Duke v. Penn v. Chicago Forum

[KatyMarie]

I would disagree with this. SE BigLaw is extremely grade-conscious except for HYS. If you want to land Atl BigLaw (which I assume we're talking about, as SE BigLaw is really Atl BigLaw plus a few other national firms with offices in random other SE cities), you'll likely need to be around top third at Duke. From Harvard, you could likely get Atl BigLaw from below median.

Interesting. I guess I'd be alright with BigLaw elsewhere if my grades weren't up to par for Atl BigLaw..the cost difference is pretty steep. But I hate to close doors like that. Definitely something to think about though (if I even get the opportunity to make that decision! )

[KatyMarie]

Because you can almost always go up 2-3 points with another retry or two, and in the 167-170 range that means $100k in scholarship money. When else are you going to get $100k just for taking a lousy test over again?

Yep.

And OP, I'm pretty sure that advice is coming from a federal clerk, not some random 0L.

He can say he's anyone he wants. At this point, he's some random guy on the internet making incorrect assumptions about my situation (including my family's situation) and being overly hyperbolic, dramatic, and insulting family for some reason. Not interested in discussing this with someone who just wants to start arguments on the internet, it's a waste of both of our time.

[Tiago Splitter]

Because you can almost always go up 2-3 points with another retry or two, and in the 167-170 range that means $100k in scholarship money. When else are you going to get $100k just for taking a lousy test over again?

Yep.

And OP, I'm pretty sure that advice is coming from a federal clerk, not some random 0L.

He can say he's anyone he wants. At this point, he's some random guy on the internet making incorrect assumptions about my situation (including my family's situation) and being overly hyperbolic, dramatic, and insulting family for some reason. Not interested in discussing this with someone who just wants to start arguments on the internet, it's a waste of both of our time.

The fact that you're not getting parental support for law school makes retaking all the more imperative. You're not even getting a good price; someone in another thread has a 4.0/169 and has a near full ride from Northwestern. At the very least, negotiate these scholarship offers up so that you aren't drowning in so much debt. Debt that can also be substantially lessened by a June retake.

[KatyMarie]

The fact that you're not getting parental support for law school makes retaking all the more imperative. You're not even getting a good price; someone in another thread has a 4.0/169 and has a near full ride from Northwestern. At the very least, negotiate these scholarship offers up so that you aren't drowning in so much debt. Debt that can also be substantially lessened by a June retake.

I get that not everyone is going to be happy with scoring at the 96th percentile on the LSAT and getting a 4.0 in undergrad, but I'm fine with my options. I'm not going to risk the stress of a year of unemployment to get that to the 98th percentile. I studied my ass off 20 hours a week for almost 8 months and paid for an LSAT prep course, it's not like I blew the test off. If I had a different family situation or employment situation, I might make a different choice, but this is where I'm at.

[3L2014]

Sure, a retake might get you into HYS (where you will spend more money) or it might up your scholarship. But if you dont have a job lined up, I think going to Duke on a 90k scholarship is not a bad outcome...

Whoever said "penn" clearly goes to Penn...because that is just bad advice for you.

[rayiner]

The fact that you're not getting parental support for law school makes retaking all the more imperative. You're not even getting a good price; someone in another thread has a 4.0/169 and has a near full ride from Northwestern. At the very least, negotiate these scholarship offers up so that you aren't drowning in so much debt. Debt that can also be substantially lessened by a June retake.

I get that not everyone is going to be happy with scoring at the 96th percentile on the LSAT and getting a 4.0 in undergrad, but I'm fine with my options. I'm not going to risk the stress of a year of unemployment to get that to the 98th percentile. I studied my ass off 20 hours a week for almost 8 months and paid for an LSAT prep course, it's not like I blew the test off. If I had a different family situation or employment situation, I might make a different choice, but this is where I'm at.

Whether you're "happy" or not is utterly irrelevant. This isn't about feelings, it's about money. Being "happy" with options is a coping mechanism for people who have no other options and can't change their circumstances. You don't fall into that category.

As for stress, you know what's stressful? Life with six figure debt. Invoking stress over one exam is totally inane. You realize that law school is just three years of high stakes exams, right. Studying for the LSAT is cake compared to:

1) First semester exams with six figure debt;
2) Second semester exams with six figure debt;
3) Law review write on with six figure debt;
4) OCI with six figure debt;
5) A summer associateship with six figure debt;
6) Being an associate with six figure debt.

Each of these was by itself more stressful for me than studying for the LSAT, and I have rich parents that could have bailed me out. You can't imagine, as a 0L, how stressful it will be without a safety net.

[jbagelboy]

The fact that you're not getting parental support for law school makes retaking all the more imperative. You're not even getting a good price; someone in another thread has a 4.0/169 and has a near full ride from Northwestern. At the very least, negotiate these scholarship offers up so that you aren't drowning in so much debt. Debt that can also be substantially lessened by a June retake.

I get that not everyone is going to be happy with scoring at the 96th percentile on the LSAT and getting a 4.0 in undergrad, but I'm fine with my options. I'm not going to risk the stress of a year of unemployment to get that to the 98th percentile. I studied my ass off 20 hours a week for almost 8 months and paid for an LSAT prep course, it's not like I blew the test off. If I had a different family situation or employment situation, I might make a different choice, but this is where I'm at.

Whether you're "happy" or not is utterly irrelevant. Being "happy" with options is a coping mechanism for people who have no other options and can't change their circumstances. You don't fall into that category.

As for stress, you know what's stressful? Life with six figure debt. Invoking stress over one exam is totally inane. You realize that law school is just three years of high stakes exams, right. Studying for the LSAT is cake compared to:

1) First semester exams with six figure debt;
2) Second semester exams with six figure debt;
3) Law review write on with six figure debt;
4) OCI with six figure debt;
5) A summer associateship with six figure debt;
6) Being an associate with six figure debt.

Each of these was by itself more stressful for me than studying for the LSAT, and I have rich parents that could have bailed me out. You can't imagine, as a 0L, how stressful it will be without a safety net.

At a certain point, once people have made up their mind, their decisions are their own.. this isn't some catastrophically bad choice like choosing Hastings or Seton Hall at sticker because studying for the LSAT hurts the ego. I agree OP could retake, but lets not drive them off the site.

[KatyMarie]

At a certain point, once people have made up their mind, their decisions are their own.. this isn't some catastrophically bad choice like choosing Hastings or Seton Hall at sticker because studying for the LSAT hurts the ego. I agree OP could retake, but lets not drive them off the site.

Thanks. I'm not going to leave this site just because a stranger feels like calling people names online. I wouldn't last very long on any internet community if I did that

[Otunga]

The fact that you're not getting parental support for law school makes retaking all the more imperative. You're not even getting a good price; someone in another thread has a 4.0/169 and has a near full ride from Northwestern. At the very least, negotiate these scholarship offers up so that you aren't drowning in so much debt. Debt that can also be substantially lessened by a June retake.

I get that not everyone is going to be happy with scoring at the 96th percentile on the LSAT and getting a 4.0 in undergrad, but I'm fine with my options. I'm not going to risk the stress of a year of unemployment to get that to the 98th percentile. I studied my ass off 20 hours a week for almost 8 months and paid for an LSAT prep course, it's not like I blew the test off. If I had a different family situation or employment situation, I might make a different choice, but this is where I'm at.

Whether you're "happy" or not is utterly irrelevant. This isn't about feelings, it's about money. Being "happy" with options is a coping mechanism for people who have no other options and can't change their circumstances. You don't fall into that category.

As for stress, you know what's stressful? Life with six figure debt. Invoking stress over one exam is totally inane. You realize that law school is just three years of high stakes exams, right. Studying for the LSAT is cake compared to:

1) First semester exams with six figure debt;
2) Second semester exams with six figure debt;
3) Law review write on with six figure debt;
4) OCI with six figure debt;
5) A summer associateship with six figure debt;
6) Being an associate with six figure debt.

Each of these was by itself more stressful for me than studying for the LSAT, and I have rich parents that could have bailed me out. You can't imagine, as a 0L, how stressful it will be without a safety net.

None of those sound fun. I think OP ought to retake, but Duke is a respectable choice here. Six figure debt, when tying in living expenses, is nearly unavoidable with law school, so I would think OP would need 172+ to make under six figure debt a possibility.

[rebexness]

At a certain point, once people have made up their mind, their decisions are their own.. this isn't some catastrophically bad choice like choosing Hastings or Seton Hall at sticker because studying for the LSAT hurts the ego. I agree OP could retake, but lets not drive them off the site.

Thanks. I'm not going to leave this site just because a stranger feels like calling people names online. I wouldn't last very long on any internet community if I did that

I mean, nobody is really calling you names. You making a choice to go into six figure debt when you clearly don't have to is dumb, but that doesn't mean we are calling you dumb. That's basic LSAT logic.

[Theopliske8711]

The fact that you're not getting parental support for law school makes retaking all the more imperative. You're not even getting a good price; someone in another thread has a 4.0/169 and has a near full ride from Northwestern. At the very least, negotiate these scholarship offers up so that you aren't drowning in so much debt. Debt that can also be substantially lessened by a June retake.

I get that not everyone is going to be happy with scoring at the 96th percentile on the LSAT and getting a 4.0 in undergrad, but I'm fine with my options. I'm not going to risk the stress of a year of unemployment to get that to the 98th percentile. I studied my ass off 20 hours a week for almost 8 months and paid for an LSAT prep course, it's not like I blew the test off. If I had a different family situation or employment situation, I might make a different choice, but this is where I'm at.

If you've made a decision, then it is what it is. But I'll just say, look past your momentary discomfort when making this decision. Think about how you might feel 4 years from now when you are making your monthly payments and seeing that 100k+ debt and knowing that if could have been avoided.

[KatyMarie]

At a certain point, once people have made up their mind, their decisions are their own.. this isn't some catastrophically bad choice like choosing Hastings or Seton Hall at sticker because studying for the LSAT hurts the ego. I agree OP could retake, but lets not drive them off the site.

Thanks. I'm not going to leave this site just because a stranger feels like calling people names online. I wouldn't last very long on any internet community if I did that

I mean, nobody is really calling you names. You making a choice to go into six figure debt when you clearly don't have to is dumb, but that doesn't mean we are calling you dumb. That's basic LSAT logic.

Check page 1. The guy called me an idiot and went on to talk about how my family didn't know anything.. (even though I never brought up my family, still don't know what the hell that was about). That's what I was referring to. I just don't think it's okay to treat other people badly for no reason, even if it's just over the internet.

[Tiago Splitter]

None of those sound fun. I think OP ought to retake, but Duke is a respectable choice here. Six figure debt, when tying in living expenses, is nearly unavoidable with law school, so I would think OP would need 172+ to make under six figure debt a possibility.

Like I said, those numbers are getting people under 100k debt at places like Northwestern and Cornell, so even without a retake OP needs to negotiate her way into better options.

BTW killer Jake the Snake tar.

[rayiner]

At a certain point, once people have made up their mind, their decisions are their own.. this isn't some catastrophically bad choice like choosing Hastings or Seton Hall at sticker because studying for the LSAT hurts the ego. I agree OP could retake, but lets not drive them off the site.

Thanks. I'm not going to leave this site just because a stranger feels like calling people names online. I wouldn't last very long on any internet community if I did that

I mean, nobody is really calling you names. You making a choice to go into six figure debt when you clearly don't have to is dumb, but that doesn't mean we are calling you dumb. That's basic LSAT logic.

I'm pretty sure I called her an idiot, and I mean it. Who else turns down a high chance at life changing scholarship money? Who else assumes that unemployment is the only alternative to law school when she has a 4.0 UGPA? What other words am I supposed to use?

OP isn't offering any reasoned response to my advice, just calling me out for being an asshole. And I am being an asshole. Sometimes you have to be an asshole to draw attention to yourself. And in this case, being a huge asshole is a way to get people talking about the issue here, which is a classic 0L reason for not retaking: I'm "happy with my score and my alternative is unemployment."

Instead of focusing on how big of an asshole I am, let's focus on this trite excuse 0L's give, with stupid justifications like "retaking will be stressful (but 1L with crushing loans will be cake)." Instead of wanking over differences in the margins (difference in placement between Duke and Penn), which 0L's will do ad nauseum, let's talk about things that matter.

[Otunga]

None of those sound fun. I think OP ought to retake, but Duke is a respectable choice here. Six figure debt, when tying in living expenses, is nearly unavoidable with law school, so I would think OP would need 172+ to make under six figure debt a possibility.

Like I said, those numbers are getting people under 100k debt at places like Northwestern and Cornell, so even without a retake OP needs to negotiate her way into better options.

BTW killer Jake the Snake tar.

I have comparable numbers to OP and it's difficult to dip under 100k debt when, for instance, implementing a big scholarship at Cornell. Granted, hers are a little better. Trust me.

[Tiago Splitter]

None of those sound fun. I think OP ought to retake, but Duke is a respectable choice here. Six figure debt, when tying in living expenses, is nearly unavoidable with law school, so I would think OP would need 172+ to make under six figure debt a possibility.

Like I said, those numbers are getting people under 100k debt at places like Northwestern and Cornell, so even without a retake OP needs to negotiate her way into better options.

BTW killer Jake the Snake tar.

I have comparable numbers to OP and it's difficult to dip under 100k debt when, for instance, implementing a big scholarship at Cornell. Granted, hers are a little better. Trust me.

Ok but we're not even talking about like 110k here. The best option is still 160k , which is too much for someone at or above both medians at so many T-14 schools.

And again, as a late 80's/early 90's wrestling fan I have to compliment you on a fantastic avatar.

[KatyMarie]

At a certain point, once people have made up their mind, their decisions are their own.. this isn't some catastrophically bad choice like choosing Hastings or Seton Hall at sticker because studying for the LSAT hurts the ego. I agree OP could retake, but lets not drive them off the site.

Thanks. I'm not going to leave this site just because a stranger feels like calling people names online. I wouldn't last very long on any internet community if I did that

I mean, nobody is really calling you names. You making a choice to go into six figure debt when you clearly don't have to is dumb, but that doesn't mean we are calling you dumb. That's basic LSAT logic.

I'm pretty sure I called her an idiot, and I mean it. Who else turns down a high chance at life changing scholarship money? Who else assumes that unemployment is the only alternative to law school when she has a 4.0 UGPA? What other words am I supposed to use?

OP isn't offering any reasoned response to my advice, just calling me out for being an asshole. And I am being an asshole. Sometimes you have to be an asshole to draw attention to yourself. And in this case, being a huge asshole is a way to get people talking about the issue here, which is a classic 0L reason for not retaking: I'm "happy with my score and my alternative is unemployment."

Instead of focusing on how big of an asshole I am, let's focus on this trite excuse 0L's give, with stupid justifications like "retaking will be stressful (but 1L with crushing loans will be cake)." Instead of wanking over differences in the margins (difference in placement between Duke and Penn), which 0L's will do ad nauseum, let's talk about things that matter.

Since I'm too much of an idiot to come around to brilliant and enlightened perspective on this, stop wasting your time on me.

[KatyMarie]

None of those sound fun. I think OP ought to retake, but Duke is a respectable choice here. Six figure debt, when tying in living expenses, is nearly unavoidable with law school, so I would think OP would need 172+ to make under six figure debt a possibility.

Like I said, those numbers are getting people under 100k debt at places like Northwestern and Cornell, so even without a retake OP needs to negotiate her way into better options.

BTW killer Jake the Snake tar.

I don't have any cards to negotiate with that are going to get me under 100k debt I don't think. Chicago probably won't care about the scholarship to Duke. Duke probably won't care about a scholarship to Vanderbilt. etc

[lawschool22]

None of those sound fun. I think OP ought to retake, but Duke is a respectable choice here. Six figure debt, when tying in living expenses, is nearly unavoidable with law school, so I would think OP would need 172+ to make under six figure debt a possibility.

Like I said, those numbers are getting people under 100k debt at places like Northwestern and Cornell, so even without a retake OP needs to negotiate her way into better options.

BTW killer Jake the Snake tar.

I don't have any cards to negotiate with that are going to get me under 100k debt I don't think. Chicago probably won't care about the scholarship to Duke. Duke probably won't care about a scholarship to Vanderbilt. etc

You should still attempt to negotiate. You have nothing to lose.

FWIW I voted Duke, given cost and goals. Chicago isn't worth the extra $$ in my opinion for your situation. You should probably re-take, for additional $$, but barring that, you will probably do fine if you go to Duke and are okay with NYC biglaw. Southern biglaw will be harder to get initially than you may think.

[jumpin munkey]

Gonna have to agree with rayiner (with the caveat that retaking past a 171/172 makes less sense when your GPA precludes you from HYSCC). All law school choices are relative. E.g., sticker at NYU these days is fairly unappealing as a general matter, but if you have a 3.2 UGPA and a 177 and no real alternative job prospects, it's probably not a bad option in the long run. But that's the opposite of your situation--your choices now aren't bad in a vacuum, but for someone with a 4.0 they're pretty weak. You have the opportunity to take a test that can save you six figures. I'll grant that it's easy for people in law school to just say "retake, take a year off, etc.," when deferring for a year after you got all ramped up to start school in the fall seems like a bummer. And it is, but you're talking about a ton of money here. At least think about it for a long while.

[KatyMarie]

You should still attempt to negotiate. You have nothing to lose.

FWIW I voted Duke, given cost and goals. Chicago isn't worth the extra $$ in my opinion for your situation. You should probably re-take, for additional $$, but barring that, you will probably do fine if you go to Duke and are okay with NYC biglaw. Southern biglaw will be harder to get initially than you may think.

Thanks, I'll try to negotiate and see what happens. Can't hurt anyway. I'm lucky enough to have some really solid connections in SE Biglaw at this point and significant ties, so I'm confident something will pan out. Can't predict the future though, and NYC Biglaw wouldn't be the end of the world either. Living in NYC is certainly not ideal, but I can gut up and deal with it if that's where the work is. Are there other markets that are easier to crack than the Southeast but aren't NYC?

[KatyMarie]

Gonna have to agree with rayiner (with the caveat that retaking past a 171/172 makes less sense when your GPA precludes you from HYSCC). All law school choices are relative. E.g., sticker at NYU these days is fairly unappealing as a general matter, but if you have a 3.2 UGPA and a 177 and no real alternative job prospects, it's probably not a bad option in the long run. But that's the opposite of your situation--your choices now aren't bad in a vacuum, but for someone with a 4.0 they're pretty weak. You have the opportunity to take a test that can save you six figures. I'll grant that it's easy for people in law school to just say "retake, take a year off, etc.," when deferring for a year after you got all ramped up to start school in the fall seems like a bummer. And it is, but you're talking about a ton of money here. At least think about it for a long while.

I did. I might take the June LSAT cause why not. I probably won't do as well, but in the event I score higher, I can maybe use it for more $$ from where ever I deposit(?) And a lower score can't really hurt me at this point.

[lawschool22]

You should still attempt to negotiate. You have nothing to lose.

FWIW I voted Duke, given cost and goals. Chicago isn't worth the extra $$ in my opinion for your situation. You should probably re-take, for additional $$, but barring that, you will probably do fine if you go to Duke and are okay with NYC biglaw. Southern biglaw will be harder to get initially than you may think.

Thanks, I'll try to negotiate and see what happens. Can't hurt anyway. I'm lucky enough to have some really solid connections in SE Biglaw at this point and significant ties, so I'm confident something will pan out. Can't predict the future though, and NYC Biglaw wouldn't be the end of the world either. Living in NYC is certainly not ideal, but I can gut up and deal with it if that's where the work is. Are there other markets that are easier to crack than the Southeast but aren't NYC?

I mean with ties and decent grades I think you would be in okay shape at Duke. I was at the ASW and I spoke to a lot of current students who seemed to not have too much trouble landing a gig in the southeast if they had ties. Now I will say they were not all at "big" firms, but that doesn't mean they weren't desirable. There were a lot of people targeting smaller firms in markets like Charlotte, etc. and the general sense was if you're around median (or higher, obviously) and have good ties you can get it if you nail your interview.

[KatyMarie]

You should still attempt to negotiate. You have nothing to lose.

FWIW I voted Duke, given cost and goals. Chicago isn't worth the extra $$ in my opinion for your situation. You should probably re-take, for additional $$, but barring that, you will probably do fine if you go to Duke and are okay with NYC biglaw. Southern biglaw will be harder to get initially than you may think.

Thanks, I'll try to negotiate and see what happens. Can't hurt anyway. I'm lucky enough to have some really solid connections in SE Biglaw at this point and significant ties, so I'm confident something will pan out. Can't predict the future though, and NYC Biglaw wouldn't be the end of the world either. Living in NYC is certainly not ideal, but I can gut up and deal with it if that's where the work is. Are there other markets that are easier to crack than the Southeast but aren't NYC?

I mean with ties and decent grades I think you would be in okay shape at Duke. I was at the ASW and I spoke to a lot of current students who seemed to not have too much trouble landing a gig in the southeast if they had ties. Now I will say they were not all at "big" firms, but that doesn't mean they weren't desirable. There were a lot of people targeting smaller firms in markets like Charlotte, etc. and the general sense was if you're around median (or higher, obviously) and have good ties you can get it if you nail your interview.

Thanks! That's helpful. Sort of wish I'd picked Duke's ASW over Penn's now.

[jbagelboy]

I heard the Penn ASW was a shitshow. (In a good way).