aaaaaaaaa Forum

[zhifeixie]

agree UCLA from this list. if any of the T14s admit you off WL with enough $$, I'd definitely jump at that instead. also agree that transactional is your best bet, and UCLA is in the best market for that of the three (plus seriously target NYC).

I'm surprised at the WLs, I'd think it's a seller's market for LSAT scores...

YUP, I also hope GULC will give me like 30K per year! that will definitely solve all the problems! Unfortunately all I can do is wait.

Me and a lot of friends are surprised too! really strong competition this year, compared with last year. Wish I had been born one year earlier.

[dead head]

UCLA（40k/yr)
1. of the total 40k/yr, 25k/yr is merit-based, so it's for all 3 years. but 15k/yr is need-based(needaccess), which I will have to reapply each year. SO there is the risk of not being granted in 2nd or 3rd year.

UCLA offers need-based aid to international applicants? This seems very unusual.

Anyway, I would think that ending up in HK or China is more likely than ending up in the US, and the West Coast/Silicon Valley is perhaps even a more likely landing spot than NYC if you do get the US (especially if your degree is tech-related).

[zhifeixie]

UCLA（40k/yr)
1. of the total 40k/yr, 25k/yr is merit-based, so it's for all 3 years. but 15k/yr is need-based(needaccess), which I will have to reapply each year. SO there is the risk of not being granted in 2nd or 3rd year.

UCLA offers need-based aid to international applicants? This seems very unusual.

Anyway, I would think that ending up in HK or China is more likely than ending up in the US, and the West Coast/Silicon Valley is perhaps even a more likely landing spot than NYC if you do get the US (especially if your degree is tech-related).

it is , but they do. I guess very very few law schools do that.

well, if I am more likely to end up in HK or CHINA, then I will have to think about overall cost problem even more. Because I will be spending DOLLARS in law school but making RMB in work then, which is only 1/6 of DOLLARS.

And unfortunately my major is not tech-related. I am a law major, which I think is a basket-weaving major here in CHINA.

[McAvoy]

I would steer clear of Nashville. It will be a much tougher cultural fit than Austin or LA, as others have said. I felt a bit out of place on my visit (though not at the school), and I'm from two states away.

The conventional TLS wisdom is that Texas biglaw is very insular, and that simply going to UT from out of state is not enough to convince them that you want to live in Texas for an extended period of time. It's probably not like the good ol' boys will exclude you because you're a foreigner, but LA doesn't have a reputation for being insular -- it's something to consider.

As far as English goes, if you performed that well on the LSAT, there's no doubt you can comprehend English at a very high level, just make sure you're practicing writing as much as possible.

[zhifeixie]

I would steer clear of Nashville. It will be a much tougher cultural fit than Austin or LA, as others have said. I felt a bit out of place on my visit (though not at the school), and I'm from two states away.

The conventional TLS wisdom is that Texas biglaw is very insular, and that simply going to UT from out of state is not enough to convince them that you want to live in Texas for an extended period of time. It's probably not like the good ol' boys will exclude you because you're a foreigner, but LA doesn't have a reputation for being insular -- it's something to consider.

As far as English goes, if you performed that well on the LSAT, there's no doubt you can comprehend English at a very high level, just make sure you're practicing writing as much as possible.

well actually my main focus is texas v. ucla too.

"The conventional TLS wisdom" so do u think ppl might have exaggerated a little in this aspect? maybe the current texas legal market isn't so insular as ppl think?

thanks for the advice buddy

[McAvoy]

"The conventional TLS wisdom" so do u think ppl might have exaggerated a little in this aspect? maybe the current texas legal market isn't so insular as ppl think?

Not really. In my limited, 0L opinion, conventional TLS wisdom is pretty reliable. If you kill it and do very well in school, not being an original Texan is probably not going to hold you back. If you're around median and haven't done anything extraordinary, you should probably be prepared to be passed over for natives.

For what it's worth, I'm an out of stater who's likely headed to UT, so I'm not overly frightened. (Though I am frightened). If I were in your shoes, I'd probably pick UCLA, but if you pick Austin, shoot me a PM in August and we'll get some beers.

[McAvoy]

Also, it didn't look like you had it factored in to your OP:

Tuition at UCLA is likely to increase 1-2% every year; tuition at UT locks in at your first semester for the whole way through. It's not a huge deal, but it will save you two or three grand overall. You also need one less credit to graduate from UT than UCLA, so that pry saves you about another grand.

In UCLA's corner (though take this with a grain of salt because of your citizenship status), you can get in-state tuition after one year there, so tuition drops like 5K for 2L and 3L.

[rackylo]

Hi Zhifeixie,
L.A. is the best location for you to have a smooth transition from living in China to studying in the U.S., also, the brand of UCLA carries more weight in the Pacific-Asia region due to its extensive alum network. The Texas firms like UT graduates, but it is hard to show your tie to the state as an international student.
What's your undergraduate major? Have you considered patent law? If you have background in science, UCLA is probably an even better choice for you because of California's strong tech firms.
Regarding the possibility of retaining that 15k/yr need-based aid, probably it is more fruitful for you to ask current UCLA students and admission staff about this.

[srslyp]

I feel it would be far more likely you could find a good job (not necessarily biglaw, but something that could get you a work visa of some kind) in LA than in Texas. Things have changed in the South, but not as much as you might think. Granted, Texas is more multicultural than, say, Mississippi, but a lot of the old boys at big Texas firms still are going to be white males from a very privileged Southern background. There is nothing wrong with that, but many of them are not comfortable with people from other cultures. These are simply the facts, from someone who grew up in the South.

Even if you don't mind being a minority, there are disadvantages that come with being seen as a "foreigner." People, on average, care far less about that in LA than in Texas.

If someone is from Texas, and feels that it is actually pretty inclusive (places like Houston, Dallas, etc. where the OP might work) feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I grew up in TN, not Texas. But yea, there are cowboys. That's pretty South.

[dead head]

well, if I am more likely to end up in HK or CHINA, then I will have to think about overall cost problem even more. Because I will be spending DOLLARS in law school but making RMB in work then, which is only 1/6 of DOLLARS.

On it's face that makes no sense. I mean, it's not like $1 translates to 1 RMB in either wages or prices. How many yuan is a coffee at Starbucks in China, again? Pretty sure it's not 2¥... more like 30¥, if I remember.

Anyway, working at a firm in HK as a US associate will pay more than working at a US firm in the US: you get the NYC $160k salary as well as large cost-of-living adjustments. Work at a US/international firm in China and you will also be making as much as in the US.

[cotiger]

I feel it would be far more likely you could find a good job (not necessarily biglaw, but something that could get you a work visa of some kind) in LA than in Texas. Things have changed in the South, but not as much as you might think. Granted, Texas is more multicultural than, say, Mississippi, but a lot of the old boys at big Texas firms still are going to be white males from a very privileged Southern background. There is nothing wrong with that, but many of them are not comfortable with people from other cultures. These are simply the facts, from someone who grew up in the South.

Even if you don't mind being a minority, there are disadvantages that come with being seen as a "foreigner." People, on average, care far less about that in LA than in Texas.

If someone is from Texas, and feels that it is actually pretty inclusive (places like Houston, Dallas, etc. where the OP might work) feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I grew up in TN, not Texas. But yea, there are cowboys. That's pretty South.

You're wrong on almost every point, sorry.

That being said, LA would still probably be more comfortable for OP.

[zhifeixie]

"The conventional TLS wisdom" so do u think ppl might have exaggerated a little in this aspect? maybe the current texas legal market isn't so insular as ppl think?

Not really. In my limited, 0L opinion, conventional TLS wisdom is pretty reliable. If you kill it and do very well in school, not being an original Texan is probably not going to hold you back. If you're around median and haven't done anything extraordinary, you should probably be prepared to be passed over for natives.

For what it's worth, I'm an out of stater who's likely headed to UT, so I'm not overly frightened. (Though I am frightened). If I were in your shoes, I'd probably pick UCLA, but if you pick Austin, shoot me a PM in August and we'll get some beers.

Thanks buddy. But I guess if I'm around media and haven't done anything extraordinary in UCLA, then I will be passed over for natives too?

And yes, If I decide to go to UT, I will make sure we get together sometime for a drink.

[zhifeixie]

Also, it didn't look like you had it factored in to your OP:

Tuition at UCLA is likely to increase 1-2% every year; tuition at UT locks in at your first semester for the whole way through. It's not a huge deal, but it will save you two or three grand overall. You also need one less credit to graduate from UT than UCLA, so that pry saves you about another grand.

In UCLA's corner (though take this with a grain of salt because of your citizenship status), you can get in-state tuition after one year there, so tuition drops like 5K for 2L and 3L.

I can take the first point you mentioned, it's not game-changing factor I guess.

As for that corner u mentioned, so u mean out-of-states can get in-state tuition in 2L and 3L but Internationals like me cannot? That sucks.

[zhifeixie]

Hi Zhifeixie,
L.A. is the best location for you to have a smooth transition from living in China to studying in the U.S., also, the brand of UCLA carries more weight in the Pacific-Asia region due to its extensive alum network. The Texas firms like UT graduates, but it is hard to show your tie to the state as an international student.
What's your undergraduate major? Have you considered patent law? If you have background in science, UCLA is probably an even better choice for you because of California's strong tech firms.
Regarding the possibility of retaining that 15k/yr need-based aid, probably it is more fruitful for you to ask current UCLA students and admission staff about this.

Thanks buddy. My major is law, I know law school is a sacred word in US, but in CHina law is really such a basket-weaving major in undergraduate level.

I have a Chinese friend who did college in US told me that I am unlikely to lose my needaccess $. so I will ask school about it.

[zhifeixie]

I feel it would be far more likely you could find a good job (not necessarily biglaw, but something that could get you a work visa of some kind) in LA than in Texas. Things have changed in the South, but not as much as you might think. Granted, Texas is more multicultural than, say, Mississippi, but a lot of the old boys at big Texas firms still are going to be white males from a very privileged Southern background. There is nothing wrong with that, but many of them are not comfortable with people from other cultures. These are simply the facts, from someone who grew up in the South.

Even if you don't mind being a minority, there are disadvantages that come with being seen as a "foreigner." People, on average, care far less about that in LA than in Texas.

If someone is from Texas, and feels that it is actually pretty inclusive (places like Houston, Dallas, etc. where the OP might work) feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I grew up in TN, not Texas. But yea, there are cowboys. That's pretty South.

thanks buddy.

[zhifeixie]

well, if I am more likely to end up in HK or CHINA, then I will have to think about overall cost problem even more. Because I will be spending DOLLARS in law school but making RMB in work then, which is only 1/6 of DOLLARS.

On it's face that makes no sense. I mean, it's not like $1 translates to 1 RMB in either wages or prices. How many yuan is a coffee at Starbucks in China, again? Pretty sure it's not 2¥... more like 30¥, if I remember.

Anyway, working at a firm in HK as a US associate will pay more than working at a US firm in the US: you get the NYC $160k salary as well as large cost-of-living adjustments. Work at a US/international firm in China and you will also be making as much as in the US.

I think what u r referring to is a GLOBAL-PAY job, and I think the difficulty of finding a global-pay job is definitely no less than finding one in US. And I think I will be even happier if I can get that, to be able to make DOLLARS but also being close to home.

[zhifeixie]

I feel it would be far more likely you could find a good job (not necessarily biglaw, but something that could get you a work visa of some kind) in LA than in Texas. Things have changed in the South, but not as much as you might think. Granted, Texas is more multicultural than, say, Mississippi, but a lot of the old boys at big Texas firms still are going to be white males from a very privileged Southern background. There is nothing wrong with that, but many of them are not comfortable with people from other cultures. These are simply the facts, from someone who grew up in the South.

Even if you don't mind being a minority, there are disadvantages that come with being seen as a "foreigner." People, on average, care far less about that in LA than in Texas.

If someone is from Texas, and feels that it is actually pretty inclusive (places like Houston, Dallas, etc. where the OP might work) feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I grew up in TN, not Texas. But yea, there are cowboys. That's pretty South.

You're wrong on almost every point, sorry.

That being said, LA would still probably be more comfortable for OP.

Thanks buddy. Mind telling us more about it?

[cotiger]

I feel it would be far more likely you could find a good job (not necessarily biglaw, but something that could get you a work visa of some kind) in LA than in Texas. Things have changed in the South, but not as much as you might think. Granted, Texas is more multicultural than, say, Mississippi, but a lot of the old boys at big Texas firms still are going to be white males from a very privileged Southern background. There is nothing wrong with that, but many of them are not comfortable with people from other cultures. These are simply the facts, from someone who grew up in the South.

Even if you don't mind being a minority, there are disadvantages that come with being seen as a "foreigner." People, on average, care far less about that in LA than in Texas.

If someone is from Texas, and feels that it is actually pretty inclusive (places like Houston, Dallas, etc. where the OP might work) feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I grew up in TN, not Texas. But yea, there are cowboys. That's pretty South.

You're wrong on almost every point, sorry.

That being said, LA would still probably be more comfortable for OP.

Thanks buddy. Mind telling us more about it?

Srslyp is confusing rural bumpkins with the corporate professionals living in cosmopolitan cities who you would actually be interacting with. Also injecting some weird southernness into the equation.

I grew up in Dallas and know quite a few Dallas biglaw partners, if that helps lend credence to what I'm saying.

LA is going to have a much stronger Chinese community and network, though.

[zhifeixie]

I feel it would be far more likely you could find a good job (not necessarily biglaw, but something that could get you a work visa of some kind) in LA than in Texas. Things have changed in the South, but not as much as you might think. Granted, Texas is more multicultural than, say, Mississippi, but a lot of the old boys at big Texas firms still are going to be white males from a very privileged Southern background. There is nothing wrong with that, but many of them are not comfortable with people from other cultures. These are simply the facts, from someone who grew up in the South.

Even if you don't mind being a minority, there are disadvantages that come with being seen as a "foreigner." People, on average, care far less about that in LA than in Texas.

If someone is from Texas, and feels that it is actually pretty inclusive (places like Houston, Dallas, etc. where the OP might work) feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I grew up in TN, not Texas. But yea, there are cowboys. That's pretty South.

You're wrong on almost every point, sorry.

That being said, LA would still probably be more comfortable for OP.

Thanks buddy. Mind telling us more about it?

Srslyp is confusing rural bumpkins with the corporate professionals living in cosmopolitan cities who you would actually be interacting with. Also injecting some weird southernness into the equation.

I grew up in Dallas and know quite a few Dallas biglaw partners, if that helps lend credence to what I'm saying.

LA is going to have a much stronger Chinese community and network, though.

Thanks buddy. So u think the Texas legal market is more friendly to foreigners like me than ppl think?

As for UCLA, I have friends who think that Because of the existence of SLS and Berkeley, the competition in LA is very fierce and UCLAers might be put in disadvantage compared with SLS and Berk. And Utexas, being the best law school in the region, kind of makes things easier. I wonder whether that is correct?

[cotiger]

Thanks buddy. So u think the Texas legal market is more friendly to foreigners like me than ppl think?

As for UCLA, I have friends who think that Because of the existence of SLS and Berkeley, the competition in LA is very fierce and UCLAers might be put in disadvantage compared with SLS and Berk. And Utexas, being the best law school in the region, kind of makes things easier. I wonder whether that is correct?

I have no idea how friendly the Texas legal market is to foreigners, but its degree of friendliness is going to be due to factors outside of some nonsense close-mindedness.

For instance, I would imagine LA firms would tend to do more business than TX firms where a having a native Chinese speaker would be an asset. I honestly don't know any specifics, but if I had to make a guess, I would think that it would be better for you to be on the west coast.

[srslyp]

Srslyp is confusing rural bumpkins with the corporate professionals living in cosmopolitan cities who you would actually be interacting with. Also injecting some weird southernness into the equation.

I grew up in Dallas and know quite a few Dallas biglaw partners, if that helps lend credence to what I'm saying.

LA is going to have a much stronger Chinese community and network, though.

I take your point, but I am aware that working professionals in big cities are different from people in rural areas in the same state. That said, the well educated elite in Nashville still carried some of the cultural peculiarities of people in more blue collar TN. If you were aware that things were quite different in Texas than from TN you simply could have said so, as I stated in my post, rather than by stating that I was wrong on pretty much every point (when I was making one point, essentially). Anyways, according to Mr. cotiger, big Texas cities (or at least firms) are just as multicultural as the west coast, so disregard my advice zhifeixie.

I agree with another poster that the most lucrative position for you (and probably best fit) would likely be one where you ended up in China or HK, working for a US firm. Whichever school gives you a better shot at those international firms would probably be the better choice. I don't know which one that is. I'm sure someone else can chime in.

[wert3813]

UCLA is the pretty clearly the answer here, but so is practicing writing. OP with your current writing skills you would be on a bad part of the curve for your 1L legal writing class. Also keep in mind for LS exams you have a limited amount of time to say what you need to say. So if, like most Americans, your errors increase when you speed up how fast you try to write, then what you produce on exams could be rough enough that teachers won't forgive it.

That said, if you can survive 1L, I do believe your English is good enough, or would be, to do corporate.

[zhifeixie]

Thanks buddy. So u think the Texas legal market is more friendly to foreigners like me than ppl think?

As for UCLA, I have friends who think that Because of the existence of SLS and Berkeley, the competition in LA is very fierce and UCLAers might be put in disadvantage compared with SLS and Berk. And Utexas, being the best law school in the region, kind of makes things easier. I wonder whether that is correct?

I have no idea how friendly the Texas legal market is to foreigners, but its degree of friendliness is going to be due to factors outside of some nonsense close-mindedness.

For instance, I would imagine LA firms would tend to do more business than TX firms where a having a native Chinese speaker would be an asset. I honestly don't know any specifics, but if I had to make a guess, I would think that it would be better for you to be on the west coast.

thanks so much buddy!

[zhifeixie]

Srslyp is confusing rural bumpkins with the corporate professionals living in cosmopolitan cities who you would actually be interacting with. Also injecting some weird southernness into the equation.

I grew up in Dallas and know quite a few Dallas biglaw partners, if that helps lend credence to what I'm saying.

LA is going to have a much stronger Chinese community and network, though.

I take your point, but I am aware that working professionals in big cities are different from people in rural areas in the same state. That said, the well educated elite in Nashville still carried some of the cultural peculiarities of people in more blue collar TN. If you were aware that things were quite different in Texas than from TN you simply could have said so, as I stated in my post, rather than by stating that I was wrong on pretty much every point (when I was making one point, essentially). Anyways, according to Mr. cotiger, big Texas cities (or at least firms) are just as multicultural as the west coast, so disregard my advice zhifeixie.

I agree with another poster that the most lucrative position for you (and probably best fit) would likely be one where you ended up in China or HK, working for a US firm. Whichever school gives you a better shot at those international firms would probably be the better choice. I don't know which one that is. I'm sure someone else can chime in.

all right guys, let's cool it. I'm sure both of you meant well to me, there's no need to have a fight here, it's just some misunderstanding. and thanks again for your post, I really appreciate it. I guess I will have to work very hard to kill for a GLOBAL-PAY job then!

[zhifeixie]

UCLA is the pretty clearly the answer here, but so is practicing writing. OP with your current writing skills you would be on a bad part of the curve for your 1L legal writing class. Also keep in mind for LS exams you have a limited amount of time to say what you need to say. So if, like most Americans, your errors increase when you speed up how fast you try to write, then what you produce on exams could be rough enough that teachers won't forgive it.

That said, if you can survive 1L, I do believe your English is good enough, or would be, to do corporate.

I think my English reading and listening is all right, but my oral and writing skills really suck! I geuss I should start preparing now, any good advice on where can I start like what book/website to read?