Can Harvard, Yale and Stanford at sticker HURT some? Forum

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Most people on TLS (including me) would not attend H or S at sticker. So by definition many choices are better than that including going to a worse school for free or not going to law school. If my choices were S at sticker or Davis for free and I knew I wanted to be a lawyer I'd choose Davis.

[thesealocust]

The reason better schools are worth more money isn't because you become immune to bad outcomes, it's because they become less likely even if you don't knock 1L out of the park.

Most law students will get around median, which leaves you with options at HYS but in debtor's prison at Davis.

TLS is awful lately

+1

[stephenholder]

Deleted.

[NYSprague]

The reason better schools are worth more money isn't because you become immune to bad outcomes, it's because they become less likely even if you don't knock 1L out of the park.

Most law students will get around median, which leaves you with options at HYS but in debtor's prison at Davis.

TLS is awful lately

+1

Yeah. I think he said Davis for free, which significantly ups the risk of no job but the benefit of only owing cost of living loans ( if you need them.)

Maybe I'm the only person seeing this crazy calculus of debt and potential employment outcomes as being stretched past common sense. I know it is a vast improvement over pre LST days where people couldn't even begun to make appropriate financial decisions.

I'm advocating that people seriously consider not going as a viable option in making this decision.

I'm genuinely sorry if that contributes to TLS being awful.

[mornincounselor]

Post removed.

[Cicero76]

Telling people that they should consider not going to law school is not awful. Telling people about the risks of debt is not awful. Making sure people know about the legal market and the pitfalls involved in law school is not awful. Highlighting the advantages of full scholarships is not awful.

But the growing cacophony on this board lately has reached the point of "OMG HYS WILL RUIN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE DON'T GO!!!" At the point where a website called top-law-schools.com (which is meant to help people get into law school because they want to be lawyers) is aggressively trashing the three best law schools in the country, it's pretty awful. There are less counterproductive ways of preaching the dangers of debt message (cf. Paul Campos).

Seriously, when a 0L starts hearing screeds about how going to Yale can ruin your life, do you think he's gunna take your advice about "should I go to GW sticker or NYLS free" seriously? No, he'll just tune you out.


EDIT: And as TSL said, most people go to HYS because they either want A) close to zero worry about landing some kind of decent job without/r/t law school performance or B) they want to do a unicorn job that is astronomically less likely from any other school. So comparing UC Davis free ---> biglaw to HYS sticker ---> biglaw is like comparing apples to oranges, because it misses the point.

[jk148706]

But the growing cacophony on this board lately has reached the point of "OMG HYS WILL RUIN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE DON'T GO!!!" At the point where a website called top-law-schools.com (which is meant to help people get into law school because they want to be lawyers) is aggressively trashing the three best law schools in the country, it's pretty awful.

From where I sit, that's not what people are saying. Students and practicing attorneys are making the argument that HYS at sticker does not make sense for the vast majority of people. That's precisely because the people who get into HYS are very likely to have good money at CCN and probably full rides or close to it from there down. So the argument (I think) goes that the marginal benefit of going to HYS at sticker does not outweigh going to lower t14 with big money, unless you have a very specific career path that only HYS can help u with.

This is just how I've understood it; someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[truckstop]

again, I understand why HYS students like yourself will be frustrated if you end up in the same firm in the same city with the same pay, then Im not understanding why many HYS students here will not admit that it can HURT some, remember not all but certainly some. A poster above even went as far to say that for the majorty HYS at sticker is not worth it

I'm not an HYS student, though I will be. And I won't be at all frustrated that some people at my firm chose to go to other schools and pay less. Why would I give a damn? Of course that will happen. What do you think, HYS students imagine that there is some sort of tier of firms which only hire HYS grads? All you're saying is that some people at non-HYS will have similar outcomes to some people at HYS. How does that mean anyone was hurt (sorry, HURT) by going to HYS?

As it happens, I think you'd have to be crazy to pay sticker anywhere and finance it entirely with loans, HYS or no. But your post doesn't make any sense at all.

Pearson Spectre historically has only hired HLS graduates. Although there's some anecdotal evidence that if you work for them long-term as a paralegal than go Stanford you might have a shot.

I'm glad someone pointed this out. Although I'd expect Louis to be able to spell Specter correctly (unless it's just to give Harvey a hard time).

[jbagelboy]

again, I understand why HYS students like yourself will be frustrated if you end up in the same firm in the same city with the same pay, then Im not understanding why many HYS students here will not admit that it can HURT some, remember not all but certainly some. A poster above even went as far to say that for the majorty HYS at sticker is not worth it

I'm not an HYS student, though I will be. And I won't be at all frustrated that some people at my firm chose to go to other schools and pay less. Why would I give a damn? Of course that will happen. What do you think, HYS students imagine that there is some sort of tier of firms which only hire HYS grads? All you're saying is that some people at non-HYS will have similar outcomes to some people at HYS. How does that mean anyone was hurt (sorry, HURT) by going to HYS?

As it happens, I think you'd have to be crazy to pay sticker anywhere and finance it entirely with loans, HYS or no. But your post doesn't make any sense at all.

Pearson Spectre historically has only hired HLS graduates. Although there's some anecdotal evidence that if you work for them long-term as a paralegal than go Stanford you might have a shot.

Actually Rachel is going to Columbia

There's a Davis student SA'ing at my office this summer alongside several Harvard students. But I think the Davis student was one of the top five people in his class.

[rayiner]

But the growing cacophony on this board lately has reached the point of "OMG HYS WILL RUIN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE DON'T GO!!!" At the point where a website called top-law-schools.com (which is meant to help people get into law school because they want to be lawyers) is aggressively trashing the three best law schools in the country, it's pretty awful.

From where I sit, that's not what people are saying. Students and practicing attorneys are making the argument that HYS at sticker does not make sense for the vast majority of people. That's precisely because the people who get into HYS are very likely to have good money at CCN and probably full rides or close to it from there down. So the argument (I think) goes that the marginal benefit of going to HYS at sticker does not outweigh going to lower t14 with big money, unless you have a very specific career path that only HYS can help u with.

This is just how I've understood it; someone correct me if I'm wrong.

This is absolutely the case. I think back in the day, HYS at sticker was unchallengable because we didn't have the data. But we have much better data now. If you're in at HYS, Columbia or Chicago will throw a ton of money at you. And while top 10-20% at HYS opens up some really interesting opportunities (feeder clerkship -> SCOTUS -> Solicitor General's Office), the fact is that most students, at least at H, are ending up at the same V15 NYC firms as their Columbia counterparts, maybe after a clerkship. Those folks probably would've been better off with the extra $1000 per month in their pocket.

[deebanger]

so, as many have said in this thread-- HYS at sticker is not worth it for "majority" of the people/ end thread.

[rayiner]

so, as many have said in this thread-- HYS at sticker is not worth it for "majority" of the people/ end thread.

You're leaving out the "when CCN with $$$ is on the table."

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

HYS at sticker hurts some people, yes. I know someone who was a huge splitter (2.9/179) and he went to Stanford at sticker. He did not work very hard, and graduated in the bottom of his class. No job at graduation. Worked document review for three years, while applying to jobs, and just abandoned the law as a profession with 200k+ of non-dischargeable debt. There is no question that if going to Stanford at sticker was a mistake and he has been hurt by the choice. But obviously this is not a common outcome.

[Otunga]

so, as many have said in this thread-- HYS at sticker is not worth it for "majority" of the people/ end thread.

You're leaving out the "when CCN with $$$ is on the table."

Not that I have the ability right now, but with biglaw as the goal, I'd choose t13 with a full over HYS unquestionably. That's supposing no or minimal need based grants at HYS. But is that the common wisdom at this point? Or is it just CCN $$$ that are worth it over HYS?

[californiauser]

so, as many have said in this thread-- HYS at sticker is not worth it for "majority" of the people/ end thread.

I'd be willing to bet the majority (or at least a good chunk) of HYS students have financial situations where they won't necessarily end up paying all 250k back out of pocket in loan repayment...maybe i'm wrong though

[deebanger]

so, as many have said in this thread-- HYS at sticker is not worth it for "majority" of the people/ end thread.

I'd be willing to bet the majority (or at least a good chunk) of HYS students have financial situations where they won't necessarily end up paying all 250k back out of pocket in loan repayment...maybe i'm wrong though

true, and for many taking in 250,000-300,000 it will even be worth it in the long run, I will totally admit that. But for that HYS student in 250,000-300,000 debt who gets your average big law gig, Im not sure how he would feel when he sees another associate sitting next to him who started to work at the same firm at the same day but has 0 debt as he went to a local school. So, all I am saying is in certain situations, yes HYS can be worth it, but Im not sure why HYS students are so adamant that they are not admitting that it can hurt them also in certain situations especially in the short run. (when so many posters here have admitted that).

[Gary]

so, as many have said in this thread-- HYS at sticker is not worth it for "majority" of the people/ end thread.

I'd be willing to bet the majority (or at least a good chunk) of HYS students have financial situations where they won't necessarily end up paying all 250k back out of pocket in loan repayment...maybe i'm wrong though

true, and for many taking in 250,000-300,000 it will even be worth it in the long run, I will totally admit that. But for that HYS student in 250,000-300,000 debt who gets your average big law gig, Im not sure how he would feel when he sees another associate sitting next to him who started to work at the same firm at the same day but has 0 debt as he went to a local school. So, all I saying in certain situations, yes HYS can be worth it, but Im not sure why HYS students are so adamant that they are not admitting that it can hurt them also in certain situations especially in the short run.

Dude you have extremely selective hearing.

[bjsesq]

so, as many have said in this thread-- HYS at sticker is not worth it for "majority" of the people/ end thread.

I'd be willing to bet the majority (or at least a good chunk) of HYS students have financial situations where they won't necessarily end up paying all 250k back out of pocket in loan repayment...maybe i'm wrong though

true, and for many taking in 250,000-300,000 it will even be worth it in the long run, I will totally admit that. But for that HYS student in 250,000-300,000 debt who gets your average big law gig, Im not sure how he would feel when he sees another associate sitting next to him who started to work at the same firm at the same day but has 0 debt as he went to a local school. So, all I saying in certain situations, yes HYS can be worth it, but Im not sure why HYS students are so adamant that they are not admitting that it can hurt them also in certain situations especially in the short run.

Dude you have extremely selective hearing.

This. Jesus christ.

[Cicero76]

I don't know where people get this idea that all HYS students have massive money options at the t6 and t10. My offers at those schools were downright paltry, and I don't think I was the only one. In fact I would say it's pretty average for generic HYS kids to max out at 50-80k at CCN with their 173/3.8 that scraped them into HYS median territory. Those schools aren't offering hundreds of Rubies and Hamiltons to every HYS qualified candidate.

And there's just no way in hell I would go to Duke or UVA over HYS, regardless of money. I'm sure some would, but it's not a slam dunk

[jk148706]

Those schools aren't offering hundreds of Rubies and Hamiltons to every HYS qualified candidate.

Don't think anyone is saying that. They are saying at least some money at CCN and farther down the t14 even more $$$, which takes us to this:

And there's just no way in hell I would go to Duke or UVA over HYS, regardless of money.

Which, IMO, seems crazy. But I don't have those options anyway. I'm a 0L. And my career goals are biglaw. I guess if u have different goals, maybe HYS makes sense?

[DrStudMuffin]

I don't know where people get this idea that all HYS students have massive money options at the t6 and t10. My offers at those schools were downright paltry, and I don't think I was the only one. In fact I would say it's pretty average for generic HYS kids to max out at 50-80k at CCN with their 173/3.8 that scraped them into HYS median territory. Those schools aren't offering hundreds of Rubies and Hamiltons to every HYS qualified candidate.

Yeah, this. And unless your goals are just generic NYC/Chicago (for U of C) biglaw, HYS are generally worth more than that amount, in my opinion. Full ride to a lower T-14 is murkier, and at that point things really depend on the individual and their goals.

[rayiner]

I don't know where people get this idea that all HYS students have massive money options at the t6 and t10. My offers at those schools were downright paltry, and I don't think I was the only one. In fact I would say it's pretty average for generic HYS kids to max out at 50-80k at CCN with their 173/3.8 that scraped them into HYS median territory. Those schools aren't offering hundreds of Rubies and Hamiltons to every HYS qualified candidate.

Yeah, this. And unless your goals are just generic NYC/Chicago (for U of C) biglaw, HYS are generally worth more than that amount, in my opinion. Full ride to a lower T-14 is murkier, and at that point things really depend on the individual and their goals.

I understand people may have different goals, but the fact of the matter is that most grads, at least at H, end up in generic big law. If you want NYC big law, and don't get WLRK, you're pretty much in the same boat as a CCN grad at Cleary Swaine & Bartlett.

[DrStudMuffin]

I don't know where people get this idea that all HYS students have massive money options at the t6 and t10. My offers at those schools were downright paltry, and I don't think I was the only one. In fact I would say it's pretty average for generic HYS kids to max out at 50-80k at CCN with their 173/3.8 that scraped them into HYS median territory. Those schools aren't offering hundreds of Rubies and Hamiltons to every HYS qualified candidate.

Yeah, this. And unless your goals are just generic NYC/Chicago (for U of C) biglaw, HYS are generally worth more than that amount, in my opinion. Full ride to a lower T-14 is murkier, and at that point things really depend on the individual and their goals.

I understand people may have different goals, but the fact of the matter is that most grads, at least at H, end up in generic big law. If you want NYC big law, and don't get WLRK, you're pretty much in the same boat as a CCN grad at Cleary Swaine & Bartlett.

By that I just meant biglaw in NYC/Chicago. The sense I've gotten is that HYS are distinctly better than CCN in the vast majority of secondary/tertiary markets.

[aboutmydaylight]

I'm in at HS and only 1 other school has even offered me $.

[californiauser]

I don't know where people get this idea that all HYS students have massive money options at the t6 and t10. My offers at those schools were downright paltry, and I don't think I was the only one. In fact I would say it's pretty average for generic HYS kids to max out at 50-80k at CCN with their 173/3.8 that scraped them into HYS median territory. Those schools aren't offering hundreds of Rubies and Hamiltons to every HYS qualified candidate.

Yeah, this. And unless your goals are just generic NYC/Chicago (for U of C) biglaw, HYS are generally worth more than that amount, in my opinion. Full ride to a lower T-14 is murkier, and at that point things really depend on the individual and their goals.

I understand people may have different goals, but the fact of the matter is that most grads, at least at H, end up in generic big law. If you want NYC big law, and don't get WLRK, you're pretty much in the same boat as a CCN grad at Cleary Swaine & Bartlett.

By that I just meant biglaw in NYC/Chicago. The sense I've gotten is that HYS are distinctly better than CCN in the vast majority of secondary/tertiary markets.

Yeah, true, but when you break it down you're paying 275k+ (now) for the privilege of working for someone else...it just really doesn't make any logical or financial sense