Columbia $$ vs Chicago $$$ Forum

[UnicornHunter]

Why not negotiate with CLS?

I've heard from somewhere (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&start=25)
that in NYC biglaw, Columbia is the next best option after HY, even slightly better than Stanford.
So I don't think NYC biglaw prospects are equal for Columbia and Chicago.

But obviously debt sucks. So Ruby is the more financially sound option, but if your heart has been set on Columbia, choosing Columbia here would be understandable too.

Harvard, Columbia, Stanford, UChicago all "place" equally well into top firms. Columbia and Harvard have substantially higher #'s at V20's even adjusted for class size - and I think breaking it down, CLS actually takes the overall edge for top firms in terms of summer classes (although since most Yale students have their pick, they are kind of on a different level). It's just that many fewer SLS and Chi kids are targeting NYC than the Harvard and Columbia.

Anyway, OP: it would be objectively ridiculous to take Columbia over the Ruby here unless you have something else tying you to NYC. That being said, I disagree with other posters that the Rubenstein is superior to a full ride at CLS if you really want to be in New York.

Then again, half ride from Columbia is nothing to scoff at, and to be honest a lot of CLS students turn down $ at Chi or Penn to attend. I'm not going to advise you to make the choice to take Columbia here on it's face, but aside from what most of TLS will tell you, you wouldn't be alone in making it.

What I heard (if you bothered to click the link) was what some partners in NYC said about schools, assuming what the poster on that page (HLS20..something) said is true. I'd not draw conclusions about prospects based solely on figures.

And at equal cost Columbia.... might.... be a better bet than Chicago for NYC firms. However, it is literally impossible to get Columbia to equal cost vs the Ruby. This one should be easy, unless living in NYC during law school is worth $100,000 to OP.

[jbagelboy]

Why not negotiate with CLS?

I've heard from somewhere (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&start=25)
that in NYC biglaw, Columbia is the next best option after HY, even slightly better than Stanford.
So I don't think NYC biglaw prospects are equal for Columbia and Chicago.

But obviously debt sucks. So Ruby is the more financially sound option, but if your heart has been set on Columbia, choosing Columbia here would be understandable too.

Harvard, Columbia, Stanford, UChicago all "place" equally well into top firms. Columbia and Harvard have substantially higher #'s at V20's even adjusted for class size - and I think breaking it down, CLS actually takes the overall edge for top firms in terms of summer classes (although since most Yale students have their pick, they are kind of on a different level). It's just that many fewer SLS and Chi kids are targeting NYC than the Harvard and Columbia.

Anyway, OP: it would be objectively ridiculous to take Columbia over the Ruby here unless you have something else tying you to NYC. That being said, I disagree with other posters that the Rubenstein is superior to a full ride at CLS if you really want to be in New York.

Then again, half ride from Columbia is nothing to scoff at, and to be honest a lot of CLS students turn down $ at Chi or Penn to attend. I'm not going to advise you to make the choice to take Columbia here on it's face, but aside from what most of TLS will tell you, you wouldn't be alone in making it.

What I heard (if you bothered to click the link) was what some partners in NYC said about schools, assuming what the poster on that page (HLS20..something) said is true. I'd not draw conclusions about prospects based solely on figures.

I actually had gone through that link, and I find much of the information quite inaccurate - for example, the person who cited EIP offer rates. CLS last year was 86%. That person was not getting great advise.

First, I trust the statistics a hell of a lot more than what a TLS poster said about anecdotal conversations four years ago (in what was admittedly a different market, where SLS was providing heightened job security for bottom quarter).
Second, just this spring, I've had probably nearly 100 conversations with partners from prestigious NYC firms. That's what you do at firm events as a law student. On the subject of "which school is preferred", it does vary - for example, many firms say CLS is their top feeder, but that doesn't tell you about cutoff rates (just because more CLS kids get offers doesn't mean it's not easier from Yale). When comparing to Chicago and Stanford, top firms will draw from a similar place in the class as CLS - one weakness might be inability to network for the extra edge, but this impact is probably minimal.

[rayiner]

Even if CLS has an edge over Chicago when it comes to NYC firms, does it matter? There are so many jobs in the V10, that these firms will often go down to median or below at CCN. Maybe odds for someone around median are slightly better at CLS than Chicago, but that's not enough of a reason to turn down the Ruby. There are only a couple of firms in NYC that are really grade selective at CCN (WLRK, Susman, etc), and those are a big reach from either.

[Tiago Splitter]

It wouldn't surprise me if it's actually a bit easier to get NYC biglaw out of Chicago just because of the reduced competition, at least for people near median and above. Congrats on the Ruby.

[bhanson10]

Ruby. $100,000 savings. Where I live, that's a house...

[wons]

This is a close call, similar to one that I once had to make. What it really boils down to is if its worth ~$33K/year to you to avoid living in Chicago and going to school in Hyde Park.

There's a COA difference between these two schools, but there's also a corresponding QoL difference. CLS also does very marginally better at firm placement, but I don't think that difference is material enough to matter.

So the question is how much is it worth to you to live in Morningside Heights or the UWS for 3 years v. Hyde Park? Plenty of people spend 30K a year to live in a better neighborhood or a preferred city; its not an unreasonable way to spend money. It's just a judgment call.

[jbagelboy]

This is a close call, similar to one that I once had to make. What it really boils down to is if its worth ~$33K/year to you to avoid living in Chicago and going to school in Hyde Park.

There's a COA difference between these two schools, but there's also a corresponding QoL difference. CLS also does very marginally better at firm placement, but I don't think that difference is material enough to matter.

So the question is how much is it worth to you to live in Morningside Heights or the UWS for 3 years v. Hyde Park? Plenty of people spend 30K a year to live in a better neighborhood or a preferred city; its not an unreasonable way to spend money. It's just a judgment call.

I would agree with you if this was only a CoL cost difference, but it's actually a huge tuition gap too. This isn't full ride v full ride

[ph14]

Chicago, if Columbia won't match or come very close. They're peer schools, and I would pick whichever school gave me more money (unless it was very close).

[zman]

Chicago for sure.

[downinDtown]

What it really boils down to is if its worth ~$33K/year to you to avoid living in Chicago and going to school in Hyde Park.

So the question is how much is it worth to you to live in Morningside Heights or the UWS for 3 years v. Hyde Park? Plenty of people spend 30K a year to live in a better neighborhood or a preferred city; its not an unreasonable way to spend money. It's just a judgment call.

The cost is more than 33K per year (if they're taking out loans and that's also assuming no tuition increases). They'd be accruing interest on that debt that gets recapitalized on top of loan amount post-grad, and then on a payment plan, they'll be paying more interest on an amortized schedule. So depending on how fast they pay it down, that could end up sizably increasing the amount they'd have to pay back. While I understand your QoL points, your CoA argument doesn't account for the true cost of that additional borrowing. It's probably closer to a true cost of 40-45K per year.

[20141023]

.

[Theopliske8711]

A ruby is the best deal you could hope for. Just deposit in Chicago...

[IndyHCKM]

I sent an appeal email to Columbia today, but I don't realistically expect them to come back with full tuition (though that would make me incredibly happy ).

I negotiated with Columbia to match my Ruby - they upped their quarter tuition offer by 5k.

I was shocked. But hopefully you'll have better luck.

[wons]

What it really boils down to is if its worth ~$33K/year to you to avoid living in Chicago and going to school in Hyde Park.

So the question is how much is it worth to you to live in Morningside Heights or the UWS for 3 years v. Hyde Park? Plenty of people spend 30K a year to live in a better neighborhood or a preferred city; its not an unreasonable way to spend money. It's just a judgment call.

The cost is more than 33K per year (if they're taking out loans and that's also assuming no tuition increases). They'd be accruing interest on that debt that gets recapitalized on top of loan amount post-grad, and then on a payment plan, they'll be paying more interest on an amortized schedule. So depending on how fast they pay it down, that could end up sizably increasing the amount they'd have to pay back. While I understand your QoL points, your CoA argument doesn't account for the true cost of that additional borrowing. It's probably closer to a true cost of 40-45K per year.

Fair enough; that's still not dispositive in terms of picking b/s Columbia and Chicago. Manhattan - even morningside heights - is a more desirable a place to be than the south side of Chicago. There's a reason why CoL is lower in Chicago.