The fact about Racism in Biglaw Forum

[nunumaster]

A better title is "the fundamental problem with diversity in biglaw."

[PepperJack]

If any black applicants or college students see this it's important for them to realize that big law actively tries to hire as many black students as possible (t-14, near median). While it's true that diversity recruiting has dropped disproportionately since 2008 as survival has taken priority to diversity, the underrepresentation in big law comes from the underrepresentation of blacks in top 14's, which comes from the underrepresentation in high LSAT's and high GPA's, which comes from the underrepresentation in college grads. The culprit is educational opportunity, not the firms; they are merely the result. If Harvard Law had more black law students, there'd be more blacks in big law. That's just fact.

[bonquiqui1990]

If any black applicants or college students see this it's important for them to realize that big law actively tries to hire as many black students as possible (t-14, near median). While it's true that diversity recruiting has dropped disproportionately since 2008 as survival has taken priority to diversity, the underrepresentation in big law comes from the underrepresentation of blacks in top 14's, which comes from the underrepresentation in high LSAT's and high GPA's, which comes from the underrepresentation in college grads. The culprit is educational opportunity, not the firms; they are merely the result. If Harvard Law had more black law students, there'd be more blacks in big law. That's just fact.

While true, I think this conclusion from the report is worthy of consideration..

"Thus, changes in the employment of African American professionals in private sector firms required to file EEO-1 reports lagged behind their increase as lawyers in the general work force and in their increased rate of receiving law degrees over the
past twenty years".

[aboutmydaylight]

If any black applicants or college students see this it's important for them to realize that big law actively tries to hire as many black students as possible (t-14, near median). While it's true that diversity recruiting has dropped disproportionately since 2008 as survival has taken priority to diversity, the underrepresentation in big law comes from the underrepresentation of blacks in top 14's, which comes from the underrepresentation in high LSAT's and high GPA's, which comes from the underrepresentation in college grads. The culprit is educational opportunity, not the firms; they are merely the result. If Harvard Law had more black law students, there'd be more blacks in big law. That's just fact.

While this is all true, minorities are underrepresented in top firms more than they're underrepresented in top schools. Even more so at the partner level. For all we know this could be self selection so I'm not here to make a racism argument, but its more complicated than the unavailability of top candidates.

[Pancakes12]

If any black applicants or college students see this it's important for them to realize that big law actively tries to hire as many black students as possible (t-14, near median). While it's true that diversity recruiting has dropped disproportionately since 2008 as survival has taken priority to diversity, the underrepresentation in big law comes from the underrepresentation of blacks in top 14's, which comes from the underrepresentation in high LSAT's and high GPA's, which comes from the underrepresentation in college grads. The culprit is educational opportunity, not the firms; they are merely the result. If Harvard Law had more black law students, there'd be more blacks in big law. That's just fact.

While this is all true, minorities are underrepresented in top firms more than they're underrepresented in top schools. Even more so at the partner level. For all we know this could be self selection so I'm not here to make a racism argument, but its more complicated than the unavailability of top candidates.

Or the fact that they're less likely to graduate with as good of a class rank?

[aboutmydaylight]

If any black applicants or college students see this it's important for them to realize that big law actively tries to hire as many black students as possible (t-14, near median). While it's true that diversity recruiting has dropped disproportionately since 2008 as survival has taken priority to diversity, the underrepresentation in big law comes from the underrepresentation of blacks in top 14's, which comes from the underrepresentation in high LSAT's and high GPA's, which comes from the underrepresentation in college grads. The culprit is educational opportunity, not the firms; they are merely the result. If Harvard Law had more black law students, there'd be more blacks in big law. That's just fact.

While this is all true, minorities are underrepresented in top firms more than they're underrepresented in top schools. Even more so at the partner level. For all we know this could be self selection so I'm not here to make a racism argument, but its more complicated than the unavailability of top candidates.

Or the fact that they're less likely to graduate with as good of a class rank?

Sure, that could be it as well. Though that's another issue in itself.

[TheSpanishMain]

This'll end well.

OP, do you have HYS numbers, or is this just rhetorical?

[Pancakes12]

If any black applicants or college students see this it's important for them to realize that big law actively tries to hire as many black students as possible (t-14, near median). While it's true that diversity recruiting has dropped disproportionately since 2008 as survival has taken priority to diversity, the underrepresentation in big law comes from the underrepresentation of blacks in top 14's, which comes from the underrepresentation in high LSAT's and high GPA's, which comes from the underrepresentation in college grads. The culprit is educational opportunity, not the firms; they are merely the result. If Harvard Law had more black law students, there'd be more blacks in big law. That's just fact.

While this is all true, minorities are underrepresented in top firms more than they're underrepresented in top schools. Even more so at the partner level. For all we know this could be self selection so I'm not here to make a racism argument, but its more complicated than the unavailability of top candidates.

Or the fact that they're less likely to graduate with as good of a class rank?

Sure, that could be it as well. Though that's another issue in itself.

What do you mean by that? Like it's an issue?

[BruceWayne]

If people want to have an educated conversation about this it'd be a good thing because there are a lot of misconceptions about this. But I'll tell you very succinctly: big law is bad for a lot of people--but it's often just plain awful for minorities (mainly Blacks) after the initial awe of the high salary goes away. Further, biglaw firms care VERY little about hiring, and especially retaining, Blacks. Biglaw is not like getting into law school AT ALL in that regard. TONS of Black students at top 14 law schools want biglaw and are uniformly rejected by firms. Frankly, I knew very few Blacks at my top 14 that got biglaw. Biglaw is about making money; and in a lot of ways that doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with having a lot of racial diversity.

[rickgrimes69]

Congrats to the commenters on this post for proving OP's point about racism in the legal community. Y'all should be ashamed of yourselves. I'm frightened if the lawyers of tomorrow don't have the critical thinking and observational skills to check their privilege and acknowledge that racism is still a huge issue.

[PrideandGlory1776]

A better title is "the fundamental problem with diversity in biglaw."

Thank goodness we don't have another "fundamental problem" thread!

[hcrimson2014]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

[bonquiqui1990]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

Is this fucking real?

[hcrimson2014]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

Is this fucking real?

I have a Japanese friend in high school who got rejected from ALL Ivy's with a 2380 and 43 in IB on top of being the valedictorian and starting a successful club raising awareness and funds for homelessness, so you can't help but notice things. I agree that of all the minorities in the US, African Americans and Aboriginals likely suffered the most historical injustices. Unlike some, I actually support affirmative action for amending a historical wrong. However, with all the affirmative actions and diversity requirements in government contracts, you simply cannot argue that African Americans are underrepresented in entry level positions in big law due to prejudice (there are prejudices for sure, but because firms see diversity as an operating target, they are likely going to favour a black candidate of equal caliber regardless of their real feelings). Perhaps African Americans and other minorities are disadvantaged in higher level positions due to discrimination, but that is not true for entry level positions in most fields.

[Learn_Live_Hope]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

Similarly, do you know what it's like to step foot in a male dominated corporate world as a woman? Being a minority in a field is never easy. That doesn't mean you should give up and just let the patterns continue. And today, bringing diversity to the table is typically a good thing.

Well said!…

[heythatslife]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

I say this as an Asian:

That's because Asians were not systematically disenfranchised for over two centuries, idiot. Sure, many Asian immigrants came from poverty and had to start from scratch but that's precisely what put them in a better position than blacks, being able to start from a clean slate. Also many Asian immigrants were educated themselves or at least came from cultures that rewarded education. That sort of emphasis on education cannot arise in an oppressed people who a) were discriminated against in the education system, and b) had limited opportunities even with education.

ETA: Being Asian in America ain't easy either. But it's one thing to fight against prejudices and another to say that blacks are whiny.

[UVAIce]

If people want to have an educated conversation about this it'd be a good thing because there are a lot of misconceptions about this. But I'll tell you very succinctly: big law is bad for a lot of people--but it's often just plain awful for minorities (mainly Blacks) after the initial awe of the high salary goes away. Further, biglaw firms care VERY little about hiring, and especially retaining, Blacks. Biglaw is not like getting into law school AT ALL in that regard. TONS of Black students at top 14 law schools want biglaw and are uniformly rejected by firms. Frankly, I knew very few Blacks at my top 14 that got biglaw. Biglaw is about making money; and in a lot of ways that doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with having a lot of racial diversity.

I call shenanigans BruceWayne. Every black student from my section at UVA has a big law SA lined up. Off the top of my head I thought of the 9 black students that I know well, as in I know what they're doing this summer and about their personal situation, and they all have a big law SA lined up for the summer. I do know a 3L who isn't going into big law per say, but has a pretty prestigious (sweet) gig lined up with a major bank where part of the gig has him transitioning into a big law position after a few years.

I'm not saying it's easy to be black in big law, but I think your statement about big law firms not wanting diversity (at least in an entering associate class) is patently false. Now making partner is a completely different situation. Are there any black managing partners in the vault 100?

Edit: I will say that big law is "bad" for a lot of people. I have also noticed, and this is completely anecdotal, that a lot of my friends from less privileges backgrounds - didn't go to private school growing up, didn't live in the suburbs, don't drive a BMW as a K-JD - care more about being a member of the community than raking in the money. I would be willing to bet that a lot of the high quality black attorneys end up in places like the DOJ, AUSA, etc. This is backed up by zero empirical data or research on my part, so take it with a grain of salt.

[moralsentiments]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

I say this as an Asian:

That's because Asians were not systematically disenfranchised for over two centuries, idiot. Sure, many Asian immigrants came from poverty and had to start from scratch but that's precisely what put them in a better position than blacks, being able to start from a clean slate. Also many Asian immigrants were educated themselves or at least came from cultures that rewarded education. That sort of emphasis on education cannot arise in an oppressed people who a) were discriminated against in the education system, and b) had limited opportunities even with education.

ETA: Being Asian in America ain't easy either. But it's one thing to fight against prejudices and another to say that blacks are whiny.

Food for thought:

From an article by Thomas Sowell referencing a new book called "The Triple Package" by Yale law school professor Amy Chua.

"Despite many who argue that black Americans cannot rise because of racist barriers, black immigrants rise. A majority of the black students at Harvard are from Africa or the Caribbean, and Nigerians "are already markedly overrepresented at Wall Street investment banks and blue-chip law firms.""

"Some immigrant groups have risen spectacularly, even when they arrived here with very little money and sometimes with little knowledge of English. "Almost 25 percent of Nigerian households make over $100,000 a year" in America, the authors point out, compared to just 11 percent of black American households.""

[Jdempewo]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

I say this as an Asian:

That's because Asians were not systematically disenfranchised for over two centuries, idiot. Sure, many Asian immigrants came from poverty and had to start from scratch but that's precisely what put them in a better position than blacks, being able to start from a clean slate. Also many Asian immigrants were educated themselves or at least came from cultures that rewarded education. That sort of emphasis on education cannot arise in an oppressed people who a) were discriminated against in the education system, and b) had limited opportunities even with education.

ETA: Being Asian in America ain't easy either. But it's one thing to fight against prejudices and another to say that blacks are whiny.

your post confuses me a bit. it seems that an emphasis is being put on education if law schools are admitting under represented minority students with lower stats. I have no clue if they award more scholarship money on that basis or provide programs to help minorities succeed. that may be part of the issue. but if your argument is that its because of the education system I don't see any other way to improve what the law schools are already doing.

[worldtraveler]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

I say this as an Asian:

That's because Asians were not systematically disenfranchised for over two centuries, idiot. Sure, many Asian immigrants came from poverty and had to start from scratch but that's precisely what put them in a better position than blacks, being able to start from a clean slate. Also many Asian immigrants were educated themselves or at least came from cultures that rewarded education. That sort of emphasis on education cannot arise in an oppressed people who a) were discriminated against in the education system, and b) had limited opportunities even with education.

ETA: Being Asian in America ain't easy either. But it's one thing to fight against prejudices and another to say that blacks are whiny.

Food for thought:

From an article by Thomas Sowell referencing a new book called "The Triple Package" by Yale law school professor Amy Chua.

"Despite many who argue that black Americans cannot rise because of racist barriers, black immigrants rise. A majority of the black students at Harvard are from Africa or the Caribbean, and Nigerians "are already markedly overrepresented at Wall Street investment banks and blue-chip law firms.""

"Some immigrant groups have risen spectacularly, even when they arrived here with very little money and sometimes with little knowledge of English. "Almost 25 percent of Nigerian households make over $100,000 a year" in America, the authors point out, compared to just 11 percent of black American households.""

Yeah because in general Nigerian immigrants come here with wealth already, so the ones going to law school are the children of professors and doctors who came here on the "expert visas" for the most part. If you're coming from Africa you're either coming as a refugee or as an elite.

They're also coming from a culture in which they weren't a minority, people weren't taught to fear them, they weren't socialized to doubt themselves, and didn't grow up in poverty or in racialized and heavily policed ghettos. This is like asking why people in rural Appalachia can't be as successful as immigrants from Luxembourg because they're both white.

[rickgrimes69]

I agree that of all the minorities in the US, African Americans and Aboriginals likely suffered the most historical injustices.

I, too, weep for the plight of the disenfranchised aboriginals in America.

[nedstarksbastard]

This thread is making me lose faith in humanity.

[heythatslife]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

I say this as an Asian:

That's because Asians were not systematically disenfranchised for over two centuries, idiot. Sure, many Asian immigrants came from poverty and had to start from scratch but that's precisely what put them in a better position than blacks, being able to start from a clean slate. Also many Asian immigrants were educated themselves or at least came from cultures that rewarded education. That sort of emphasis on education cannot arise in an oppressed people who a) were discriminated against in the education system, and b) had limited opportunities even with education.

ETA: Being Asian in America ain't easy either. But it's one thing to fight against prejudices and another to say that blacks are whiny.

your post confuses me a bit. it seems that an emphasis is being put on education if law schools are admitting under represented minority students with lower stats. I have no clue if they award more scholarship money on that basis or provide programs to help minorities succeed. that may be part of the issue. but if your argument is that its because of the education system I don't see any other way to improve what the law schools are already doing.

You are misreading my post. By "emphasis on education" I'm referrimg to that within ethnic communities, not what law schools are doing.

[hcrimson2014]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

I say this as an Asian:

That's because Asians were not systematically disenfranchised for over two centuries, idiot. Sure, many Asian immigrants came from poverty and had to start from scratch but that's precisely what put them in a better position than blacks, being able to start from a clean slate. Also many Asian immigrants were educated themselves or at least came from cultures that rewarded education. That sort of emphasis on education cannot arise in an oppressed people who a) were discriminated against in the education system, and b) had limited opportunities even with education.

ETA: Being Asian in America ain't easy either. But it's one thing to fight against prejudices and another to say that blacks are whiny.

Where did I say being an Asian is easy in the US (Chinese exclusion act anyone)? I am saying that entry level position in the US is so well regulated and monitored in this generation that there is no way big law firms can dismiss an applicant simply because they do not like the colour of his skin.

To your point about Asian starting from a fresh slate, tell me how that translates into anything meaningful in a society where as far as I am aware of, pedigree does not matter until you get into the upper middle or even upper class. Also, as for the emphasis by Asian cultures on education, the point is different cultures emphasize on different things, Asians are a bit conformists while African cultures in general emphasize on individual happiness so who is to say that self selection doesn't account for some/all of the underrepresentation - studying isn't fun and biglaw is not known for its high employee satisfaction rate. Also, it is not America's fault that the African culture does not emphasize on education, African Americans' emphasis in sports and music has brought great success in those fields and couldn't you just accept that people are different and may not all want the same thing.

Finally, Asians, Hispanics, African Americans, and poor White Americans (there are more of them than any of the aforementioned minorities) are a) all discriminated against in the education system and b) all have/had limited opportunities even with education.

[HRomanus]

Does anyone know the statistics for how URMs are represented in top 25% of their graduating classes at law school?