Why is Michigan dropping? Forum

omzster67 · Post by **omzster67** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:20 pm

TheodoreKGB wrote:OP's clearly excited about Saturdays in the fall.

Hahaha - it's a basketball school now!

Bildungsroman · Post by **Bildungsroman** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:21 pm

omzster67 wrote: It's a debate, an open dialogue....something law students tend to be prone to do considering its in our very nature.

You're not a law student yet, chief.

omzster67 · Post by **omzster67** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:25 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
omzster67 wrote: It's a debate, an open dialogue....something law students tend to be prone to do considering its in our very nature.
You're not a law student yet, chief.

Barring a winning lottery ticket or waking up one day with a 42 inch vertical and Ray Allen-like 3 point shooting ability, I will be.

patogordo · Post by **patogordo** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:31 pm

omzster67 wrote: I didn't need to go on TLS to see the difference in employment statistics, I knew them before hand. The original question was to see if anyone knew what specifically it was at the particular schools that leads to the various quantifiable differences.

law firms don't hire from Michigan because it's too collegial and they don't want weak associates

omzster67 · Post by **omzster67** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:33 pm

patogordo wrote:
omzster67 wrote: I didn't need to go on TLS to see the difference in employment statistics, I knew them before hand. The original question was to see if anyone knew what specifically it was at the particular schools that leads to the various quantifiable differences.
law firms don't hire from Michigan because it's too collegial and they don't want weak associates

hahaha alright, I'll appreciate the jab at me

bryanjbay12 · Post by **bryanjbay12** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:36 pm

omzster67 wrote:
bryanjbay12 wrote:
omzster67 wrote:
banjo wrote:I wouldn't put much stock into a school's promotional materials or marketing tactics. Ranking and prestige are also pretty worthless. How much will Michigan cost you? What are you career goals? What are your other options?
I have no scholarship to Michigan (or chicago), and 15/year to NU. The cost, thankfully, isn't as big of a worry to me however. Personally, I want to be somewhere where I will be comfortable and in a setting that maximizes my performance in/out of the classroom. That is precisely why the collegiality factor is so important to me, Michigan seemed like a large family and this was coming from students I have spoken to and people outside the school who know what the feel is like in Ann Arbor. This is as opposed to the supposed cutthroat individualistic nature at Chicago, which I can't verify since I just hear that from people outside the school and just a couple that are there right now.

As for career goals: can't pinpoint this as of yet. I know I will want to be in the private sector, in a mid to large sized firm. If I were to select something that would maximize my interests/happiness I would veer towards IP/Ent/Sports (cue the TLS "that's not going to happen" - I realize this is idealistic, but I have done my fair share of research and have some good connections in each field and across the world). Eventually would like to transition to in-house counsel, sooner rather than later I would hope.

Other options: Uchicago, Northwestern ($) and UCLA/USC with good money but I want a national school which will give me geographic flexibility.
Go to Chicago. Don't go to Michigan over Chicago because of any perceived "collegiality".
So you're basically saying that having a sense of comfort wherever I will be living/studying for 3 years should have no factor whatsoever in my decision making process? Seems rather silly considering that definitely has an impact on academic performance.

I didn't say it should play no factor, but it shouldn't outweigh the difference in employment prospects at Chicago vs. Michigan, especially considering you have no reason to believe you will like Michigan better besides some promotional material and a weekend visit. Don't get me wrong, I'll most likely be attending Michigan this fall and I think it's a great school, but if I had the same offer from Chicago, it would probably be a no brainer based on employment opportunities alone. I'd rather enjoy a BigLaw salary for the rest of my life than to enjoy 3 years of law school and be stuck in the Vale of Tears because I didn't hit median at Michigan.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:42 pm

Post removed.

banjo · Post by **banjo** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:54 pm

If you were inclined to choose a law school based on the likelihood of finding love, you should pick Michigan.

That's an actual quote from Dean Z's blog: https://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2 ... spx?ID=112. I mean, come on. Don't believe anything these law schools say.

lecsa · Post by **lecsa** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:58 pm

lawschool22 · Post by **lawschool22** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:58 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:I'm not the biggest Chicago fan on here (utterly despise the city other than the art institute).

Curious about this quote

What do you despise? (Dead serious, considering I may move there for 3 years for LS.)

omzster67 · Post by **omzster67** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:00 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
omzster67 wrote: I just came back from their ASW and was very impressed by everything. The school and the town seem like a great place to be, and they really worked hard to stress the collegiality between the students and faculty which is of high importance to me.
Don't be fooled by the advertising jamboree that is the admitted students weekend.

Michigan dropping in the US News rankings is meaningless. What applicants should worry about is their poor ranking in job placement. See, for example, http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571.
Really? Admittedly, Michigan hasn't been performing as well as most of the other T14, but calling their job placement poor is pretty idiotic. It's still one of the best in the country, with possibly the most fanatical alumni base in the T14, and I'd be shocked if UCLA or Vandy were to jump them (I don't think Texas, with it's extreme regional bias, will ever step into the T14.)

But yeah, OP, don't think Michigan is going to be just a good ole time. It will be every bit as cut throat at Chicago, and considering your employment odds are absurdly better from Chicago, that's where you need to go. You can talk about fit until your face turns blue, but law school is what you make of it. Every school is going to have dicks and every school is going to have friends for you. Chicago is allegedly more serious than the other T14, but most students there dispute that. Let's see how collegial Michigan students are when it comes time to compete for a lower number of jobs. Most people can tell you, I'm not the biggest Chicago fan on here (utterly despise the city other than the art institute). That said, things like that don't really matter. I think you could enjoy your time there, but even if you didn't, It's only three years. I'd rather be slightly unhappy and then have an incredible life because of Chicago's greater weight than have a great time at Michigan and end up in the Vale of Tears.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=192753
If you read this and still think fit is more important than employment, please go to Michigan and let someone else take your spot who will appreciate the opportunity.

Oh believe me, I know the employment numbers and its prestige and all of the above. I am not devaluing the school, just trying to look at every possible factor that is in play. I was definitely more than just excited/blessed/surprised when I received my acceptance to Chicago. But thanks for that link, I'll check it out.

omzster67 · Post by **omzster67** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:01 pm

banjo wrote:
If you were inclined to choose a law school based on the likelihood of finding love, you should pick Michigan.
That's an actual quote from Dean Z's blog: https://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2 ... spx?ID=112. I mean, come on. Don't believe anything these law schools say.

After spending the weekend around her, can't say I'm surprised. Wonderful lady though.

bryanjbay12 · Post by **bryanjbay12** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:24 pm

lecsa wrote:
bryanjbay12 wrote: I didn't say it should play no factor, but it shouldn't outweigh the difference in employment prospects at Chicago vs. Michigan, especially considering you have no reason to believe you will like Michigan better besides some promotional material and a weekend visit. Don't get me wrong, I'll most likely be attending Michigan this fall and I think it's a great school, but if I had the same offer from Chicago, it would probably be a no brainer based on employment opportunities alone. I'd rather enjoy a BigLaw salary for the rest of my life than to enjoy 3 years of law school and be stuck in the Vale of Tears because I didn't hit median at Michigan.
Lol at biglaw salary for life. Most of the people who leave big law get a huge cut in their salary. Half the people I have known who leave big law seem to leave law entirely.

That huge cut on their salary is still usually going to result in a six figure job if they're going in-house. I don't see how people who leave law entirely are relevant. Regardless, the exit options from Biglaw are a lot better than looking for employment after 3L

lecsa · Post by **lecsa** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:30 pm

bryanjbay12 · Post by **bryanjbay12** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:50 pm

lecsa wrote:
bryanjbay12 wrote:
lecsa wrote:
bryanjbay12 wrote: I didn't say it should play no factor, but it shouldn't outweigh the difference in employment prospects at Chicago vs. Michigan, especially considering you have no reason to believe you will like Michigan better besides some promotional material and a weekend visit. Don't get me wrong, I'll most likely be attending Michigan this fall and I think it's a great school, but if I had the same offer from Chicago, it would probably be a no brainer based on employment opportunities alone. I'd rather enjoy a BigLaw salary for the rest of my life than to enjoy 3 years of law school and be stuck in the Vale of Tears because I didn't hit median at Michigan.
Lol at biglaw salary for life. Most of the people who leave big law get a huge cut in their salary. Half the people I have known who leave big law seem to leave law enjtirely.
That huge cut on their salary is still usually going to result in a six figure job if they're going in-house. I don't see how people who leave law entirely are relevant. Regardless, the exit options from Biglaw are a lot better than looking for employment after 3L
Do you know anything about in house? A lot of those jobs are as bad as big law plus with worse pay. And if you are a litigator good luck finding an in house job.

I am saying many people go to law school and biglaw for the wrong reasons. The lifespan of a well paid career is probably limited to your big law career these days. Most people do big law to pay off loans. If OP's parents are paying why do big law at all. I really wish 0ls would stop giving advice.

Nothing you've said has anything to do with my advice to go to Chicago over Michigan at equal price. And you're definition of a well paid career must be ridiculous.

edit: I'm just as qualified to give advice about which school one should go to based on employment numbers and price as you. The data is available for everyone so I see no reason why you would be better off giving advice about it just because you went to law school.

lecsa · Post by **lecsa** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:54 pm

bryanjbay12 · Post by **bryanjbay12** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

lecsa wrote:You made unfounded claims about big law salaries lasting forever. I am actually in biglaw and a bunch of my friends are looking for in house etc jobs so I know far more than you about legal employment.

Obviously, when I said a Biglaw salary for life that was an exaggeration, but even so, Biglaw salary for 5 years is better than no Biglaw salary at all, so my advice is still sound. And I never gave any advice about legal employment, I only stated that employment prospects were better at Chicago.

I did say in house positions would be six figures though. Is this not true?

I don't understand why you are nitpicking when my argument is solely supporting the fact that Chicago is objectively better than Michigan at equal price. That is the only point I'm trying to make, so even if something I said about legal employment isn't 100% correct, my advice was still correct. You have no reason to believe your advice about law school will be any better than any 0L who has done the research. I will defer to you for any legal employment knowledge obviously.

omzster67 · Post by **omzster67** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:19 pm

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:53 pm

Post removed.

jk148706 · Post by **jk148706** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:47 pm

Mich is still an elite law school with a lot of very good outcomes. However, data indicate Michigan is not performing well compared to former peer schools (used to be MVP). I think the reason it's an issue at all here is bc there is a gaggle of Michigan apologists who will do anything and everything to account for the lower employment numbers for UM.

Michigan still places a good chunk of its class in desirable jobs; it's objectively a very good school. But it's also objectively lagging compared to most other T14s. So it's exactly what it is: a lower t14. I'm not sure why it's so hard for everyone.

ETA: as there are a lot of Michigan apologists, there also seems to be a swath of Michigan haters who seem hellbent on bashing the school.

Also, football.

omzster67 · Post by **omzster67** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:41 am

It's still very much up in the air as to what I decide, and I appreciate what some of you have said. I just want to reiterate, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making comfort a big factor in this particular decision making process. Yes, as some of you have pointed out, I don't know what the feel is at Chicago yet, but based on conversations with many people and reading other opinions on this site I feel like I have a good gauge on what it is like. Now why is comfort important? Some of us are very particular about how we get achieve success. It isn't as basic as pure cognitive intelligence and studying hard. Many of us need the ability to step back and take our minds off our studies in order to excel. Others need a built in sense of collegiality and comfort with our classmates (and former colleagues) and the professors, knowing that "we're all in this together" when shit hits the fan. People need both, or more. Why it is important to me is that law school should not be an individualistic experience, as I've heard is the case at a small a number of high ranking schools. Specifically to me, as an admitted student whose application more than likely falls at the bottom of the pack at Chicago, jumping into an atmosphere where the curve creates a cutthroat atmosphere, and where many people believe they are better than the person sitting next to them is not an ideal situation for cultivating my success. I don't think this should be that difficult of a concept to grasp. The bottom line is, if the rumors are true, I strongly believe that I will perform at a higher rate at a school that presents a more familial feel. Especially as I come from the northern Midwest, where friendliness, collegiality and unity are the most important communal ideals, these are thing I was raised to value. As I have just spent some time out in NYC, I have come to realize that this is not the case for the rest of country (or maybe it's just east coasters), so maybe that is why you don't understand where I'm coming from. Again, I will reiterate that I cannot confirm the rumors I have heard from former students, current applicants, faculty and TLSers, I will just have to wait and see. I certainly hope this is not the case because I do realize the value and prestige of a UChicago education.

francesfarmer · Post by **francesfarmer** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:45 am

Can you just go to grad school for feelings instead of professional school

omzster67 · Post by **omzster67** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:49 am

francesfarmer wrote:Can you just go to grad school for feelings instead of professional school

Seriously? This is exactly why most of the country despises lawyers.

04102014 · Post by **04102014** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:49 am

francesfarmer · Post by **francesfarmer** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:50 am

omzster67 wrote:
francesfarmer wrote:Can you just go to grad school for feelings instead of professional school
Seriously? This is exactly why most of the country despises lawyers.

I'm joking, I couldn't help myself. Sorry.