T-14s - employment rates in JD required jobs Forum

[lecsa]

Since the fellowships don't really provide any employment benefit, it also leads to the conclusion that it's just a scheme for law schools to game the rankings and mask their worse employment prospects.

Don't assume that everyone who gets a school-funded job would be unemployed otherwise. Someone interested in PI may jump at the opportunity to work in a PI firm making $30,000 through the school; that doesn't mean that in the absence of that opportunity he would be volunteering or out of work.

On the other hand, until there's more transparency regarding these positions and their outcomes, lumping them in with the FT/LT numbers doesn't make sense either.

Solution is to subtract the number of school funded jobs from both the FT/LT figure and the total number of graduates.

Fellowships only became "popular" after the recession. Looks mainly to be CYA. I'm not going to subtract those grads from the total number of graduates because I think it's fair to assume most would be unemployed otherwise (at least at non-Yale schools).

[3L2014]

Can people stop arguing semantics. Here is the question--Going into lawschool, you would want to minimize your risk of being unemployed. Yes, a school-funded position is better than not. But, going to lawschool, you would also want to minimize your risk of being unemployed or being in a school funded position. A school funded position is not a desirable outcome. So, if you wanted to compile data on which schools had the highest percent graduate with permanent employment, lets not call it a crime, because one of the repliers went to UVA and thinks its unfair that people see that UVA has a lot of these positions without realizing how great UVA is...

UVA, if you dont like it, tell your school to cut its class size.

[BigZuck]

We can get some people to come here and scream past each other while discussing the topic if you would like.

Quoted for prescience

[03152016]

Can people stop arguing semantics. Here is the question--Going into lawschool, you would want to minimize your risk of being unemployed. Yes, a school-funded position is better than not. But, going to lawschool, you would also want to minimize your risk of being unemployed or being in a school funded position. A school funded position is not a desirable outcome. So, if you wanted to compile data on which schools had the highest percent graduate with permanent employment, lets not call it a crime, because one of the repliers went to UVA and thinks its unfair that people see that UVA has a lot of these positions without realizing how great UVA is...

UVA, if you dont like it, tell your school to cut its class size.

Can't speak for UVA guy, but I think OP has compiled a useful list that all prospective students should consider. I'm just giving reasons why I think an alternative way of calculating the employment figure is superior.

And this is, basically, a semantical discussion. We're discussing what constitutes employment in a way that would be accurate and useful for prospective students. FT/LT JD required/class size is different than JD required minus school funded/class size, and both are different than FT/LT JD required-school funded/class size-school funded. Employment figures should be a crucial part of choosing a law school, so figuring out what employment means is crucial as well.

[lecsa]

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[jkpolk]

Name good JD Advantage jobs - glorified social workers? Right now I'm skeptical. Also I made it pretty clear what I'm considering above.

MBB Consulting. Certain prestigious lobbying and political-type gigs. Compliance or Legal-Accounting Hybrid Jobs. There are honestly quite a few JD advantage jobs that are as (or more) "legit" than JD required jobs, especially when you compare JD advantage jobs from elite schools against "JD required" jobs generally.

[lecsa]

Name good JD Advantage jobs - glorified social workers? Right now I'm skeptical. Also I made it pretty clear what I'm considering above.

MBB Consulting. Certain prestigious lobbying and political-type gigs. Compliance or Legal-Accounting Hybrid Jobs. There are honestly quite a few JD advantage jobs that are as (or more) "legit" than JD required jobs, especially when you compare JD advantage jobs from elite schools against "JD required" jobs generally.

Most of these don't hire straight out of law school.

[jkpolk]

Name good JD Advantage jobs - glorified social workers? Right now I'm skeptical. Also I made it pretty clear what I'm considering above.

MBB Consulting. Certain prestigious lobbying and political-type gigs. Compliance or Legal-Accounting Hybrid Jobs. There are honestly quite a few JD advantage jobs that are as (or more) "legit" than JD required jobs, especially when you compare JD advantage jobs from elite schools against "JD required" jobs generally.

Most of these don't hire straight out of law school.

You're wrong.

[lecsa]

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[jkpolk]

Show me evidence please. I'm basing my knowledge off post-biglaw careers I know about.

Also a lot of compliance jobs are considered TTT.

My evidence is that MBB actively recruits and hires from UVA and other top schools. I know people with Accounting backgrounds who hold, or have turned down, hybrid positions in compliance/forensic accounting/accounting. There is a real opportunity for some people to go back to think tanks/campaigns/party organizations in more senior positions.

I assume the same/better opportunities exist at other schools too. Those jobs may not account for a large % of hiring but they do exist and, in aggregate, constitute a non-negligible number of opportunities (and are just as "legit" as whatever you see as a more typical career track, you're obviously free to disagree).

[lecsa]

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[Gooner91]

We can get some people to come here and scream past each other while discussing the topic if you would like.

Quoted for prescience

Good call.

[jkpolk]

Show me evidence please. I'm basing my knowledge off post-biglaw careers I know about.

Also a lot of compliance jobs are considered TTT.

My evidence is that MBB actively recruits and hires from UVA and other top schools. I know people with Accounting backgrounds who hold, or have turned down, hybrid positions in compliance/forensic accounting/accounting. There is a real opportunity for some people to go back to think tanks/campaigns/party organizations in more senior positions.

I assume the same/better opportunities exist at other schools too. Those jobs may not account for a large % of hiring but they do exist and, in aggregate, constitute a non-negligible number of opportunities (and are just as "legit" as whatever you see as a more typical career track, you're obviously free to disagree).

MBB actively recruited from my undergrad and law school. But the acceptance rate is 1% or less (at least for McKinsey). It's not hard being "recruited" by MBB - you can do it from most decent undergrads. What is hard is actually landing a job. MBB is much harder to get than biglaw and is based off interviews of case studies that most law students know nothing about.

I was talking about evidence that these jobs in particular are MBB consulting jobs, etc. Until I get evidence that these jobs are prestigious or whatever, I'm not including them in the numbers. And again, the numbers don't really change that much (only marginal shifts).

I don't think anyone really cares what you include in your numbers (which are already available in about a million different places). All I'm saying is that, in my experience, T14 JD Advantage jobs are generally desirable gigs and when someone is evaluating law schools, that person shouldn't be so quick to dismiss those outcomes as "bad outcomes" just because that kind of gig wouldn't be your ideal outcome.

[swampman]

This list is 99% useless to prospective students. A prospective student might wonder, "What school gives me the best chance at a legal job after graduation?" This list suggests that Duke gives a better chance than Harvard, Stanford or Yale. This list does not account for the fact that plenty of Northwestern grads self-select into awesome business jobs, and Georgetown grads self select into non-legal government/policy jobs.

Add in the fact that the percentage difference between many of the schools here represents the career choices of roughly 5-10 students to further grasp the uselessness of this list.

[worldtraveler]

I think my job is either JD advantage or JD required but no bar passage required. And it's definitely a job a lot of law grads want. Without knowing more about what the job is just flat out assuming JD advantage jobs are bad or that people would rather be in a bar required job is incorrect.

[Cicero76]

This list is 99% useless to prospective students. A prospective student might wonder, "What school gives me the best chance at a legal job after graduation?" This list suggests that Duke gives a better chance than Harvard, Stanford or Yale. This list does not account for the fact that plenty of Northwestern grads self-select into awesome business jobs, and Georgetown grads self select into non-legal government/policy jobs.

Add in the fact that the percentage difference between many of the schools here represents the career choices of roughly 5-10 students to further grasp the uselessness of this list.

[lecsa]

This list is 99% useless to prospective students. A prospective student might wonder, "What school gives me the best chance at a legal job after graduation?" This list suggests that Duke gives a better chance than Harvard, Stanford or Yale. This list does not account for the fact that plenty of Northwestern grads self-select into awesome business jobs, and Georgetown grads self select into non-legal government/policy jobs.

Add in the fact that the percentage difference between many of the schools here represents the career choices of roughly 5-10 students to further grasp the uselessness of this list.

I made an exception for Yale, fwiw. Not sure about Harvard or Stanford. Harvard has a huge class so I wouldn't be surprised if some of them with worse grades had trouble finding jobs, and I know unemployed Stanford grads who are looking for jobs.

But the lower ranked schools, no exceptions.

You guys can rely on the other lists that include school fellowships, etc. This is just one metric.

[lecsa]

If you look at class sizes, the bigger schools like UVA, Michigan, GULC have all cut their class sizes for Class of 2016, in some instances considerably. So I wouldn't be surprised if the employment outcomes look much better for these schools, at least with respect to the already tiny schools like Cornell, etc. for the Classes of 2015/2016 onward. (I think some of these numbers are slightly off , and I think they are generally pre-transfers, but you get the idea.)

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