FINAL: NYU ($) v. Duke ($$) v. HLS - LS22 needs your help Forum

[3L2014]

Duke. The Duke in DC program may be ideal for your goals.

[lawschool22]

Thanks for all the advice so far!

I want to point out that I had two errors in my initial calculations.

(1) Formula error
(2) Incorrect Duke tuition error (I have no idea where I got the initial number from )

In any case, this increased all amount slightly, but definitely changed the Duke number a fair amount. This may sway some of you in a different direction, so I wanted to point it out.

Let me know if any of you changed your mind!

[BigBlackTruck]

anyway, only 2.7% are underemployed at NYU v. 11.6% underemployed at duke

To be fair, NYU offsets this by having 13% school-funded vs. 5% school funded for Duke. I'll agree that those school-funded jobs might be better than underemployment, but it could reduce the significance of the underemployment gap. Just something to consider.

Just saw that your NU COA is $19k lower. That might make it the better option, though Duke might still be better for DC, plus you can try to negotiate Duke up.

[Tiago Splitter]

Keep negotiating but right now definitely take NU or Duke over NYU. I'm really confident that you'd land biglaw from any of these schools so you might as well do it from the cheapest one.

[staysha]

I am at NYU and I see zero reason to choose it here

[Chiller303]

Also at NYU and will disagree with the previous poster. I think NYU is TITCR, despite the difference in cost, for a number of reasons that have been hashed out. A couple things I'll highlight: 1) NYU has a clinical rotation in DC that began this year and helps students build relationships there, 2) The school-funded positions really are a function of PI self-selection. A very, very small percentage of people in that number are those that couldn't get a job elsewhere and fell back on the fellowship as a last resort. By and large, the competition for PI is extremely high even within the school, and those getting the fellowships are people who have shown deep and demonstrable commitment to the public good. There simply aren't excess fellowships for those that don't have anything else. 3) It is important to dig into the big firm stats: NYU is a top feeder for some of the most prestigious firms, including Cravath, DPW, Cleary, etc. Inasmuch as you want to be in DC long-term (if you do), these firms have a revolving door to government work there. If you're focused exclusively on DC litigation for both short-and long term, NYU's DC firm placement in top-notch shops, like Wilmerhale, is formidable. PM me if you want to be put in touch with some kids that are working there.

[lawschool22]

Also at NYU and will disagree with the previous poster. I think NYU is TITCR, despite the difference in cost, for a number of reasons that have been hashed out. A couple things I'll highlight: 1) NYU has a clinical rotation in DC that began this year and helps students build relationships there, 2) The school-funded positions really are a function of PI self-selection. A very, very small percentage of people in that number are those that couldn't get a job elsewhere and fell back on the fellowship as a last resort. By and large, the competition for PI is extremely high even within the school, and those getting the fellowships are people who have shown deep and demonstrable commitment to the public good. There simply aren't excess fellowships for those that don't have anything else. 3) It is important to dig into the big firm stats: NYU is a top feeder for some of the most prestigious firms, including Cravath, DPW, Cleary, etc. Inasmuch as you want to be in DC long-term (if you do), these firms have a revolving door to government work there. If you're focused exclusively on DC litigation for both short-and long term, NYU's DC firm placement in top-notch shops, like Wilmerhale, is formidable. PM me if you want to be put in touch with some kids that are working there.

I appreciate the help. PM sent.

[lawschool22]

I am at NYU and I see zero reason to choose it here

Thanks for your thoughts. Any sense of how ppl targeting DC biglaw did this year?

[retaking23]

Hi LS22! I'm a lowly 0L with a somewhat similar situation to yours (still waiting on NYU decision and Duke scholly though) but given your interests in biglaw-->bigfed and your midwest residency, I think Duke is the logical choice here.

Biglaw will likely be attainable for you at each of these schools and the marginal boost you will get from a t6 is not something that should sway you towards NYU (especially when you consider NYC sky-high COL). Furthermore, I think getting LR and building meaningful relationships with professors will be somewhat easier at Duke because there are fewer people you will be competing with (and this will likely make LAWLschool all the more enjoyable too); it is these last two factors, along with grades, that separate prestigious biglaw that translates to bigfed from the run-of-the-mill-all-I-think-about-is-billable-hours biglaw.

This is all, unfortunately, conjecture but I think there is something to be had about schools like GULC, NYU, and CLS which are often described as factories. In any case, try to negotiate up everywhere and visit these schools if you are seriously considering any of them. Maybe I'll see you at Duke or NU ASW?

[staysha]

Also at NYU and will disagree with the previous poster. I think NYU is TITCR, despite the difference in cost, for a number of reasons that have been hashed out. A couple things I'll highlight: 1) NYU has a clinical rotation in DC that began this year and helps students build relationships there, 2) The school-funded positions really are a function of PI self-selection. A very, very small percentage of people in that number are those that couldn't get a job elsewhere and fell back on the fellowship as a last resort. By and large, the competition for PI is extremely high even within the school, and those getting the fellowships are people who have shown deep and demonstrable commitment to the public good. There simply aren't excess fellowships for those that don't have anything else. 3) It is important to dig into the big firm stats: NYU is a top feeder for some of the most prestigious firms, including Cravath, DPW, Cleary, etc. Inasmuch as you want to be in DC long-term (if you do), these firms have a revolving door to government work there. If you're focused exclusively on DC litigation for both short-and long term, NYU's DC firm placement in top-notch shops, like Wilmerhale, is formidable. PM me if you want to be put in touch with some kids that are working there.

While I agree with all of this, most of it can be said of Duke as well. There's a rational argument to be made that getting DC biglaw from NYU is easier than from Duke, but even if that is true, the difference is marginal and certainly not worth 100k. That's a lot of money.

[staysha]

I am at NYU and I see zero reason to choose it here

Thanks for your thoughts. Any sense of how ppl targeting DC biglaw did this year?

About what you would expect, I think. Getting to DC from just about any school requires top grades. Top quarter obviously has a good shot, but not guaranteed. If you're median at NYU you shouldn't really be bidding too many DC firms.

Also, regarding Northwestern, keep in mind that Chicago is no easy back up plan, even from NW. I've seen people land V10 in DC but strike out in Chicago due to lack of ties.

[ClericalError]

It might help you to enter in the total amount of your loans into the Department of Education's loan repayment estimator to see how much your monthly loan payments will be for the different schools. You'll be able to see your monthly payments for both 10 year and 25-year plans.

If you spread out your loans into a 25-year plan, the monthly differences between NYU and Duke will probably only come to a few hundred a month, possibly making NYU worth it.

https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/m ... tor.action
(down for maintenance today, will probably be up tomorrow)

But another thing to consider is how much you are allowed to borrow at each school. At NYU, for example, if the school low-balled the estimated living expenses, then you will be more out of pocket to go there. This happened to me with UCLA. UCLA said that living expenses for 2014-2015 were only $23k/year which is ridiculously low for the part of town UCLA is in. So if I go there I know that there will be a higher out of pocket cost than a school which responsibly and accurately reports the actual cost of living.

[09042014]

It might help you to enter in the total amount of your loans into the Department of Education's loan repayment estimator to see how much your monthly loan payments will be for the different schools. You'll be able to see your monthly payments for both 10 year and 25-year plans.

If you spread out your loans into a 25-year plan, the monthly differences between NYU and Duke will probably only come to a few hundred a month, possibly making NYU worth it.

https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/m ... tor.action
(down for maintenance today, will probably be up tomorrow)

But another thing to consider is how much you are allowed to borrow at each school. At NYU, for example, if the school low-balled the estimated living expenses, then you will be more out of pocket to go there. This happened to me with UCLA. UCLA said that living expenses for 2014-2015 were only $23k/year which is ridiculously low for the part of town UCLA is in. So if I go there I know that there will be a higher out of pocket cost than a school which responsibly and accurately reports the actual cost of living.

Outted yourself as an actual retard.

[thewaves]

I'm confused why everyone is voting Duke over Northwestern. You have a higher scholarship at NU, no?

Edit: never mind, I see an extra page

[lawschool22]

It might help you to enter in the total amount of your loans into the Department of Education's loan repayment estimator to see how much your monthly loan payments will be for the different schools. You'll be able to see your monthly payments for both 10 year and 25-year plans.

If you spread out your loans into a 25-year plan, the monthly differences between NYU and Duke will probably only come to a few hundred a month, possibly making NYU worth it.

https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/m ... tor.action
(down for maintenance today, will probably be up tomorrow)

But another thing to consider is how much you are allowed to borrow at each school. At NYU, for example, if the school low-balled the estimated living expenses, then you will be more out of pocket to go there. This happened to me with UCLA. UCLA said that living expenses for 2014-2015 were only $23k/year which is ridiculously low for the part of town UCLA is in. So if I go there I know that there will be a higher out of pocket cost than a school which responsibly and accurately reports the actual cost of living.

Thank you for your thoughts, but if anything my living expense estimates were high (conservative). Also I really don't intend on spreading this over 25 years. And no one should make purchase decisions based on the monthly payment. That's a car salesman trick that hides the true cost of whatever you're buying.

[lawschool22]

I'm confused why everyone is voting Duke over Northwestern. You have a higher scholarship at NU, no?

Edit: never mind, I see an extra page

Yeah initially Duke was lower, but that's because I was an idiot and had dukes tuition incorrectly entered in my calculation lol.

[Hitchensian]

I'm confused why everyone is voting Duke over Northwestern. You have a higher scholarship at NU, no?

Edit: never mind, I see an extra page

Northwestern has a higher COA to begin with.

[jbagelboy]

I wish we had more DC summer class information. I'm confident NYU places noticeably better in high ranked vault firms in New York (but I also question sometimes why anyone would care about this - anyway, moving on). An NYU poster above suggested their school could also play a strong hand at top DC firms. Over Duke, I'm actually doubtful. DC is one of the few markets where I've observed the HYS > Other T14 phenomenon holds true. It's not a relevant mantra in New York or Los Angeles, but it seems to be here. Between Duke and NYU, you'll need the grades at either school, regardless of the awesome-sounding externship/networking programs.

If someone could point to specific data showing different grade cut-offs at NYU and Duke, or the DC classes showing a substantially larger presence at V10's DC offices or Covington, Deb, Williams & Connolly, A&P, ect I would gradly retract my doubts on the subject. Someone cited Wilmerhale - how do we know NYU outperforms Duke there? I'm just curious, not trying to throw shit around.

[lawschool22]

Thanks for all the input so far. I'm sensing that it might be wise to consider this decision from another angle. It seems that for me to get DC I will need to be in the top 1/4 give or take, no matter which of these schools I choose. I've seen that it makes sense to assume you will be at median, which means it may make sense for me to assume that I will not get the grades necessary for DC biglaw.

If we look at it that way, let's assume I am median and can't get DC biglaw. Is there any advantage/disadvantage for each school that would present itself if that scenario turns out to be true?

Said another way, if you were at median, would you rather be paying $223k to be median at NYU, or less money to be median at Duke or NU?

[jbagelboy]

I'd rather be median at NYU ceteris paribus. But for $85K? pshhht I don't know - didn't research how median kids at Duke feel well enough during my own cycle to accurately comment.

A third angle, since cost is an issue here: Do you like New York City? Lol. Considering much of that cost difference will be CoL, and CoL is largely an issue of personal preference (how much are you willing to pay for what kind of lifestyle), I wouldn't ignore this point. You are paying a premium to live in what some say is the best, most fun place on earth for 3 years. Others passionately disagree with that assessment of the west village. Have you ever lived in NYC? or a place like Durham? JW.

[lastsamurai]

I picked Duke, but I think it's a close call

[lawschool22]

I'd rather be median at NYU ceteris paribus. But for $85K? pshhht I don't know - didn't research how median kids at Duke feel well enough during my own cycle to accurately comment.

A third angle, since cost is an issue here: Do you like New York City? Lol. Considering much of that cost difference will be CoL, and CoL is largely an issue of personal preference (how much are you willing to pay for what kind of lifestyle), I wouldn't ignore this point. You are paying a premium to live in what some say is the best, most fun place on earth for 3 years. Others passionately disagree with that assessment of the west village. Have you ever lived in NYC? or a place like Durham? JW.

Definitely a good point. Never lived in a place like NYC, just your more moderately sized Midwestern city (big by state standards but not compared to the major cities). I have also lived in places like Durham, but with decidedly worse weather

I'm split about that. Part of me thinks I would absolutely love living there, the other part of me thinks it may be *too* big. But there is some appeal in the opportunity to at least live there during school to give me an idea of whether living in a major city is what I want, since by it's nature it would be temporary.

[BanjoCalhoun]

This is one of the tougher decisions I've seen. I'm not impressed by NW's LST stats, so the lower expense doesn't offset what Duke or NYU could do for you. NYU's firm placement stats are better than Duke's but perhaps not different enough to justify the difference in expense. You may be wise to ignore the DC preference as a criteria for school selection but revisit it if you turn out to have a stellar 1L year. In light of that, between NYU and Duke some of the difference could come down to your secondary location preferences of NYC vs. whatever market you might expect to land in from Duke. I still think Duke is the strongest option here with the balance of debt to employment prospects but reasonable people could disagree on this.

[lecsa]

.

[Tiago Splitter]

I'm kind of surprised that people are choosing Duke over NU so easily - aren't they pretty equal or are there a lot of Duke 0Ls?

I think people are just focused on OP's desire for DC, where Duke places a much larger percentage of the class (13-15% in recent years vs. 2-5% for Northwestern.)