking only reinforced my repugnance for those applicants that continue to tout schools with no justifiable feeder market simply because those schools are loose with scholarship money. This drop was, of course, counterbalanced by W&M's rise into specious "you should go there because it is ranked high" territory. Just upsets me when applicants or admits with strong ties to (and desires to live and work in) specific markets select law schools that don't typically feed those markets. W&L is filled to the brim with out-of-staters at full tuition (over 30% of the class) who don't want to work in Virginia and many don't even want to work in D.C. -- my firm is a national firm with an office in D.C. and we don't typically even hire from W&L there. These students are all trying to relocate all over the country and typically competing against each other to get back into San Fran, LA, Miami, etc. Just crazy to me.

But I digress

raininthedesert, what you post on TLS qualifies as some of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent posts were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read your posts. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[raininthedesert]

That's disappointing to hear Nucky. I actually went to law school, graduated, found employment, and currently sit on a hiring committee. These facts in no way make me any better than the next person. My sincere hope was simply that these experiences might lend some insight into the law school selection process for those willing to be objective and serious about their indecision (admittedly many of these "which school" postings seem specious, or unforgivably naive for a future law student, which often causes me to respond with sarcasm).

Feel free to announce to us which law school you selected so we can all rejoice at your regrettable luck! However, if it's not UF Law then you definitely have some explaining to do...

[Nucky]

That's disappointing to hear Nucky...I actually went to law school, graduated, found employment, and currently sit on a hiring committee. These facts in no way make me any better than the next person. My sincere hope was simply that these experiences might lend some insight into the law school selection process for those willing to be objective and serious about their indecision (admittedly many of these "which school" postings seem specious, or unforgivably naive for a future law student, which often causes me to respond with sarcasm).

Feel free to announce to us which law school you selected so we can all rejoice at your regrettable luck! However, if it's not UF Law then you definitely have some explaining to do...

I would also hope that your experience could lend some thoughtful insight to the process for us 0L's. The problem is that you aren't speaking from your experience. You're slamming UF for nonsense like an uptight student body, and lack of resume building opportunities. Things you have zero experience with.

I gather from your post history that you're a Miami guy. I get the rivalry, but leave your biases out of your "advice." Lots of lurkers and posters here who don't even know what LST is. You're screwing with people's futures. Of course, we can have fun and be sarcastic with one another, but you're not really doing that in this case.

Also, for the record, if you already have your JD you should be old enough to know my previous post is a Billy Madison quote. "But I digress."

[Nucky]

Anyway, back to OP. We've provided enough entertainment for one day.

[raininthedesert]

That's where our misunderstanding lies Nucky...

I've actually never intentionally bashed UF. The "less-than-desirable" location comment wasn't intended to be rude. Gainesville would likely be a terrific location for undergraduate education and some forms of graduate education. Professional law and business degrees do not fall under that category.

You are also mistaken that I'm a Miami guy. I went to Columbia for law school and a private liberal arts college for undergrad. If you go back and read my posts you will note that I've unabashedly stated -- multiple times -- that UF and Miami, outside the T14, are best choices for the Miami market. I've also stated that UF and FSU are both very good law schools. My only correction to your UF is holier than thou posts has been that you are honestly mistaken about placement in South Florida. I only speak on this topic as someone involved in the hiring. UF, as the Dean of the law school even admits, is at a decided disadvantage due to its location. Miami Law has an enormous and robust alumni network in Miami and South Florida. Miami also has a very strong externship program during the academic year with almost no competition -- unlike the summer which is crazy competitive in Miami (lots of people want to be there whether they understand what the city is like or not). The reality is that Miami Law places better than UF in the Miami market but both schools are far and away the leaders over any other school in the state for the South Florida marketplace -- NOT the rest of the state. I've only supported Miami Law as a decision at equal to or reasonably equal to cost for those wanting to work in Miami. Period.

And, for the record, my advice is not bad. You're the one that should heed your own charge: you are screwing with people's future. I would just appreciate you being better informed about law schools in the State of Florida relative to where they place.

I consider this OP to be posting in a genuine manner but do find his selection odd. Given his preferences, and bearing in mind no retake, then ASU is clearly it for California. This doesn't mean ASU Law is a better school than UF Law or vice versa. Did you even read my original response to him?

Kudos on the Billy Madison quote. Have you made a decision yet relative to your own law school decision?

[downinDtown]

That's disappointing to hear Nucky. I actually went to law school, graduated, found employment, and currently sit on a hiring committee. These facts in no way make me any better than the next person. My sincere hope was simply that these experiences might lend some insight into the law school selection process for those willing to be objective and serious about their indecision (admittedly many of these "which school" postings seem specious, or unforgivably naive for a future law student, which often causes me to respond with sarcasm).

Feel free to announce to us which law school you selected so we can all rejoice at your regrettable luck! However, if it's not UF Law then you definitely have some explaining to do...

The back and forth is what makes TLS a great spectator sport...but you just have to be careful not to upset the BigLaw associates....
Btw, Billy Madison's follow-up response to the quote Nucky shared was: "Okay, a simple 'wrong' would've done just fine."

[BigZuck]

I dunno rain, going to ASU and wanting to get a job in CA seems like a really terrible decision. I know someone who tried that (and actually succeeded, eventually). Would not recommend. The ASU student ITT seems to agree.

[w7ldcard]

I don't plan on practicing in California after either of these schools. My expectations are that I will need to be in the state in which I went to school.

[TheSpanishMain]

I don't plan on practicing in California after either of these schools. My expectations are that I will need to be in the state in which I went to school.

I think people are getting confused because you don't mention any ties or history with AZ or FL. It just seems like you picked these schools out of a hat or something. Do you have any compelling ties to either place? Are employers going to wonder who this random dude from CA is, or is there some reason you can articulate for wanting to be in FL/AZ?

[nebula666]

I don't plan on practicing in California after either of these schools. My expectations are that I will need to be in the state in which I went to school.

Then decide whether you'd rather practice in Florida or Arizona and then make your decision based on that. The only difference between these schools is that they are strong regionals that don't travel well.

Also, why not FSU if you want to work in FL? Did UF give you more money?

[acc123]

I did undergrad at UF and I love it there, it was amazing and if you go you will have the best three years of your life. The law school is slacking a little on scholarships, so they might not really work with you but if you can get in-state tuition, which isn't impossible, you can be at like 20k/year in tuition with very low COL in Gainesville if you do it right. Good public transportation and cheap rent abundant. Florida firms love UF, and Gator-haters will tell you otherwise but it is mostly sour grapes and people who think FSU placing a lot of people in government is relevant to larger firm employment numbers. The market is tough right now, but getting better. With that said you still need to work hard and get decent grades to get a decent job, because not everyone does.

Can't speak much for ASU besides saying that they have some fun sports teams to watch really late at night here on the east coast, and that the one time I've been to Arizona it has been hotter than two squirrels mating in a wool sock.

If you can eventually get in-state tuition at UF I would undoubtably go, residency requirements are not awful.

[BigZuck]

I did undergrad at UF and I love it there, it was amazing and if you go you will have the best three years of your life. The law school is slacking a little on scholarships, so they might not really work with you but if you can get in-state tuition, which isn't impossible, you can be at like 20k/year in tuition with very low COL in Gainesville if you do it right. Good public transportation and cheap rent abundant. Florida firms love UF, and Gator-haters will tell you otherwise but it is mostly sour grapes and people who think FSU placing a lot of people in government is relevant to larger firm employment numbers. The market is tough right now, but getting better. With that said you still need to work hard and get decent grades to get a decent job, because not everyone does.

Can't speak much for ASU besides saying that they have some fun sports teams to watch really late at night here on the east coast, and that the one time I've been to Arizona it has been hotter than two squirrels mating in a wool sock.

If you can eventually get in-state tuition at UF I would undoubtably go, residency requirements are not awful.

UF isn't good for large(r) firm employment

[nebula666]

I did undergrad at UF and I love it there, it was amazing and if you go you will have the best three years of your life. The law school is slacking a little on scholarships, so they might not really work with you but if you can get in-state tuition, which isn't impossible, you can be at like 20k/year in tuition with very low COL in Gainesville if you do it right. Good public transportation and cheap rent abundant. Florida firms love UF, and Gator-haters will tell you otherwise but it is mostly sour grapes and people who think FSU placing a lot of people in government is relevant to larger firm employment numbers. The market is tough right now, but getting better. With that said you still need to work hard and get decent grades to get a decent job, because not everyone does.

Can't speak much for ASU besides saying that they have some fun sports teams to watch really late at night here on the east coast, and that the one time I've been to Arizona it has been hotter than two squirrels mating in a wool sock.

If you can eventually get in-state tuition at UF I would undoubtably go, residency requirements are not awful.

UF isn't good for large(r) firm employment

No not really but it's the best law school in the state to have a chance to land one of those jobs. Obviously you shouldn't go to any school in Florida expecting biglaw.