NYU $, Mich/Cornell $$ or sit out? Forum

[lecsa]

.

[Otunga]

NYU and Cornell have almost the same numbers for biglaw+fed clerks. Smart move says go where your getting more money, although there is also something to be said for enjoying your three years. If you love NYU that much then maybe its worth the extra 70k, and I don't think that choice would be crazy at all.

Not historically. NYU is better historically. I don't think we can make such a statement based on one year's employment prospects. (Are you a 0L?)

That said, I don't really like any of these options.

Yes 0L. I was looking at the past two years. Numbers for biglaw + fedclerks:
NYU 2013: 67
NYU 2012: 65.1

Cornell 2013: 68.4
Cornell 2012: 64.2

But there does seem to be a noticeable gap in 2011, with Cornell at 46.9 and NYU at 54.1. In any case, I would be more prone to make a school decision based on whats happened in the past couple years than what has historically happened.

Is this biglaw as in 100+ or real biglaw firms?

Given, I'm basing my knowledge based on my own biglaw experience and interviewing, but the the NYC firms I'm familiar with really prefer NYU grads to Cornell grads.

"real biglaw firms"? Can you elaborate? What's so bad about the 100+?

[Tiago Splitter]

Only a small percentage of Cornell's biglaw placement comes from firms with 101-249 attorneys. Same is true at every T14. Keep in mind too that Cornell has about 40% of the number of grads as NYU. It might look like the big firms prefer NYU but a lot of that is just the bigger class size. For example, Davis Polk hired 18 NYU summers and 7 from Cornell. S&C hired 12 NYU and 6 Cornell.

Cornell did crush it with biglaw placement in 2010, 2012, and 2013 but was terrible relative to its peers in 2009 and 2011. Not sure what to make of that but I'd guess it has to do with self-selection having a big impact at such a small school. Given their low medians and relatively strong biglaw placement Cornell has made itself into the best option for a lot of people.

[Lavitz]

A part of me feels like if the OP does something to strike out at Cornell (bad grades, bad interviewing skills), if he were in the same position at NYU the extra awesomeness of the NYU degree might not save him anyway.

This is basically why I chose Cornell over NYU with a similar cost difference. I think the difference between the two schools for general biglaw is marginal. On the other hand, my debt coming out of Cornell would be manageable even if I struck out, whereas OP would still be well into 6-figures.

I don't know anyone at Cornell who's planning on working in Philly, but I'm not sure if NYU would be any better.

[Synch]

For what it's worth - our numbers are pretty similar, and I think you can get a much more generous package from Cornell, given what I received. Negotiate baby.

[PrideandGlory1776]

I think NYU is justified if you want to go that way but I'd take Cornell.

Yea NYU wouldn't be a bad choice but Cornell is TCR

[furrrman]

NYU and Cornell have almost the same numbers for biglaw+fed clerks. Smart move says go where your getting more money, although there is also something to be said for enjoying your three years. If you love NYU that much then maybe its worth the extra 70k, and I don't think that choice would be crazy at all.

Not historically. NYU is better historically. I don't think we can make such a statement based on one year's employment prospects. (Are you a 0L?)

That said, I don't really like any of these options.

Yes 0L. I was looking at the past two years. Numbers for biglaw + fedclerks:
NYU 2013: 67
NYU 2012: 65.1

Cornell 2013: 68.4
Cornell 2012: 64.2

But there does seem to be a noticeable gap in 2011, with Cornell at 46.9 and NYU at 54.1. In any case, I would be more prone to make a school decision based on whats happened in the past couple years than what has historically happened.

Is this biglaw as in 100+ or real biglaw firms?

Given, I'm basing my knowledge based on my own biglaw experience and interviewing, but the the NYC firms I'm familiar with really prefer NYU grads to Cornell grads.

Yes these are 100+ firms. Their numbers at the 501+ firm level are also similar. For 501+ firms:

NYU 2013: 49.9
NYU 2012: 48.5

Cornell 2013: 49.2
Cornell 2012: 45.8

[phillywc]

Thanks everyone for the input... Curious for the thoughts of those who voted Michigan/sit out.

[Law Sauce]

I voted Michigan. I am not sure that it is 70k worse than NYU, but this does depend on how you feel about working in NYC. If I were you and you did really want to come back to Philly, I would be very cautious about NYU. As someone who managed to get offers in both cities, I can tell you than the top Philly firms are worried/cautious about competing with NYC firms. It can be hard to convince them that you want to go to Philly and are not using Philly as a back-up plan for NY. I think that they get a lot of their offers turned down because students end up going to NYC. From NYU, I would really worry about convincing firms that you really want to be Philly (you actually may not want to go back after interviewing in NY). However, from Michigan, I could see it being much easier to convince firms that you went to Michigan in order to come back to Philly (and you'd still have NYC to fall back on).

This idea about selling points is a hurdle that can be overcome, so it is probably not worth that much in the overall calculus, but since M is 70k cheaper than NYU, that's enough for me to vote Michigan (Cornell may be a little better than NYU for this but not as good as M and I think that M is a better school for non-NYC).

[phillywc]

I voted Michigan. I am not sure that it is 70k worse than NYU, but this does depend on how you feel about working in NYC. If I were you and you did really want to come back to Philly, I would be very cautious about NYU. As someone who managed to get offers in both cities, I can tell you than the top Philly firms are worried/cautious about competing with NYC firms. It can be hard to convince them that you want to go to Philly and are not using Philly as a back-up plan for NY. I think that they get a lot of their offers turned down because students end up going to NYC. From NYU, I would really worry about convincing firms that you really want to be Philly (you actually may not want to go back after interviewing in NY). However, from Michigan, I could see it being much easier to convince firms that you went to Michigan in order to come back to Philly (and you'd still have NYC to fall back on).

This idea about selling points is a hurdle that can be overcome, so it is probably not worth that much in the overall calculus, but since M is 70k cheaper than NYU, that's enough for me to vote Michigan (Cornell may be a little better than NYU for this but not as good as M and I think that M is a better school for non-NYC).

Interesting... Would living in Philly my whole life, more or less, not be enough to sell them on an interest in Philly?

[lawschool22]

I voted Michigan. I am not sure that it is 70k worse than NYU, but this does depend on how you feel about working in NYC. If I were you and you did really want to come back to Philly, I would be very cautious about NYU. As someone who managed to get offers in both cities, I can tell you than the top Philly firms are worried/cautious about competing with NYC firms. It can be hard to convince them that you want to go to Philly and are not using Philly as a back-up plan for NY. I think that they get a lot of their offers turned down because students end up going to NYC. From NYU, I would really worry about convincing firms that you really want to be Philly (you actually may not want to go back after interviewing in NY). However, from Michigan, I could see it being much easier to convince firms that you went to Michigan in order to come back to Philly (and you'd still have NYC to fall back on).

This idea about selling points is a hurdle that can be overcome, so it is probably not worth that much in the overall calculus, but since M is 70k cheaper than NYU, that's enough for me to vote Michigan (Cornell may be a little better than NYU for this but not as good as M and I think that M is a better school for non-NYC).

Interesting... Would living in Philly my whole life, more or less, not be enough to sell them on an interest in Philly?

I was just going to say this ^. I don't think you're going to have a problem convincing them you want to be in Philly. Basically all you need to say is (1) I have lived here forever and my family is here, and potentially (2) I would have gone to Penn but was waitlisted, so NYU was my next best option, so I could remain in the northeast and as close to Philly as possible.

[Nelson]

I voted Michigan. I am not sure that it is 70k worse than NYU, but this does depend on how you feel about working in NYC. If I were you and you did really want to come back to Philly, I would be very cautious about NYU. As someone who managed to get offers in both cities, I can tell you than the top Philly firms are worried/cautious about competing with NYC firms. It can be hard to convince them that you want to go to Philly and are not using Philly as a back-up plan for NY. I think that they get a lot of their offers turned down because students end up going to NYC. From NYU, I would really worry about convincing firms that you really want to be Philly (you actually may not want to go back after interviewing in NY). However, from Michigan, I could see it being much easier to convince firms that you went to Michigan in order to come back to Philly (and you'd still have NYC to fall back on).

This idea about selling points is a hurdle that can be overcome, so it is probably not worth that much in the overall calculus, but since M is 70k cheaper than NYU, that's enough for me to vote Michigan (Cornell may be a little better than NYU for this but not as good as M and I think that M is a better school for non-NYC).

Interesting... Would living in Philly my whole life, more or less, not be enough to sell them on an interest in Philly?

I would not count on getting back to Philly right out of law school if you leave the market. That said, it sounds like you're OK with NYC so it's not an issue. Lateraling back to Philly after a few years in NYC is a different story.

[BankruptMe]

I think I would wait for HLS or Penn.

Correct me if I am wrong, I am a 0L, but Doesnt cornell/nyu primarily place in NYC? In my opinion, I think it is better to have a fall back market, like at Penn, rather than throw all your eggs in one basket at a Cornell/NYU. HLS would be the best choice because of the reach it would provide. I met two HLS partners at V100 and they said median had a shot at any city...lol this was in the 90s though

[lawschool22]

I think I would wait for HLS or Penn.

Correct me if I am wrong, I am a 0L, but Doesnt cornell/nyu primarily place in NYC? In my opinion, I think it is better to have a fall back market, like at Penn, rather than throw all your eggs in one basket at a Cornell/NYU. HLS would be the best choice because of the reach it would provide. I met two HLS partners at V100 and they said median had a shot at any city...lol this was in the 90s though

They both place primarily in NYC, but I think NYU travels much better than Cornell, and you're probably looking at somewhat of a self-selection aspect at NYU (however this is hard to substantiate; just not enough data). Although don't get me wrong, NYC is by far the easiest market (and most likely one) to get from NYU (and many other T14's as well).

[Law Sauce]

I voted Michigan. I am not sure that it is 70k worse than NYU, but this does depend on how you feel about working in NYC. If I were you and you did really want to come back to Philly, I would be very cautious about NYU. As someone who managed to get offers in both cities, I can tell you than the top Philly firms are worried/cautious about competing with NYC firms. It can be hard to convince them that you want to go to Philly and are not using Philly as a back-up plan for NY. I think that they get a lot of their offers turned down because students end up going to NYC. From NYU, I would really worry about convincing firms that you really want to be Philly (you actually may not want to go back after interviewing in NY). However, from Michigan, I could see it being much easier to convince firms that you went to Michigan in order to come back to Philly (and you'd still have NYC to fall back on).

This idea about selling points is a hurdle that can be overcome, so it is probably not worth that much in the overall calculus, but since M is 70k cheaper than NYU, that's enough for me to vote Michigan (Cornell may be a little better than NYU for this but not as good as M and I think that M is a better school for non-NYC).

Interesting... Would living in Philly my whole life, more or less, not be enough to sell them on an interest in Philly?

I was just going to say this ^. I don't think you're going to have a problem convincing them you want to be in Philly. Basically all you need to say is (1) I have lived here forever and my family is here, and potentially (2) I would have gone to Penn but was waitlisted, so NYU was my next best option, so I could remain in the northeast and as close to Philly as possible.

Yea might work. If they liked you, they will buy this, if not, maybe not. There just aren't a lot of great firms in Philly so its pretty random (MLB and Dechert probably being the top with 3 or 4 right below them). If you miss one or two, you may just decide to go to NY…

Just something to consider.

[Law Sauce]

I think I would wait for HLS or Penn.

Correct me if I am wrong, I am a 0L, but Doesnt cornell/nyu primarily place in NYC? In my opinion, I think it is better to have a fall back market, like at Penn, rather than throw all your eggs in one basket at a Cornell/NYU. HLS would be the best choice because of the reach it would provide. I met two HLS partners at V100 and they said median had a shot at any city...lol this was in the 90s though

I wouldn't worry about this because NYC is such a big market. If you can't make it there, you may not make it anywhere either. Also, hiring is random and no guarantee from P or H in Philly or other small markets. Also C or N can give you a shot anywhere you have ties, not just NYC (as can all the t14).

With respect to LN22, I somewhat doubt that NYU travels that much better than Cornell, t6 is really only a thing in NY.

[chuckbass]

Philly:

As has been said by many before, I think Cornell is TCR. Bigger scholly, lower COL, and similar chances at favorable outcomes. While Cornell would still leave you with considerable debt, it will be more manageable than the debt from NYU, and would allow you to live more comfortably while paying it off.

[phillywc]

HLS is no longer an option :/

Really still deciding between NYU and Cornell.

[californiauser]

250k+ for any school is absurd.

200k is the absolute limit for loans imo -- I vote Cornell

[PrideandGlory1776]

Only a small percentage of Cornell's biglaw placement comes from firms with 101-249 attorneys. Same is true at every T14. Keep in mind too that Cornell has about 40% of the number of grads as NYU. It might look like the big firms prefer NYU but a lot of that is just the bigger class size. For example, Davis Polk hired 18 NYU summers and 7 from Cornell. S&C hired 12 NYU and 6 Cornell.

Cornell did crush it with biglaw placement in 2010, 2012, and 2013 but was terrible relative to its peers in 2009 and 2011. Not sure what to make of that but I'd guess it has to do with self-selection having a big impact at such a small school. Given their low medians and relatively strong biglaw placement Cornell has made itself into the best option for a lot of people.

In 2009 Cornell landed 150 in 100+ firms and 17 in Clerkships (doesn't say Fed v. State/Local so let's assume 10 of 17) with a Graduating Class of 195 thats 160/195 = 82.0 optimal employment placement.

http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... tats-2.pdf

[Tiago Splitter]

Only a small percentage of Cornell's biglaw placement comes from firms with 101-249 attorneys. Same is true at every T14. Keep in mind too that Cornell has about 40% of the number of grads as NYU. It might look like the big firms prefer NYU but a lot of that is just the bigger class size. For example, Davis Polk hired 18 NYU summers and 7 from Cornell. S&C hired 12 NYU and 6 Cornell.

Cornell did crush it with biglaw placement in 2010, 2012, and 2013 but was terrible relative to its peers in 2009 and 2011. Not sure what to make of that but I'd guess it has to do with self-selection having a big impact at such a small school. Given their low medians and relatively strong biglaw placement Cornell has made itself into the best option for a lot of people.

In 2009 Cornell landed 150 in 100+ firms and 17 in Clerkships (doesn't say Fed v. State/Local so let's assume 10 of 17) with a Graduating Class of 195 thats 160/195 = 82.0 optimal employment placement.

http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... tats-2.pdf

Haha wow. I guess we can completely ignore the 2009 NLJ survey at this point. 2011 seems to be the only odd year.

[J-e-L-L-o]

250k+ for any school is absurd.

200k is the absolute limit for loans imo -- I vote Cornell