Stanford vs. Berkeley ($$$) Forum

[Doorkeeper]

Stanford for $160k is a great deal, especially if OP is interested in staying in San Fran and doing boutique litigation work.

Look at the loan repayments per month

This is why people with no work experience shouldn't go to law school

Just because it is more expensive doesn't mean it still isn't a great deal.

compared to what? 2k a month for 10 years doesn't seem like a great deal to me

Does Stanford have a 10 year loan repayment program for PI people? That would help his/her situation.

[notactuallyposting]

If you can be more specific about what you want to do, people can give better advice (well, some people will pay attention to it). PI is so broad to be almost meaningless because it means anything that's not a firm, and that's a lot of things.

Good point, but for some reason I am scared to post anything too specific on the internet . However, my short term goals would fall under the umbrella of legal aid. My long term goals are more large non-profit focused.

[notactuallyposting]

Does Stanford have a 10 year loan repayment program for PI people? That would help his/her situation.

They do but they take into account your assets and SO income.

[cotiger]

Just because it is more expensive doesn't mean it still isn't a great deal.

Just because it is a great deal doesn't mean it still isn't the wrong deal.







Obviously I say Berk. Rather have the $125k in the bank.

$125k is a fuckton of money, in case some aren't aware. Especially when we're talking PI salaries.

[SLS_AMG]

Is the firm you are interested in Altshuler Berzon or Keker & Van Nest? Keep in mind that either of those boutique firms will require you to be in like the top 5% of your class at Berkeley and probably similar at Stanford. I wouldn't base a law school decision on going to either of those firms.

[notactuallyposting]

Thanks for the input. I take it that you are an SLS student? Care to weigh in?...What would you choose if you were in my situation?

[notactuallyposting]

Seems like many SLS students would have had the option to go to Cal for cheap. Any stanford peeps care to weigh in??

[Kretzy]

Seems like many SLS students would have had the option to go to Cal for cheap. Any stanford peeps care to weigh in??

Stanford grad in SF biglaw. Cal is an absolute freaking steal at that price. $160 is a lot, even for SLS, and paying that back really does suck once loans come due.

I loved Stanford and wouldn't change my experience (and didn't have big money from Boalt). I got the outcomes I wanted - SF, biglaw, am clerking down the road. Stanford's safer on the bottom end (though some friends with really low grades, like 0-1 Ps, struck out in SF, so it's not completely safe), but I don't think it's worth a $130k premium over Berkeley for someone who wants to stay in Northern California under nearly any circumstance, other than pursuing a JD-PhD at Stanford or an unflinching desire to do a particular thing that SLS does and Berkeley doesn't (I can't even off the top of my head think of something that fits this description right now).

Good luck. But pick Boalt.

[abl]

If you are 100% sure about PI, SLS is the easy choice. PI hiring is pretty impossible, and clerkships and prestige play a big role in the harder-to-get entry-level positions and fellowships. If that's the sort of thing you're interested in (and your mention of a boutique makes me think it might be), SLS really does make a very noticeable difference. It's hard to quantify a difference like this (re: is it >$130,000?) -- because you having the career you want vs not having the career you want may be pretty astronomical. Fortunately, there's no need to get into that discussion, because if you're sure about PI, SLS actually may be cheaper than Berkeley. Let me explain.

Stanford has a pretty incredibly LRAP program. I'd encourage you to look into it more, because depending on your partner's salary it may become somewhat less incredible. But, assuming your partner isn't pulling in a ton of money, SLS + most PI jobs will basically mean that school (total COA) is $0. You can find better descriptions of SLS's LRAP online, but the long and short of it is that Stanford will pay 1/10th of your loans and interest every year that you work at PI, assuming your total income is under roughly $60,000 (if I'm remembering correctly). So, if you're totally positive about PI, and the PI jobs you're considering are in the $40,000-60,000 range, as most are, the total COA of SLS will be $0 for you. In this instance, assuming you are POSITIVE about PI, I'd actually encourage you to take out more loans and contribute to your household, and put the money that your partner would be spending on subsidizing your COA towards retirement, a house downpayment, etc.

PM me if you want more specifics about high-profile PI, or about these schools.

[rpupkin]

Seems like many SLS students would have had the option to go to Cal for cheap. Any stanford peeps care to weigh in??

I can see why it might seem that way, but I don't think that's how it works out in practice. First, Boalt is pretty stingy with its merit scholarships; it rarely offers the amount you got. Also, it's not like we're talking about the difference between SLS and Hastings. The credentials of Boalt admits and SLS admits are substantially similar. There are even (gasp) applicants who SLS admits and Boalt rejects.

This thread is interesting. As a longtime TLS lurker, it's fascinating to see how the conventional wisdom has shifted over the past four or five years. If, in 2009, you posed the identical question, I suspect that the poll would be running something like 55-45 in favor of SLS. There's a much higher awareness now of the crushing effects of post-grad debt.

[jbagelboy]

Berkeley.

The difference between the schools for public interest is being overstated by some posters in this thread, notably abl (who I suspect may be a closet SLS grad, maybe YLS)

[abl]

Berkeley.

The difference between the schools for public interest is being overstated by some posters in this thread, notably abl (who I suspect may be a closet SLS grad, maybe YLS)

Well, it depends. If the OP wants to be a public defender and is ok moving to a slightly less desirable office, or wants to do immigrants rights work at a smaller firm, the difference is probably pretty negligible. Not so if the OP is shooting for a Skadden, DOJ Honors, or somewhere like the ACLU/NRDC/Shute Mihaly/Altshuler (although it should probably be noted that many of these elite bay area firms/offices will have strong enough Berkeley connections to mitigate at least some of what would be a much larger difference outside of the Bay Area). Take my word for what it's worth -- I'm several years out of law school (2-4), went to a T10 law school, have done the federal clerkship(s) thing, and have had personal experience looking for a job with / working with a similar organization. And from my experience and in my opinion, the difference--even in the bay area--for these hyper-competitive placements is sufficiently notable to justify a significantly greater COA.*

But I stand by my previous post saying that for any of the above SLS is a pretty easy option IF the OP is pretty positive about PI. If the OP has doubts, that changes (not necessarily to leaning towards Berkeley, but depending on the OP's certainty and PI preferences, would make it a much closer question at least). Put in other words, if the OP is 100% positive about PI, Stanford's actually cheaper than Berkeley, so the discussion should turn to whether Berkeley is worth an extra __$ over Stanford -- and for the OP's purposes I think nobody here would say yes.

*I also want to note that we all have our own preferences and those preferences will enter into our recommendations. For me, the value of having the career that I want to have is HUGE. It's hard to put an exact monetary value on it, but it could easily be $2,000,000 or more over my career. Why? Well, I didn't go to law school to do biglaw. And if I thought that biglaw was going to be my only option out of law school, I would have done something else entirely. So for me, going to a law school that gave me a real option of doing what I wanted to do was easily worth more than one or two hundred thousand dollars over a career. So, sure, I could have gone to a Cornell or a Duke for free. But I would have rather not gone to law school than gone to a school (free or not) that wasn't going to open the doors for me that I needed to be opened (at least widely enough that as a practical matter I had a shot). Others on this board are not going to see this in the same light, because for many, law school comes down to far more of an economic proposition. To the OP: think about why you are going to law school, and what you hope to get from law school. If you really only have a slight preference towards PI, and will be similarly as happy if you strike out there and end up at Baker & McKenzie in San Jose, well, it may not be worth paying much extra to go to SLS. But if you have your heart set on some of the more competitive PI options, and are concerned about having an unsatisfying professional career should you end up elsewhere, the advantage provided by SLS may easily be worth the $130,000 difference -- which, over a career, is not nearly as much as it might seem now. For me, seeing how miserable most of my law school friends are in biglaw, it is worth well more than one or two hundred thousand dollars over a career to even just have a good [img]chance[/img] at avoiding that. Fortunately, though, if you are positive about PI this is not a hard decision you have to make -- because SLS's LRAP makes it most likely a cheaper option that Berkeley.

[rpupkin]

Berkeley.

The difference between the schools for public interest is being overstated by some posters in this thread, notably abl (who I suspect may be a closet SLS grad, maybe YLS)

Well, it depends. If the OP wants to be a public defender or do immigrants rights work at a smaller firm, the difference is probably pretty negligible. Not so if the OP is shooting for a Skadden

A Skadden fellowship is exceedingly rare and should not serve as a basis for choosing a law school. This year, Boalt had 1 Skadden fellow and SLS had zero (http://www.skaddenfellowships.org/news- ... lows-named).

DOJ Honors,

This is basically the same deal as the Skadden fellowship. A small handful (if that) get DOJ honors from Boalt and SLS each year.

or somewhere like the ACLU/NRDC/Shute Mihaly/Altshuler (although it should probably be noted that many of these elite bay area firms/offices will have strong enough Berkeley connections to mitigate some of the difference).

And the difference isn't all that great to begin with. Once you factor in the "Berkeley connections" for the elite SF boutique firms, the SLS advantage gets exceedingly difficult to discern. As another poster mentioned, you've got to perform well at either school to have a shot at working at these places. I wouldn't bet $130K on SLS making the difference for the OP.

[whereskyle]

If you are 100% sure about PI, SLS is the easy choice. PI hiring is pretty impossible, and clerkships and prestige play a big role in the harder-to-get entry-level positions and fellowships. If that's the sort of thing you're interested in (and your mention of a boutique makes me think it might be), SLS really does make a very noticeable difference. It's hard to quantify a difference like this (re: is it >$130,000?) -- because you having the career you want vs not having the career you want may be pretty astronomical. Fortunately, there's no need to get into that discussion, because if you're sure about PI, SLS actually may be cheaper than Berkeley. Let me explain.

Stanford has a pretty incredibly LRAP program. I'd encourage you to look into it more, because depending on your partner's salary it may become somewhat less incredible. But, assuming your partner isn't pulling in a ton of money, SLS + most PI jobs will basically mean that school (total COA) is $0. You can find better descriptions of SLS's LRAP online, but the long and short of it is that Stanford will pay 1/10th of your loans and interest every year that you work at PI, assuming your total income is under roughly $60,000 (if I'm remembering correctly). So, if you're totally positive about PI, and the PI jobs you're considering are in the $40,000-60,000 range, as most are, the total COA of SLS will be $0 for you. In this instance, assuming you are POSITIVE about PI, I'd actually encourage you to take out more loans and contribute to your household, and put the money that your partner would be spending on subsidizing your COA towards retirement, a house downpayment, etc.

PM me if you want more specifics about high-profile PI, or about these schools.

My opinion, based on those of HYS and CCN grads, is that LRAP from any school is not to be trusted. What if your dream job pays $61,000.00/year, in which case you receive no assistance from SLS? Are you not going to take your dream job due to LRAP? Again, if OP is prestigious PI (ACLU/Fed Gov) or bust, then maybe SLS, but not definitely. If OP is willing to do anything else, definitely Berk, especially since Berk can get you to those places with tougher odds than Stan. The thing is, prestigious PI is not likely from SLS either. It is always unlikely.

[abl]

If you are 100% sure about PI, SLS is the easy choice. PI hiring is pretty impossible, and clerkships and prestige play a big role in the harder-to-get entry-level positions and fellowships. If that's the sort of thing you're interested in (and your mention of a boutique makes me think it might be), SLS really does make a very noticeable difference. It's hard to quantify a difference like this (re: is it >$130,000?) -- because you having the career you want vs not having the career you want may be pretty astronomical. Fortunately, there's no need to get into that discussion, because if you're sure about PI, SLS actually may be cheaper than Berkeley. Let me explain.

Stanford has a pretty incredibly LRAP program. I'd encourage you to look into it more, because depending on your partner's salary it may become somewhat less incredible. But, assuming your partner isn't pulling in a ton of money, SLS + most PI jobs will basically mean that school (total COA) is $0. You can find better descriptions of SLS's LRAP online, but the long and short of it is that Stanford will pay 1/10th of your loans and interest every year that you work at PI, assuming your total income is under roughly $60,000 (if I'm remembering correctly). So, if you're totally positive about PI, and the PI jobs you're considering are in the $40,000-60,000 range, as most are, the total COA of SLS will be $0 for you. In this instance, assuming you are POSITIVE about PI, I'd actually encourage you to take out more loans and contribute to your household, and put the money that your partner would be spending on subsidizing your COA towards retirement, a house downpayment, etc.

PM me if you want more specifics about high-profile PI, or about these schools.

My opinion, based on those of HYS and CCN grads, is that LRAP from any school is not to be trusted. What if your dream job pays $61,000.00/year, in which case you receive no assistance from SLS? Are you not going to take your dream job due to LRAP? Again, if OP is prestigious PI (ACLU/Fed Gov) or bust, then maybe SLS, but not definitely. If OP is willing to do anything else, definitely Berk, especially since Berk can get you to those places with tougher odds than Stan. The thing is, prestigious PI is not likely from SLS either. It is always unlikely.

That's not how LRAP works. Assuming that the $60,000 number for coverage that I cited was correct, typically you'd be responsible for some % of your income above that (I think SLS is 15%?). So if your dream job pays $61,000/year you'd be responsible for paying 15% of $1,000 of your loans annually, or $150.

[jbagelboy]

If you are 100% sure about PI, SLS is the easy choice. PI hiring is pretty impossible, and clerkships and prestige play a big role in the harder-to-get entry-level positions and fellowships. If that's the sort of thing you're interested in (and your mention of a boutique makes me think it might be), SLS really does make a very noticeable difference. It's hard to quantify a difference like this (re: is it >$130,000?) -- because you having the career you want vs not having the career you want may be pretty astronomical. Fortunately, there's no need to get into that discussion, because if you're sure about PI, SLS actually may be cheaper than Berkeley. Let me explain.

Stanford has a pretty incredibly LRAP program. I'd encourage you to look into it more, because depending on your partner's salary it may become somewhat less incredible. But, assuming your partner isn't pulling in a ton of money, SLS + most PI jobs will basically mean that school (total COA) is $0. You can find better descriptions of SLS's LRAP online, but the long and short of it is that Stanford will pay 1/10th of your loans and interest every year that you work at PI, assuming your total income is under roughly $60,000 (if I'm remembering correctly). So, if you're totally positive about PI, and the PI jobs you're considering are in the $40,000-60,000 range, as most are, the total COA of SLS will be $0 for you. In this instance, assuming you are POSITIVE about PI, I'd actually encourage you to take out more loans and contribute to your household, and put the money that your partner would be spending on subsidizing your COA towards retirement, a house downpayment, etc.

PM me if you want more specifics about high-profile PI, or about these schools.

My opinion, based on those of HYS and CCN grads, is that LRAP from any school is not to be trusted. What if your dream job pays $61,000.00/year, in which case you receive no assistance from SLS? Are you not going to take your dream job due to LRAP? Again, if OP is prestigious PI (ACLU/Fed Gov) or bust, then maybe SLS, but not definitely. If OP is willing to do anything else, definitely Berk, especially since Berk can get you to those places with tougher odds than Stan. The thing is, prestigious PI is not likely from SLS either. It is always unlikely.

I'm not endorsing abl's position, but you do realize that these LRAPs are incrementally structured right? You don't immediately lose all LRAP when you exceed the cap. You just have to start paying a % of the amount that exceeds that cap. So the PI grad making 61,000 would still have lrap, they would only pay a % of $1,000 (after gross adjustment based on spouses income, taxes ect).

Eta: Haha scooped

[notactuallyposting]

If you are 100% sure about PI, SLS is the easy choice. PI hiring is pretty impossible, and clerkships and prestige play a big role in the harder-to-get entry-level positions and fellowships. If that's the sort of thing you're interested in (and your mention of a boutique makes me think it might be), SLS really does make a very noticeable difference. It's hard to quantify a difference like this (re: is it >$130,000?) -- because you having the career you want vs not having the career you want may be pretty astronomical. Fortunately, there's no need to get into that discussion, because if you're sure about PI, SLS actually may be cheaper than Berkeley. Let me explain.

Stanford has a pretty incredibly LRAP program. I'd encourage you to look into it more, because depending on your partner's salary it may become somewhat less incredible. But, assuming your partner isn't pulling in a ton of money, SLS + most PI jobs will basically mean that school (total COA) is $0. You can find better descriptions of SLS's LRAP online, but the long and short of it is that Stanford will pay 1/10th of your loans and interest every year that you work at PI, assuming your total income is under roughly $60,000 (if I'm remembering correctly). So, if you're totally positive about PI, and the PI jobs you're considering are in the $40,000-60,000 range, as most are, the total COA of SLS will be $0 for you. In this instance, assuming you are POSITIVE about PI, I'd actually encourage you to take out more loans and contribute to your household, and put the money that your partner would be spending on subsidizing your COA towards retirement, a house downpayment, etc.

PM me if you want more specifics about high-profile PI, or about these schools.

Thanks for all of the responses. abl, you make a good point about Stanford's LRAP, but fortunately (unfortunately?) I will be ineligible for most of that benefit due to my spouse's income. My spouse makes ~90k after bonuses right now, and people 3-4 years senior are making about 110k. There may be some LRAP benefit if I take extremely low wage work, but nothing I can bank on for 10 years.

Great position for me to be in overall. Just important to note that in my particular circumstance, Stanford's otherwise stellar LRAP is fairly unreliable or at least unpredictable.

[notactuallyposting]

Berkeley.

The difference between the schools for public interest is being overstated by some posters in this thread, notably abl (who I suspect may be a closet SLS grad, maybe YLS)

Thanks for both of your input as well. I am leaning towards Berkeley. Also, their tuition didn't go up much this year and I miscalculated my financial aid, so it will actually be about 10k less than stated.

[jbagelboy]

Berkeley.

The difference between the schools for public interest is being overstated by some posters in this thread, notably abl (who I suspect may be a closet SLS grad, maybe YLS)

Thanks for both of your input as well. I am leaning towards Berkeley. Also, their tuition didn't go up much this year and I miscalculated my financial aid, so it will actually be about 10k less than stated.

Berkeley is the only top school to have promised a tuition freeze. While I'm skeptical about cost truly "freezing" in absolute terms, at least it won't increase above inflation like the rest of the T14.

[notactuallyposting]

Berkeley is the only top school to have promised a tuition freeze. While I'm skeptical about cost truly "freezing" in absolute terms, at least it won't increase above inflation like the rest of the T14.

Oh wow. That is good to hear. What % should I estimate for "inflation"? I found a COA calculator on here that estimated anywhere from 3-5% for tuition hikes, which is where I got my numbers for Cal.

Also - how much do people actually spend on Books in law school

[jbagelboy]

Berkeley is the only top school to have promised a tuition freeze. While I'm skeptical about cost truly "freezing" in absolute terms, at least it won't increase above inflation like the rest of the T14.

Oh wow. That is good to hear. What % should I estimate for "inflation"? I found a COA calculator on here that estimated anywhere from 3-5% for tuition hikes, which is where I got my numbers for Cal.

Also - how much do people actually spend on Books in law school

I spent probably over $400 first semester, but <$150 this semester. Most of first semester was Contracts. My prof used his own book, and had just come out with a new edition that year charging like $230. Fuck him. Depends on how many books you can get from upperclassmen friends, or whether the profs decide to use new editions.

Law books are crazy expensive, but you learn how to avoid spending on them where possible.

[worldtraveler]

Berkeley is the only top school to have promised a tuition freeze. While I'm skeptical about cost truly "freezing" in absolute terms, at least it won't increase above inflation like the rest of the T14.

Oh wow. That is good to hear. What % should I estimate for "inflation"? I found a COA calculator on here that estimated anywhere from 3-5% for tuition hikes, which is where I got my numbers for Cal.

Also - how much do people actually spend on Books in law school

After 1L I spent about $25. I only bought a book if there was an older edition for about $4 on amazon. If there wasn't I usually didn't buy the book and just found out what cases to read, and googled it. Same thing if it was a course reader. Sometimes this meant reading a little extra.

You can also sell your books when you're done. I got back probably 60-70% off the cost from 1L books by selling them.

[notactuallyposting]

So, I chose Berkeley. The most surprising thing about this decision was learning just how much pride I have (I almost chose Stanford). Thank you for the comments in this thread.

My goal- do my best in law school, and never ever be that annoying person that talks about how I turned down HYS.

[jbagelboy]

So, I chose Berkeley. The most surprising thing about this decision was learning just how much pride I have (I almost chose Stanford). Thank you for the comments in this thread.

My goal- do my best in law school, and never ever be that annoying person that talks about how I turned down HYS.

Congrats. I think you'll look back on this decision with true pride in three years when the majority of your paycheck goes towards your beautiful apartment, new car, future kids college fund, ect., instead of the federal gov't

[rpupkin]

So, I chose Berkeley. The most surprising thing about this decision was learning just how much pride I have (I almost chose Stanford). Thank you for the comments in this thread.

My goal- do my best in law school, and never ever be that annoying person that talks about how I turned down HYS.

Congratulations. A full-ride to Berkeley is a great opportunity that very few people have. Also, Palo Alto is boring.