Help! Advice on which school in T14. Forum

[Big Dog]

Stanford -- best chance to avoid NYC -- is a no-brainer.

[cotiger]

Stanford -- best chance to avoid NYC -- is a no-brainer.

Is it really a no-brainer when it's $100k more expensive and the vast majority of Duke grads also avoid NYC?

[blckwsl]

OP, where are you from? Where do you have ties to?

Coming out of HLS you won't just be able to waltz into any non-NYC market and have your pick of biglaw offers. You should choose Stanford if you would rather work in California. SLS and HLS are probably close to equivalent in a place like DC (maybe slight edge to SLS because of small class sizes).

If you don't have ties to Chicago or TX then you're facing an uphill battle from either HLS or SLS. The market where HLS will have an advantage is Boston.

I went to undergrad and now live in Chicago (been out of school <1yr though), so I have ties here. I have some family ties to Boston and grew up in Ohio. I have no ties to California.

I don't really like big cities, (why I'm avoiding NYC) so I prefer secondary markets for the most part. (I know it's stupid to bet on secondary markets though).

Thanks again everyone for the feedback!
California excluding. SF/SV>Boston>Chicago>SF/SV>anywhere else> NYC.

You do realize that everywhere you mentioned are some of the largest, most dense, "city-ish" places in the country, right?

Sorry, that may have been misleading. I do like cities, but I prefer slightly smaller cities that are not as fast paced as NYC (ex. Boston, SF, Seattle). Chicago is the exception, since I've lived here for a while, and everything closes down by 8pm anyway, haha.

[aboutmydaylight]

OP where are you getting your numbers from, they seem significantly lower than they should be. Stanford's 2014-2015 budget is $82,761. Over 3 years that's likely to be ~$257k. Even assuming you get 21k each year, that puts you at 194k before any interest what so ever. Even though your parents will give you interest free loans, you still have to match tuition so you're still paying interest on ~90k. That's likely to put you at 210k debt balance when you graduate.

[blckwsl]

OP where are you getting your numbers from, they seem significantly lower than they should be. Stanford's 2014-2015 budget is $82,761. Over 3 years that's likely to be ~$257k. Even assuming you get 21k each year, that puts you at 194k before any interest what so ever. Even though your parents will give you interest free loans, you still have to match tuition so you're still paying interest on ~90k. That's likely to put you at 210k debt balance when you graduate.

I took out all the medical insurance fees from COA for all the schools, since I'll be covered under my parent's plan (~4000/year for SLS). I also didn't calculate in interest since I expect to spend less than the school budget for living expenses.

Assuming 700/month rent (cheapest dorm option) and 600/month other expenses, it would be $15,600/year which is way less than $25,000 they are estimating in the student budget. I assumed that this would be more than enough to make up for not calculating interest.

[aboutmydaylight]

OP where are you getting your numbers from, they seem significantly lower than they should be. Stanford's 2014-2015 budget is $82,761. Over 3 years that's likely to be ~$257k. Even assuming you get 21k each year, that puts you at 194k before any interest what so ever. Even though your parents will give you interest free loans, you still have to match tuition so you're still paying interest on ~90k. That's likely to put you at 210k debt balance when you graduate.

I took out all the medical insurance fees from COA for all the schools, since I'll be covered under my parent's plan (~4000/year for SLS). I also didn't calculate in interest since I expect to spend less than the school budget for living expenses.

Assuming 700/month rent (cheapest dorm option) and 600/month other expenses, it would be $15,600/year which is way less than $25,000 they are estimating in the student budget. I assumed that this would be more than enough to make up for not calculating interest.

The budget includes transportation, fees, and books not just COL. Also if I remember correctly, Stanford's cheapest living option has very limited rooms and you can't count on getting it. Maybe someone could weigh in on how realistic it is to cut out ~5k from Stanford's budget because I don't know, but you still seem to be underestimating by quite a bit.

[blckwsl]

OP where are you getting your numbers from, they seem significantly lower than they should be. Stanford's 2014-2015 budget is $82,761. Over 3 years that's likely to be ~$257k. Even assuming you get 21k each year, that puts you at 194k before any interest what so ever. Even though your parents will give you interest free loans, you still have to match tuition so you're still paying interest on ~90k. That's likely to put you at 210k debt balance when you graduate.

I took out all the medical insurance fees from COA for all the schools, since I'll be covered under my parent's plan (~4000/year for SLS). I also didn't calculate in interest since I expect to spend less than the school budget for living expenses.

Assuming 700/month rent (cheapest dorm option) and 600/month other expenses, it would be $15,600/year which is way less than $25,000 they are estimating in the student budget. I assumed that this would be more than enough to make up for not calculating interest.

The budget includes transportation, fees, and books not just COL. Also if I remember correctly, Stanford's cheapest living option has very limited rooms and you can't count on getting it. Maybe someone could weigh in on how realistic it is to cut out ~5k from Stanford's budget because I don't know, but you still seem to be underestimating by quite a bit.

I didn't realize that I might not get the cheapest dorm option. Thanks for the heads up. I'm definitely interested in hearing if $25,000/year COL is necessary for SLS or any of the other schools. Thanks!

[jkpolk]

Stanford -- best chance to avoid NYC -- is a no-brainer.

Is it really a no-brainer when it's $100k more expensive and the vast majority of Duke grads also avoid NYC?

Yes.

[cotiger]

OP where are you getting your numbers from, they seem significantly lower than they should be. Stanford's 2014-2015 budget is $82,761. Over 3 years that's likely to be ~$257k. Even assuming you get 21k each year, that puts you at 194k before any interest what so ever. Even though your parents will give you interest free loans, you still have to match tuition so you're still paying interest on ~90k. That's likely to put you at 210k debt balance when you graduate.

I took out all the medical insurance fees from COA for all the schools, since I'll be covered under my parent's plan (~4000/year for SLS). I also didn't calculate in interest since I expect to spend less than the school budget for living expenses.

Assuming 700/month rent (cheapest dorm option) and 600/month other expenses, it would be $15,600/year which is way less than $25,000 they are estimating in the student budget. I assumed that this would be more than enough to make up for not calculating interest.

Living in the Bay Area for $1300/mo would be quite some feat lol. You can reduce from their listed COL, but not by $10k/yr..

Also, it's one thing to think you'll be okay living in a dorm room until you're 26 or 27. Quite another to actually do it.

[cotiger]

Stanford -- best chance to avoid NYC -- is a no-brainer.

Is it really a no-brainer when it's $100k more expensive and the vast majority of Duke grads also avoid NYC?

Yes.

And your reasoning is...?

[Chrysogonus]

Stanford -- best chance to avoid NYC -- is a no-brainer.

Is it really a no-brainer when it's $100k more expensive and the vast majority of Duke grads also avoid NYC?

Since when do the "vast majority" of Duke grads avoid NYC?

Its the #1 destination for Duke. I see earlier you said only some 20% go to NYC. Well, that percentage is assuming that none of the 50% who didn't report destination didn't go to NYC (see http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... b=location) Logically, you should probably double that to get 40%.

Anyway, I think Stanford is worth the extra money because:
-better chance at biglaw/less likely to strike out
-significantly lower underemployment
-not having to freak out about getting above median
-grades

[lecsa]

.

[Chrysogonus]

Stanford -- best chance to avoid NYC -- is a no-brainer.

Is it really a no-brainer when it's $100k more expensive and the vast majority of Duke grads also avoid NYC?

Since when do the "vast majority" of Duke grads avoid NYC?

Its the #1 destination for Duke. I see earlier you said only some 20% go to NYC. Well, that percentage is assuming that none of the 50% who didn't report destination didn't go to NYC (see http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... b=location) Logically, you should probably double that to get 40%.

Anyway, I think Stanford is worth the extra money because:
-better chance at biglaw/less likely to strike out
-significantly lower underemployment
-not having to freak out about getting above median
-grades

It has significantly lower underemployment? I thought they were about the same.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=226712

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=stanford

vs

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=duke

[lecsa]

.

[Chrysogonus]

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=stanford

vs

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=duke

That is data for Class of 2012, not 2013, and also includes fake jobs (like school funded and non-legal jobs) in the numbers.

So take an average. SLS still comes out way ahead. And has less school funded jobs than Duke btw...

[cotiger]

Stanford -- best chance to avoid NYC -- is a no-brainer.

Is it really a no-brainer when it's $100k more expensive and the vast majority of Duke grads also avoid NYC?

Since when do the "vast majority" of Duke grads avoid NYC?

Its the #1 destination for Duke. I see earlier you said only some 20% go to NYC. Well, that percentage is assuming that none of the 50% who didn't report destination didn't go to NYC (see http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... b=location) Logically, you should probably double that to get 40%.

Anyway, I think Stanford is worth the extra money because:
-better chance at biglaw/less likely to strike out
-significantly lower underemployment
-not having to freak out about getting above median
-grades

That's not that the grads didn't report location, but that the school only provided the top three destinations. Check out c/o 2010, which had 100% location reporting, where only 22.5% went to the "Mid-Atlantic" (NY, NJ, PA).

So yeah, the vast majority of Duke grads avoid NYC.

[Chrysogonus]

That's not that the grads didn't report location, but that the school only provided the top three destinations. Check out c/o 2010, which had 100% location reporting, where only 22.5% went to the "Mid-Atlantic" (NY, NJ, PA).

So yeah, the vast majority of Duke grads avoid NYC.

Interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. Misleading how they say "unknown" so thats good to know.

[abl]

Maybe someone could weigh in on how realistic it is to cut out ~5k from Stanford's budget because I don't know, but you still seem to be underestimating by quite a bit.

It's realistic to cut out ~5k from Stanford's budget. $1,300/m total spending is probably not reasonable, but the budget that SLS gives you definitely errs on the side of being generous.

[jkpolk]

Stanford -- best chance to avoid NYC -- is a no-brainer.

Is it really a no-brainer when it's $100k more expensive and the vast majority of Duke grads also avoid NYC?

Yes.

And your reasoning is...?

EV

[cotiger]

Is it really a no-brainer when it's $100k more expensive and the vast majority of Duke grads also avoid NYC?

Yes.

And your reasoning is...?

EV

Go on..

[3L2014]

I think the best bet for you is Stanford (but if you have some preference for Harvard over Stanford, no one is going to fault you for that choice). If the Duke scholarship goes up, then maybe Duke. Throw everything else out of the decisionmaking process.

[jkpolk]

EV

Go on..

Over the course of a career, I think Stanford is easily worth 100k in adjusted EV over comparably ranked students at Duke (with perhaps the exception of the very, very top students at each). That doesn't mean Duke is a bad school, Duke is a great school, but hyper-elite degrees are worth a premium to certain people who matter (i.e. certain clients). I think that perception has some effect on careers. If so, some effect is easily enough effect to create a 100k difference across a career.

[cotiger]

EV

Go on..

Over the course of a career, I think Stanford is easily worth 100k in adjusted EV over comparably ranked students at Duke (with perhaps the exception of the very, very top students at each). That doesn't mean Duke is a bad school, Duke is a great school, but hyper-elite degrees are worth a premium to certain people who matter (i.e. certain clients). I think that perception has some effect on careers. If so, some effect is easily enough effect to create a 100k difference across a career.

You may be correct about that. But when I think about the extremely short average biglaw stint, the uncertainty of exit options I keep hearing about, and the large number of people who decide they don't like being lawyers and drop out of the profession altogether, the ability to be debt-free in two years is awfully appealing. I'd rather have the $100k cash in hand rather than merely as insurance against being in that 20% band or so that will get you biglaw at Stanford but not at Duke.

There's a case to be made for Stanford, and I may even be persuaded, especially in light of OPs Cali desires. But to call it a "no-brainer" with no further discussion required is absurd.

[lecsa]

.

[jbagelboy]

I think Stanford is an easy choice here. I'm surprised there is so much debate.