The fundamental problem with 0L's. Forum

[rayiner]

Everything else aside, I don't see why the article linked to is something 0Ls particularly need to know and accept. Biglaw is up or out, everyone knows that. Most lawyers don't become biglaw partners, everyone knows that. His not advancing (being fired) actually sounds lot more fair than some other stories I've heard. By his own admission he wasn't going out of his way for work, wasn't particularly enthusiastic about the job, and didn't have an adversarial mindset. Then he got fired, in a system where 50%+ of people are fired, for not going out of his way for work, not being particularly enthusiastic about the job, and not having an adversarial mindset.

If anything I think something like this would encourage 0Ls to apply. It practically begs for a special snowflake reply.

People don't get up or outed as a third year at a place like DPW. The firm has every incentive to keep you around as a profitable mid level. The 50% three year attrition is almost all voluntary. That's the sobering fact. That's what 0L's should take away from this story. That someone can gun hard enough to get into a T14, gun hard senough to make top 10-25% and get a job at DPW, and still not have it in them to put up with the job for three years, even getting paid $185k+bonus. The fact that the guy got stealthed instead of burning out and quitting is an irrelevant detail. He got fire because he couldn't even pretend to care about the job in the aftermath of a recession.

[Theopliske8711]

Looked online, and I think this guy is an HLS graduate.

[Captain Rodeo]

Dang, some vicious responses.

However, thanks for clearing up the 2009-status of things, because I thought the same thing as sublime

[rad lulz]

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[jlamb555]

You can't tell 0L's not to go to law school or at least not to take on debt to do so. Take an article like this: http://www.rosestreet.net/?p=28. 0L's will ignore him because "he sounds bitter." They don't want to listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out badly.

At the same time, they won't listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out well. When associates at big law firms tell them not to go, they say "he's a hypocrite." They don't want to hear from somebody who went to law school and won the dice roll.

For half of everyone, law school will not lead to gainful employment. Among the other half, 80% will not get a big firm that justifies the crippling debt. Of those who do get big law, half will leave or be pushed out within three years, long before paying off loans.

I'm not down on the legal profession. I love being a lawyer. But the debt is crippling, and only a small fraction of outcomes will justify the debt.

There's no doubt that law school is a bad idea for many prospective law students but there are also a few things that seem important to address.

First, a great paradox exists that many older attorneys advise people not to attend law school. And, at the same time, the large majority of these individuals have stable, well-paying jobs. At least in comparison to where they would be now if they had not attended law school. Certainly graduates from the last 7-8 years have faced awful conditions but that largely seems to be a function of the worst economic period since the Great Depression. There are also a great deal of terrible law schools that exist now which should not.

Secondly, it is very hard to tell how much of the negative attitude among current attorneys is due to personality. It seems to me that an extremely disproportionate number of prospective law students are the type of people who are destined to hate any field they pursue. The characteristics of self-hatred and misery are already apparent in so many of these people even before beginning law school. Of course these types of people are going to hate the legal profession.

[IAFG]

You can't tell 0L's not to go to law school or at least not to take on debt to do so. Take an article like this: http://www.rosestreet.net/?p=28. 0L's will ignore him because "he sounds bitter." They don't want to listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out badly.

At the same time, they won't listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out well. When associates at big law firms tell them not to go, they say "he's a hypocrite." They don't want to hear from somebody who went to law school and won the dice roll.

For half of everyone, law school will not lead to gainful employment. Among the other half, 80% will not get a big firm that justifies the crippling debt. Of those who do get big law, half will leave or be pushed out within three years, long before paying off loans.

I'm not down on the legal profession. I love being a lawyer. But the debt is crippling, and only a small fraction of outcomes will justify the debt.

There's no doubt that law school is a bad idea for many prospective law students but there are also a few things that seem important to address.

First, a great paradox exists that many older attorneys advise people not to attend law school. And, at the same time, the large majority of these individuals have stable, well-paying jobs. At least in comparison to where they would be now if they had not attended law school. Certainly graduates from the last 7-8 years have faced awful conditions but that largely seems to be a function of the worst economic period since the Great Depression. There are also a great deal of terrible law schools that exist now which should not.

Secondly, it is very hard to tell how much of the negative attitude among current attorneys is due to personality. It seems to me that an extremely disproportionate number of prospective law students are the type of people who are destined to hate any field they pursue. The characteristics of self-hatred and misery are already apparent in so many of these people even before beginning law school. Of course these types of people are going to hate the legal profession.

Don't you sorta wonder tho why someone with a stable, well-paying job would tell you not to follow behind them?

Listen, I don't regret LS. But I do think I had some very naive ideas about what working at a firm would be like. Now I just laugh when I see people speculate that they'll stay at a firm 5 years and pay off their loans. Most people won't pull that off. And they were ALREADY the pool of special snowflakes.

[A. Nony Mouse]

There's no doubt that law school is a bad idea for many prospective law students but there are also a few things that seem important to address.

First, a great paradox exists that many older attorneys advise people not to attend law school. And, at the same time, the large majority of these individuals have stable, well-paying jobs. At least in comparison to where they would be now if they had not attended law school. Certainly graduates from the last 7-8 years have faced awful conditions but that largely seems to be a function of the worst economic period since the Great Depression. There are also a great deal of terrible law schools that exist now which should not.

So what's the take away from this for 0Ls? Is this countering the argument that many of them shouldn't go? How?

Secondly, it is very hard to tell how much of the negative attitude among current attorneys is due to personality. It seems to me that an extremely disproportionate number of prospective law students are the type of people who are destined to hate any field they pursue. The characteristics of self-hatred and misery are already apparent in so many of these people even before beginning law school. Of course these types of people are going to hate the legal profession.

What's your evidence for this?

[84651846190]

this needs to be stickied

[jlamb555]

Don't you sorta wonder tho why someone with a stable, well-paying job would tell you not to follow behind them?

Some legal jobs suck. But I think my second aspect contributes to it.

[rayiner]

You can't tell 0L's not to go to law school or at least not to take on debt to do so. Take an article like this: http://www.rosestreet.net/?p=28. 0L's will ignore him because "he sounds bitter." They don't want to listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out badly.

At the same time, they won't listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out well. When associates at big law firms tell them not to go, they say "he's a hypocrite." They don't want to hear from somebody who went to law school and won the dice roll.

For half of everyone, law school will not lead to gainful employment. Among the other half, 80% will not get a big firm that justifies the crippling debt. Of those who do get big law, half will leave or be pushed out within three years, long before paying off loans.

I'm not down on the legal profession. I love being a lawyer. But the debt is crippling, and only a small fraction of outcomes will justify the debt.

There's no doubt that law school is a bad idea for many prospective law students but there are also a few things that seem important to address.

First, a great paradox exists that many older attorneys advise people not to attend law school. And, at the same time, the large majority of these individuals have stable, well-paying jobs. At least in comparison to where they would be now if they had not attended law school. Certainly graduates from the last 7-8 years have faced awful conditions but that largely seems to be a function of the worst economic period since the Great Depression. There are also a great deal of terrible law schools that exist now which should not.

Secondly, it is very hard to tell how much of the negative attitude among current attorneys is due to personality. It seems to me that an extremely disproportionate number of prospective law students are the type of people who are destined to hate any field they pursue. The characteristics of self-hatred and misery are already apparent in so many of these people even before beginning law school. Of course these types of people are going to hate the legal profession.

Selection bias. Prospective law students just see the older successful attorneys. Older successful attorneys know all the people from their law school that graduated jobless, the people who washed out of a firm after a couple or years, the people who were passed over for partner and never really got back on their feet. Potential law students never see those people, or ignore them as just being bitter.

I'm not saying you can't be happy working at a big law firm. Most partners I've met like their job. But they're the 10-20% that are left of the 10% that got their foot in the door at a big law firm to begin with. There are people who are really suited for the lifestyle. Any given prospective law student is unlikely to be in that group.

I'm not saying nobody should ever go to law school. I'm saying too many people go for the wrong reasons, and too many people take on debt that requires them to get a big law job they won't like. And thats true even for Harvard grads that get a V5 job.

[84651846190]

First, a great paradox exists that many older attorneys advise people not to attend law school. And, at the same time, the large majority of these individuals have stable, well-paying jobs.

There are no "stable" jobs in law these days. Hell, the partners who make the most at big law firms are often the primary targets of downsizing recently.

[IAFG]

Don't you sorta wonder tho why someone with a stable, well-paying job would tell you not to follow behind them?

Some legal jobs suck. But I think my second aspect contributes to it.

Maybe it does. or maybe private practice actually is that shitty. actually truly so horrible people who have gunned every aspect of their life their whole lives can't even force themselves to keep going in every day to combat their crushing debt.

The truth is, the most miserable, self-hating people are the ones who hang on long enough to become your boss.

[anyriotgirl]

Question for the attorneys ITT who do regret law school. If you didn't go to law school, what would you have done instead?

[Hipster but Athletic]

What a stupid premise. "The problem with the people who self-identify as intending to go to law school won't listen to me because they are stubborn and naiive about intending to go to law school!"

[aboutmydaylight]

A story about a dude whose a self described shitty attorney, leaving his office before 5, and generally not giving a shit, being politely asked to leave his firm with a 3 month notice in 2009 hardly says anything.

[rad lulz]

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[Mal Reynolds]

A story about a dude whose a self described shitty attorney, leaving his office before 5, and generally not giving a shit, being politely asked to leave his firm with a 3 month notice in 2009 hardly says anything.

Special fucking snowflakes man.

[kalvano]

Double Billing: A Young Lawyer's Tale Of Greed, Sex, Lies, And The Pursuit Of A Swivel Chair by Cameron Stracher.

This was written back when times were really, really good, but it's still largely accurate. If you want an inside look at big firm life from a non-bitter standpoint, pick up this book.

Hint - he still doesn't like it.

[Johann]

Question for the attorneys ITT who do regret law school. If you didn't go to law school, what would you have done instead?

A classmate with my same major that was not related to sciences went back to school for 2 years and got an engineering degree. That would have been an awesome choice. I'd take a bullshit office job and try to get some experience and really think about a way to become an office manager of some sort. I'd apply to compliance jobs in the closest city. I'd apply to be a paralegal at a law firm to see what law is remotely like. I'd learn how to program and code on my own with free internet resources during my spare time while living at home. Tech jobs do not give a shit about education. Any of those would have been great, especially the tech and engineering jobs.

[L’Étranger]

0L opinions on quality of life in big law firms are especially bad.

What professions as a whole (i.e. not just in individual cases) offer the same pay with better quality life?

Edit: Never mind. Missed the point of the thread.

LOL

You are the point of the thread, brother.

No. I was actually trying to make a different point myself. I start as an associate in the fall. I expect that being an associate is going to be demanding as are the majority of jobs that I know of that offer this kind of compensation.

The post I was quoting implied to me that the poster's own quality of life expectation did not match up to the reality of being an associate. It seems hypocritical to rip on 0Ls for expecting the job to be any different than I surmise the poster I was quoting expected it to be.

...then I realized that the whole thread was only half-serious.

[aboutmydaylight]

A story about a dude whose a self described shitty attorney, leaving his office before 5, and generally not giving a shit, being politely asked to leave his firm with a 3 month notice in 2009 hardly says anything.

Special fucking snowflakes man.

This site is so enamored with downside risk its hilarious. Yes, literally everyone becomes this guy. If not, you're a special snowflake.

And then everyone spends thousands of threads/comments wondering why no one actually listens to good advice and why credible people are completely ignored.

[rad lulz]

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[cotiger]

I have no idea why anyone would voluntarily put themselves in 300k of debt.

Before I had ever heard of TLS or LST or knew any of the financial details of law school, I decided that the absolute maximum debt I was willing to take out was however much I could pay back in two years of firm work.

The more time I spend on TLS, the more convinced I am that most people choose Harvard (or whatever prestige thing) primarily for the sense of validation that comes with it. Vague talk about opening doors, job security, geographic flexibility, exit options, etc from people who don't actually know what they're talking about (includes 0Ls AND current students) seems like pretty obvious rationalization for just doing what their egos wanted to do all along.

I used to have a desire to warn people away from this 200-300k debt nonsense, but now I kinda just say fuck it. Prestige whores gunna prestige whore. Someone wants to spend way more money than they or their family have in order to show off a Harvard degree/Ferrari/McMansion? Go for it. But I DGAF about the self-imposed plight of their high debt.

Caveat: Low SES people contemplating paying sticker at Mercer are obviously still worthy of saving.

[Mal Reynolds]

A story about a dude whose a self described shitty attorney, leaving his office before 5, and generally not giving a shit, being politely asked to leave his firm with a 3 month notice in 2009 hardly says anything.

Special fucking snowflakes man.

This site is so enamored with downside risk its hilarious. Yes, literally everyone becomes this guy. If not, you're a special snowflake.

And then everyone spends thousands of threads/comments wondering why no one actually listens to good advice and why credible people are completely ignored.

It's like the OP predicted this exact poast

It's pretty wonderful actually. To see the mental gymnastics.

[gaud]

Just lol