The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers Forum

[jk148706]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house?

Also interested.

[TheSpanishMain]

Again, I think most of OP's argument is all just a straw man. Where are the threads of actual grads telling people not to go to law school, saying that the life of a lawyer sucks too much? If you actually asked the grads on here, I think the vast majority would say they are relatively happy in their jobs thus far.

The only times I've seen flat out "don't go" is when A) the person's school choice/debt load is unrealistic for their goals and they won't retake or B) the person is so obviously dim that it's unlikely they'll ever have a good offer: hay u guyz i did a 2.2 in collage and i got a 134 on my LSASS where shud I go to law scol?

[burtsbees]

Again, I think most of OP's argument is all just a straw man. Where are the threads of actual grads telling people not to go to law school, saying that the life of a lawyer sucks too much? If you actually asked the grads on here, I think the vast majority would say they are relatively happy in their jobs thus far.

I'm referring to this argument. Is this a straw man to you?

Post subject: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

"You can't tell 0L's not to go to law school or at least not to take on debt to do so. Take an article like this: http://www.rosestreet.net/?p=28. 0L's will ignore him because "he sounds bitter." They don't want to listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out badly.

At the same time, they won't listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out well. When associates at big law firms tell them not to go, they say "he's a hypocrite." They don't want to hear from somebody who went to law school and won the dice roll."

[anyriotgirl]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house?

Also interested.

tag on the off chance someone has an answer

[californiauser]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house?

Also interested.

tag on the off chance someone has an answer

paralegal, plumber, welder, car salesman, garbageman, human resources, office manager, etc. can all make 60k+ eventually

[TheSpanishMain]

Again, I think most of OP's argument is all just a straw man. Where are the threads of actual grads telling people not to go to law school, saying that the life of a lawyer sucks too much? If you actually asked the grads on here, I think the vast majority would say they are relatively happy in their jobs thus far.

I'm referring to this argument. Is this a straw man to you?

Post subject: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

"You can't tell 0L's not to go to law school or at least not to take on debt to do so. Take an article like this: http://www.rosestreet.net/?p=28. 0L's will ignore him because "he sounds bitter." They don't want to listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out badly.

At the same time, they won't listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out well. When associates at big law firms tell them not to go, they say "he's a hypocrite." They don't want to hear from somebody who went to law school and won the dice roll."

Just because the right advice for SOME 0Ls might be "don't go" doesn't mean it's the right advice for all or even most 0Ls.

[jk148706]

.

[Otunga]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house?

Also interested.

tag on the off chance someone has an answer

paralegal, plumber, welder, car salesman, garbageman, human resources, office manager, etc. can all make 60k+ eventually

Is credited advice then to become a paralegal over attending a low-ranked school?

[burtsbees]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house?

Also interested.

tag on the off chance someone has an answer

Go work in any BS back-office corporate job in the Midwest. HR will do the trick. So will operations finance. You can buy a 4 bedroom house for less than $150k.

[anyriotgirl]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house?

Also interested.

tag on the off chance someone has an answer

paralegal, plumber, welder, car salesman, garbageman, human resources, office manager, etc. can all make 60k+ eventually

paralegal - you can pick 9-5 or 60k, but you can't have both.
trade stuff - huge flame. very dependent on how much construction is going on in your city and takes a huge toll on your body. Also you need a degree of natural ability. Usually pretty difficult to get your union card.
HR - okay maybe. but HR ugh
office manger - okay this is a good job, but it takes years and some luck to get here.

[californiauser]

Is credited advice then to become a paralegal over attending a low-ranked school?

No doubt. Most TTTs will only end up making low to mid 5 figures anyway. Why take on the debt to do so?

[TheSpanishMain]

If you just want a reasonable standard of living with job security, the correct answer is enlist in the military at 18, do twenty years, collect pension at 38. Get non-strenuous, non-preftigious government gig in a relatively low cost of living area. Say, sort mail at the post office in a medium sized city in the Midwest. Do that till you retire at 63. Enjoy your two pensions. You won't be living a baller lifestyle by any means, but you'll have a reasonably nice house/condo and be comfortably able to put food on the table and gas in the car.

[burtsbees]

paralegal - you can pick 9-5 or 60k, but you can't have both.
trade stuff - huge flame. very dependent on how much construction is going on in your city and takes a huge toll on your body. Also you need a degree of natural ability. Usually pretty difficult to get your union card.
HR - okay maybe. but HR ugh
office manger - okay this is a good job, but it takes years and some luck to get here.

Exactly. This is my point. If you're satisfied with an average, boring job, then ok, don't go to law school. But no practicing attorney on this board was satisfied with an average, boring job. These people shouldn't be complaining about how dull or tough working in a law firm is, like the poor bloke in the link from "The fundamental problem with 0L's" thread.

[sah]

Actually, I take it back. A friend of mine just landed a $100k, super secure, plus 9-5 at a great company.

She got a (free!) PhD in Biomolecular Engineering. That's called winning at life.

[d cooper]

Wow. What a train-wreck.

This "T5 or non-T5 for free" schtick is actually far more restrictive and punitive than the positions advocated by any of the practicing attorneys on this board.

+1

[TelegramSam]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house?

Also interested.

tag on the off chance someone has an answer

Go work in any BS back-office corporate job in the Midwest. HR will do the trick. So will operations finance. You can buy a 4 bedroom house for less than $150k.

Ohhh. Now I feel bad for shitting on your thread. I didn't realize you were retarded

[californiauser]

paralegal - you can pick 9-5 or 60k, but you can't have both.
trade stuff - huge flame. very dependent on how much construction is going on in your city and takes a huge toll on your body. Also you need a degree of natural ability. Usually pretty difficult to get your union card.
HR - okay maybe. but HR ugh
office manger - okay this is a good job, but it takes years and some luck to get here.

In my metro paralegals are making 75k+ with 10 years experience. Pretty good imo

[Jdempewo]

This is a bit extreme but what I will say is that while a lot of biglaw associates (correctly) mock 0Ls for being naive about what the profession/debt entail, there are plenty of biglaw associates (many of them K-JDs) who are ironically a bit naive about what options exist in 2014 for your typical liberal arts college grad (i.e., the type of person most likely to apply to law school). Hint: they often aren't great. LOL at 60k. More like 35k.

There are some logical flaws in his argument, but I do think he's spot on in many respects. Work life in general sucks. A lot of people (many practicing lawyers on this board) fail to recognize that. It's all about going in with the right attitude and perspective- hence why I think previous work experience is so important.

Yeah. I had 3+ years of work experience that required 50-60 hours per week and basically on call 24/7. If news broke, I had to go cover it. And I made <$30k. And I was considered good outcome. Working life just blows sometimes.

Again, I think most of OP's argument is all just a straw man. Where are the threads of actual grads telling people not to go to law school, saying that the life of a lawyer sucks too much? If you actually asked the grads on here, I think the vast majority would say they are relatively happy in their jobs thus far.

I think ops referring to the thread titled the fundamental problem with 0L's, hence the title.

[buffalo_]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house?

Also interested.

tag on the off chance someone has an answer

paralegal, plumber, welder, car salesman, garbageman, human resources, office manager, etc. can all make 60k+ eventually

I was a LAC grad. I worked for a big regional company in a back-office support role. I started at about 50k. I work in a non-major city, but a large regional city. You can EASILY buy and awesome house here on my salary. Houses in my market go for between 150k-200k. I know people who only pay $800-$1000/month on a 15 year mortgage for their houses.

If you can't find these jobs, it is probably because you are looking in a major metro area. It's all about location. Look for cities with <500k people in the city proper or around 1 million in their greater metro area.

The problem many have is that companies in these cities really want you to have a tie to their small city so they know you won't leave.

[CaveCanem]

Bravo OP.

[KatyMarie]

This is a bit extreme but what I will say is that while a lot of biglaw associates (correctly) mock 0Ls for being naive about what the profession/debt entail, there are plenty of biglaw associates (many of them K-JDs) who are ironically a bit naive about what options exist in 2014 for your typical liberal arts college grad (i.e., the type of person most likely to apply to law school). Hint: they often aren't great. LOL at 60k. More like 35k.

Yeah, at a minimum, they don't realize how they sound to someone trying to live off of minimum wage with a completely useless liberal arts degree. When practicing lawyers on here complain about how hard it is to pay off debt while they're making 160k a year, that struggle is not going to translate to someone who just borrowed 40 bucks from their neighbor to pay the electricity bill before they cut the power off.

I'm not even saying they aren't right. I'm sure seeing so much of your salary that you work hard for going getting immediately taken away to pay off debt is frustrating and disheartening, and I'm sure every 0L underestimates what that feels like to varying degrees.

I am saying that they should try a little harder to understand what challenges/life situations 0Ls are already facing and be more rational about the available options.

[jimbeam21]

Go work in any BS back-office corporate job in the Midwest. HR will do the trick. So will operations finance. You can buy a 4 bedroom house for less than $150k.

Ohhh. Now I feel bad for shitting on your thread. I didn't realize you were retarded

Funny thing is, OP is right. You can actually buy a 4-bedroom in Indiana for less than $150k.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7106- ... 9730_zpid/

That doesn't mean I'm changing my plans and moving to the Midwest though. That is, unless it comes with a trashy average looking wife.

[twenty]

At the risk of sounding like "lol bootstrap" I think some of the fatalistic hysteria on TLS is a bit much. My high school years were spent working 20ish hours on the weekends pouring concrete foundations in 95+ degree heat. Talk about competitive -- to get called back to another assignment, I competed with a bunch of illegal immigrants that would work with no lunch/potty breaks for half of what I would work for. I accidentally walked up on a Mexican guy taking a poo in an alleyway who begged me not to tell the project supervisor. At the point where holding it in is the norm, that kind of puts a whole new spin on "shitty work."

I would happily take four years of undergrad + three years of law school + three years of paying off debt with biglaw just to break even over pretty much any job where I have to build/repair/load/demolish shit. Post biglaw is at least 80k/yr in a practice. Post BIGDITCHDIGGING is like "oh, you have experience? You're probably an insurance liability then. Hit the bricks mfer."

[kalvano]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house?

Also interested.

tag on the off chance someone has an answer

paralegal, plumber, welder, car salesman, garbageman, human resources, office manager, etc. can all make 60k+ eventually

You should happily go to law school before doing that job. It is also 100% not 9-5. More like 8-8, 6 days a week.

[worldtraveler]

This is a bit extreme but what I will say is that while a lot of biglaw associates (correctly) mock 0Ls for being naive about what the profession/debt entail, there are plenty of biglaw associates (many of them K-JDs) who are ironically a bit naive about what options exist in 2014 for your typical liberal arts college grad (i.e., the type of person most likely to apply to law school). Hint: they often aren't great. LOL at 60k. More like 35k.

Yeah, at a minimum, they don't realize how they sound to someone trying to live off of minimum wage with a completely useless liberal arts degree. When practicing lawyers on here complain about how hard it is to pay off debt while they're making 160k a year, that struggle is not going to translate to someone who just borrowed 40 bucks from their neighbor to pay the electricity bill before they cut the power off.

I'm not even saying they aren't right. I'm sure seeing so much of your salary that you work hard for going getting immediately taken away to pay off debt is frustrating and disheartening, and I'm sure every 0L underestimates what that feels like to varying degrees.

I am saying that they should try a little harder to understand what challenges/life situations 0Ls are already facing and be more rational about the available options.

There are law grads who have to borrow 40 bucks so the electricity doesn't get cut off.