UVA Full-Ride (Dillard) vs. Harvard $30k/yr aid for Big Law Forum

[raininthedesert]

yea i'm creating a legacy for future generations of my family, it's called an ever-increasing mountain of non-dischargeable debt.

Despite the fact that I was genuinely joking (especially about the family legacy aspects although the Kennedy and Bush families might take offense to that)...

I have, in fact, never actually met a Harvard Business School, Harvard Law School, or Harvard Medical School graduate with a "mountain of non-dischargeable debt" despite the pleasure of working with many -- probably the perks of said degree which may have included coming from or marrying into wealthy families. Subjective data suggests that a trophy spouse is at least one of those perquisites.

You should start a thread titled "Harvard Law Graduates with Regrettable Debt...Wish I Had Chosen UVA" to see what gets swept out from under the rug (if anything).

well if you'd like to meet one i'm available for coffee, but you'll have to pay

Lol...Starbucks is out of my price range. In this economy it's Dunkin' Donuts or nothing.

Please invite your trophy wife as well.

[envisciguy]

I am facing a very similar (almost exact) decision and will probably start my own thread when I hear back about grant aid from HLS.

1. The cost of living at UVA will probably be higher than at Harvard if you live in Gropius. Rent for the cheapest room at Gropuis is $771 a month which is the same or less than housing at UVA. It is $686 to live in a dorm setting but it would be at main grounds and you would probably want to live closer to campus which means you would pay between $750-900 for an apartment on Arlington Blvd. Also, you will really, really want a car if you go to UVA which will also be an additional cost (especially if you do not have a car right now and need to buy one).

As a UVA student, I just want to take the opportunity to point out that this is dead wrong. I live on Arlington Blvd in a 4/4 (which is definitely nicer than a dorm setting) and I pay $680/month, which includes internet and utilities. It takes me less than 10 minutes to walk from my door to the door of the law school. There are also plenty of cheaper options. If I had to guess, the cost of food and drinks in Charlottesville is also lower than you'd find around Harvard. I'm not weighing in on the actual substance of this discussion - Dillard at UVA and Harvard with aid are both such good options you can't really go wrong.

[Blessedassurance]

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[aboutmydaylight]

Harvard at 30/30/30 would come out to $195,000 debt at graduation. UVA full-ride would come to $75,000.

this is incorrect. at 30/30/30 the debt will be around 120-130 grand (not counting interest). if you're actually frugal, you can graduate with 100-110 grand with that sort of aid.

it is true your SA counts towards your aid but the formula is actually complicated. an amount for taxes and an additional ~7,500 are protected. so the student contribution is 90% of what's left after the deduction for living allowances (~$7,500) and estimated taxes (dependent on state).

if you work beyond twelve weeks, whatever you work beyond those twelve weeks doesn't affect the grant. also, a lot people don't get an SA for 1L (voluntarily or otherwise), and you actually get money from harvard for the PI stuff most people do for 1L summer (about ~$4000 for domestic gigs and you can get more for international stuff). so for most people, the SA influence on grants is only relevant for your last year.

it's a disincentive to work for a firm your 1L year though.

i don't know anything about the dillard but if it includes a stipend for living expenses you should seriously consider taking it. if it doesn't, you should consider taking harvard because there isn't that big a difference.

with ~30 grand a year in grants, it's not an easy decision. for some people, harvard does open doors you probably couldn't get anywhere else (yes, including yale notwithstanding what tls says). there's a high probability you are not one of those people though.

the difference between H and UVA is relatively wide, that's the problem. it'd be easier if it was columbia/chicago...

eta: this explains the formula for summer earnings vis-a-vis grants: http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... ncome.html

How is this possible if H's COA is estimated to be around $80k? That puts you at 50k of debt a year even before interest/increases in tuition/col. How would it be possible to graduate with 110k of debt in such a case?

[Blessedassurance]

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[sasquatchsam]

1. The cost of living at UVA will probably be higher than at Harvard if you live in Gropius. Rent for the cheapest room at Gropuis is $771 a month which is the same or less than housing at UVA. It is $686 to live in a dorm setting but it would be at main grounds and you would probably want to live closer to campus which means you would pay between $750-900 for an apartment on Arlington Blvd. Also, you will really, really want a car if you go to UVA which will also be an additional cost (especially if you do not have a car right now and need to buy one).

COL higher in C-ville? C'mon man. You're comparing a 100 sq ft dorm room (fully equipped with twin-size bed!) to a 1BR prime-location apartment. That is, the shittiest, least expensive option to the nicest, most expensive.

Looking at Craigslist, literally the first two entries in Charlottesville were for a (verrrry large) 2 BR downtown for $1050 ($525 each) and a 2BR (again, extremely spacious) less than 10 min from the law school for $850 ($425 each).

COL in Cambridge is very high. COL in rural Virginia is not. Difficult to take this seriously.

2. Your financial aid from HLS is really about $80,000 if you have a SA your 2L summer. HLS is already counting a $2,500 contribution from your earnings this summer so your total grant eligibility should be about $32,500. Next year you should be eligible for that full amount unless you get a 1L SA (in which case you come out ahead because of the extra $$). Your last year your aid will decrease with a 2L SA. Harvard has a breakdown on their financial aid website showing that if you earn $30,000 during the summer it will reduce your aid by about $15,000. This will mean your grant aid should look something like $30,000, $32,500, $17,500 for the three years respectively.

3. You might want to confirm that the Dillard scholarship covers tuition increases. Mine stated a maximum value of $164,400 which would mean that tuition can't average over $54,800/year and that seems unlikely given that tuition last year was $52,900.

I don't know if either of these are true, but for the sake of argument, let's say they are.

So with 30/32.5/32.5 at Harvard, and UVA capped at $164,400 (and using the school-provided COLs that show COL within only $4k of each other. ), that results in about $185,000 debt at graduation at Harvard and about $65,000 debt at graduation at UVA (assuming SA).

I admittedly was assuming a single bedroom apartment (these are the only ones I have been looking at). However, the differences you are talking about still come to only about $3,000/year (assuming $425/month rent includes utilities). I would say that having a vehicle will offset the savings by quite a bit. Also, I am not sure what role the spaciousness of the apartment plays...if it is the cheapest option then it really doesn't matter.

If you care to look at the HLS financial aid website then you would see that what I have written is simply an application of their stated calculations...I am not sure why you are giving advice regarding financial aid if you are unaware of the financial aid policies at HLS.

[cotiger]

Harvard at 30/30/30 would come out to $195,000 debt at graduation. UVA full-ride would come to $75,000.

this is incorrect. at 30/30/30 the debt will be around 120-130 grand (not counting interest). if you're actually frugal, you can graduate with 100-110 grand with that sort of aid.

it is true your SA counts towards your aid but the formula is actually complicated. an amount for taxes and an additional ~7,500 are protected. so the student contribution is 90% of what's left after the deduction for living allowances (~$7,500) and estimated taxes (dependent on state).

if you work beyond twelve weeks, whatever you work beyond those twelve weeks doesn't affect the grant. also, a lot people don't get an SA for 1L (voluntarily or otherwise), and you actually get money from harvard for the PI stuff most people do for 1L summer (about ~$4000 for domestic gigs and you can get more for international stuff). so for most people, the SA influence on grants is only relevant for your last year.

it's a disincentive to work for a firm your 1L year though.

i don't know anything about the dillard but if it includes a stipend for living expenses you should seriously consider taking it. if it doesn't, you should consider taking harvard because there isn't that big a difference.

with ~30 grand a year in grants, it's not an easy decision. for some people, harvard does open doors you probably couldn't get anywhere else (yes, including yale notwithstanding what tls says). there's a high probability you are not one of those people though.

the difference between H and UVA is relatively wide, that's the problem. it'd be easier if it was columbia/chicago...

eta: this explains the formula for summer earnings vis-a-vis grants: http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... ncome.html

Let me walk you through the calculations.

Harvard tuition and fees for 2014-15 will be $55,842. For the 2009-10 school year, tuition and fees was $45,026. That is a yearly increase of 4.4%. Assuming that that continues, tuition and fees for 2L and 3L will be $58,299 and $60,864.

Harvard budgets $25,838 for cost of living for 2014-15. Assuming that that increases at the rate of 2%, that will be $26,355 and $26,882 for 2L and 3L. $22,222 of the current 1L COL, by the way, is for room/board/personal allowance/travel allowance. I'm sure that you can cut that down a bit, but note that this also applies to an even greater extent at UVA.

Now let's look at the student contribution from summer earnings website that you linked to. Typical SA earnings are $30,000. After taxes and COL are taken out, a student will have $16,000 left. Per the website, only $14,500 of that will count against grants. So indeed, I was slightly mistaken. Instead of 30/30/30, it will be more like 30/30/31.5.

On to interest. I'm assuming yields on the 10-year T-note of 2.7%, 3.3%, and 3.8%. Stafford is +3.6% and GradPLUS is +4.6%. Simple interest is accumulated on the loans up until graduation (technically six months after grad), at which point it is captialized.

The result of all this is $191,762 in debt owed at graduation.

If you see any errors in this calculation, and certainly anything that would result in the $75,000 difference that you quoted, please let me know.

[Blessedassurance]

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[twenty 8]

Take it from a first year free-rider who works alongside Ivy associates. On payday we’re all the same, except my paycheck is ALL mine. Flash forward 5 years when they finally pay off their debt. True they can revel in their Ivy pedigree but at that point I believe accomplishments, reputation and recognition (such as, on the board of…, Super Lawyer, etc.) prevails.

I will take a step back and admit that their alumni network is damn awesome, especially their clubs where you have drinks and make acquaintances with people whom you otherwise only read about and/or see on TV. I was impressed (as a guest).

[cotiger]

I admittedly was assuming a single bedroom apartment (these are the only ones I have been looking at). However, the differences you are talking about still come to only about $3,000/year (assuming $425/month rent includes utilities). I would say that having a vehicle will offset the savings by quite a bit. Also, I am not sure what role the spaciousness of the apartment plays...if it is the cheapest option then it really doesn't matter.

If you care to look at the HLS financial aid website then you would see that what I have written is simply an application of their stated calculations...I am not sure why you are giving advice regarding financial aid if you are unaware of the financial aid policies at HLS.

Having lived in a small city that's still larger than C-ville and then in Brooklyn (similar COL to Cambridge) I can assure you that there are significant COL differences that go beyond merely housing. Yes, even after accounting for auto costs.

I mentioned the spaciousness of the apartments I saw to indicate that as they were literally the first two places listed, there were probably even smaller/shittier places available if you looked for them.

In fact I have looked at the HLS fin aid site, thanks. The result of that policy is not as clear as you make it seem. I'm not an expert on HLS finaid of course, but neither are you. Regardless, it affects the total cost by $5k max. I give advice regarding financial aid because I see people consistently massively underestimating their debt loads by ignoring things like interest and tuition increases. If you find that unhelpful, then sorry.

[jumpin munkey]

Take it from a first year free-rider who works alongside Ivy associates. On payday we’re all the same, except my paycheck is ALL mine. Flash forward 5 years when they finally pay off their debt. True they can revel in their Ivy pedigree but at that point I believe accomplishments, reputation and recognition (such as, on the board of…, Super Lawyer, etc.) prevails.

I will take a step back and admit that their alumni network is damn awesome, especially their clubs where you have drinks and make acquaintances with people whom you otherwise only read about and/or see on TV. I was impressed (as a guest).

Yeah, just do GW for cheap and then clerk for SCOTUS, bro. No need to pay all that Yale Law money if you can get the same gig from GW.

ETA: Not meaning to express an opinion on this particular UVA v. HLS issue one way or the other, but come on -- an argument that OP should choose the money over the higher-ranked school because you did and it worked out is no argument at all. I'm sure the BYU valedictorian who gets a Tenth Circuit clerkship and Cravath is glad he has no debt, but so what?

[cotiger]

Harvard tuition and fees for 2014-15 will be $55,842. For the 2009-10 school year, tuition and fees was $45,026. That is a yearly increase of 4.4%. Assuming that that continues, tuition and fees for 2L and 3L will be $58,299 and $60,864.

Harvard budgets $25,838 for cost of living for 2014-15. Assuming that that increases at the rate of 2%, that will be $26,355 and $26,882 for 2L and 3L. $22,222 of the current 1L COL, by the way, is for room/board/personal allowance/travel allowance. I'm sure that you can cut that down a bit, but note that this also applies to an even greater extent at UVA.

Now let's look at the student contribution from summer earnings website that you linked to. Typical SA earnings are $30,000. After taxes and COL are taken out, a student will have $16,000 left. Per the website, only $14,500 of that will count against grants. So indeed, I was slightly mistaken. Instead of 30/30/30, it will be more like 30/30/31.5.

On to interest. I'm assuming yields on the 10-year T-note of 2.7%, 3.3%, and 3.8%. Stafford is +3.6% and GradPLUS is +4.6%. Simple interest is accumulated on the loans up until graduation (technically six months after grad), at which point it is captialized.

The result of all this is $191,762 in debt owed at graduation.

If you see any errors in this calculation, and certainly anything that would result in the $75,000 difference that you quoted, please let me know.

show your work without the essay (just map out the calculations, adding brief comments where absolutely necessary) and i will show you where you're wrong. do not make any assumptions on how much things will increase etc. the possibility is duly noted.

e.g., tuition - xxx

subtract grant - xxx

and so and and so forth.

a few things to note is that uva puts it's living expenses at $16,300 whereas HLS budgets over 20 grand. rent in gropius is ~7 grand for the entire academic year. this is to say you have control over your cost of living. hls also budgets "travel allowance" while UVA does not. and so on and so forth.

eta: also the hls loans come in the form of hls unsubsidized (small amount), Federal Perkins (small amount which he'd probably get if he's on that much grant), Stafford Unsubsidized ($20,500), and Gradplus (or whatever lender). use their interest rates in making your calculations.

eta 2: this is not to say the OP should necessarily go to hls. i'm just correcting some things in this thread.

...okay. Pretty sure I did this in the previous post, but if the words were difficult to understand, here you go..

55842+25838-30000=51680
20500 Stafford + 220 fees
31180 GPlus + 1337 fees
20720+20720*.063*3+32517+32517*.073*3=64274 loans + interest 1L

55842*1.044+25838*1.02-30000=54654
20500 Stafford + 220 fees
34154 GPlus + 1465 fees
20720+20720*.069*2+35618+35618*.079*2=64825 loans + interest 2L

55842*1.044^2+25838*1.02^2-31500=56246
20500 Stafford + 220 fees
35746 GPlus + 1533 fees
20720+20720*.074+37279+37279*.084=62663 loans + interest 3L

64274+64825+62663=191762

"do not make assumptions about how things will increase"... seriously? HLS has increased tuition by an average of 4.4% yearly over the last five years, with the smallest increase being 3.5% four years ago. Not to mention the absurd increase over the last 10, 20, 30 years. To assume that they halt it now is completely without justification and is inappropriate with regards to proper planning.

If you were referring to loan rates, sorry but but the 10 year t-note isn't going back down to 1.8%. It's at 2.7% now. If we modify the calculations to keep that rate steady over the three years, it reduces debt on grad by a whopping $1300. A small amount on hls unsub and perkins is going to have an even smaller, essentially negligible, effect.

Again, yes, I've stated that you can live more cheaply than the school-stated COL at HLS. But again, you can equally do that at UVA. That would reduce the debt load a small amount, but it wouldn't change the cost differential between the two schools.

[Mal Reynolds]

You didn't have to do all that. Blessed assurance is an idiot.

[jkpolk]

Go to H. Not even close and I love UVA

[Blessedassurance]

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[Blessedassurance]

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[froglee]

This should not even be a debate. Graduating from a prestigious ivy league school like Harvard, Yale or Columbia in the fields of business, medicine, and law will open up doors to you that you never even imagined...not to mention the legacy it creates for future generations of your family.

As a graduate of said schools in both business and in law I can attest the enormous value of the degree not just for job prospects upon graduation but also for the alumni network, access to funds, and the vast array of other opportunities that present themselves.

Yea, except that for Harvard law graduates, after 10 or 15 years or so, if you can't develop a book of business for your firm, your harvard degree is just as worthless as a Cooley one. There will more than enough young and fresh Harvard law graduates to replace you. But, hey, with all those awesome Harvard connections, every single Harvard law guy should be able to develop big book of business with no problem.

[Mal Reynolds]

55842+25838-30000=51680
20500 Stafford + 220 fees
31180 GPlus + 1337 fees
20720+20720*.063*3+32517+32517*.073*3=64274 loans + interest 1L

55842*1.044+25838*1.02-30000=54654
20500 Stafford + 220 fees
34154 GPlus + 1465 fees
20720+20720*.069*2+35618+35618*.079*2=64825 loans + interest 2L

55842*1.044^2+25838*1.02^2-31500=56246
20500 Stafford + 220 fees
35746 GPlus + 1533 fees
20720+20720*.074+37279+37279*.084=62663 loans + interest 3L

64274+64825+62663=191762

this is even more tedious to read.

let's simplify it.

2014/2015 COA is $81, 900 per the website. This includes a travel allowance of $1500 and room and board of $20, 772. The first point is that this figure is approximately 8 grand above what room and board should cost (gropius costs 7 grand for the entire academic year, internet, water, heat, gym, and everything included). Let's leave the $1500 travel allowance, books etc.

This puts the COA at $73, 900 (let's round up to 74 grand. By the way the $220 in fees are included in the original budget, see http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... udget.html).

Year 1: 74, 000 - $30, 000 = $44,000 (This is actually pretty close to what you would owe on loans your first year).

44, 000 *3 = $132,000

20, 500 of the above will be unsubsidized stafford. A small part of the remainder will be HLS unsubsidized (6%), a further small part will be Perkins (no interest on like 4 grand of the remainder) etc. Your interest for three years on the totality of your loans will be approximately 7 grand give or take. Added to the above, it is really $140 K when it's said and done.

If you don't do a 1L SA, HLS actually gives you like 4 grand over the summer for public interest (I have no idea what UVA does). If you do a 1L SA, it affects your grant but the money you have left over will depend on a number of factors (such as where your SA was located considering the COL allowance is standard notwithstanding differences in SA location. See example Texas versus New York etc.). You also stand a strong possibility of actually getting the taxes (which were deducted) back. In fact, the tax refund, savings on COL (if any), and the 10% that's protected after the deductions, basically cancels out the interest on your loans.

The increases are basically like 2 grand per year tuition increase. Even if we allow that, your total cost comes to like $140,000.

There are a lot of other things that come into play but will probably not be applicable to the average student. An example is the fact that working over twelve weeks (splitting etc) means you keep any money made over the twelve weeks. If you work 8 weeks, there is a smaller impact on your grant (again, note the COL is constant in an 8-weeks versus 10 weeks scenario etc).

Your actual criticism should be that in actuality, people do not stick to these abstract budgets/calculations etc., but that is true whether one goes to UVA or HLS.

Anyways, in short, your conclusion is at least 30 grand off the mark, and I'm being generous. Ask anyone with a ~30k/yr grant at hys.

Another thing to note is the borrowed amount that is LIPP-eligible (if you get a grant and do not apply the required portion to your tuition etc., the additional borrowing will not be eligible...it's complicated to try to explain and not necessary for our purposes).

Anyways, this explains LIPP (acknowledging it will not be relevant for some people): http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/lipp/

Etcetera etcetera. The main point is that you're way off the mark with your 190k conclusion.

eta: I actually went back and read the OP's stated intention of biglaw (generic or otherwise). i feel it necessary to re-iterate that i am not advocating one choice over another but merely correcting issues. also, lol at these tuition increases. i just looked at berkeley's...jesus.

Calls previous post tedious to read. Then makes a post three times as long and as dense.

[sasquatchsam]

If you care to look at the HLS financial aid website then you would see that what I have written is simply an application of their stated calculations...I am not sure why you are giving advice regarding financial aid if you are unaware of the financial aid policies at HLS.

In fact I have looked at the HLS fin aid site, thanks. The result of that policy is not as clear as you make it seem. I'm not an expert on HLS finaid of course, but neither are you. Regardless, it affects the total cost by $5k max. I give advice regarding financial aid because I see people consistently massively underestimating their debt loads by ignoring things like interest and tuition increases. If you find that unhelpful, then sorry.

First of all, I want to say that I really appreciate your efforts to inform the TLS community about the massive amount of debt they will have to endure when they graduate from law school. I agree that people typically underestimate the amount of debt attending law school will require.

How HLS calculates aid is pretty nuanced and requires a bit of time to calculate how it will change from year to year. Another thing to consider is that HLS uses a base loan amount that typically increases less than the student budget increases. In other words, the grant aid will actually increase over time given the same amount of need. The base loan increased from $42,200 in 2012-2013 to $44,400 this year (I believe this number is correct from the info session at ASW but I don't have the paper in front of me). Basically this means they effectively increased tuition for those on need based aid by $2,200 over the last two years.

I would also like to note that I think student budgets are pretty much garbage...you should look at what housing, transportation, etc. will cost rather than simply taking the student budget at face value.

I agree that I am certainly not an expert on financial aid at HLS...my comment was just a reply to your allegation that you were unsure if I was telling the truth. Regarding the clarity of the HLS financial aid website...this seems pretty clear to me. Is there something I am missing?

While we expect entering 1Ls and transfer students to work during the summer before attending law school, we exempt them from the 8-week requirement; however, regardless of the length of summer work or the amount of money earned, all entering 1Ls and transfer students are expected to contribute a minimum of $2,500 towards the cost of their education during their 1L year. Even students who work all summer and do not make a significant amount of money will be assessed this minimum contribution of $2,500. This is a policy set by the Financial Aid Committee and is a common practice followed at most law schools with need-based financial aid programs.

Example 3: Gross Summer Income = $30,000

Taxes: To determine federal taxes for a single student, you first take the gross pay of $30,000 and subtract the standard personal deduction of $6,100 and the $3,900 personal exemption. From the resulting $20,000 you then calculate federal taxes at 15% to get estimated federal taxes of $3,000. State taxes and FICA are both based on the original gross income of $30,000. The state tax allowance given for Massachusetts would be $1,200 and the 7.65% FICA allowance generates a FICA tax of $2,295. The federal, state, and FICA taxes are totalled ($3,000 + $1,200 + $2,295) to get an overall estimated tax burden of $6,495.

Estimated Post-Tax Income: The estimated total tax burden $6,495) is subtracted from the gross summer income of $30,000 to get $23,505 in estimated post-tax income.

Base Summer Living Allowance: The base SLA of $7,400 is then deducted from the $23,505 est. post-tax income. The resulting $16,105 becomes the Estimated Net Income -- the total amount available for your summer contribution to fund your legal education.

Additional SLA Protection & Assessed Contribution: In a final set of calculations, an additional 10% of the Estimated Net Income is protected ($16,105 - 10% = $14,495). This new amount ($14,495) is the assessed SC from summer income.

[raininthedesert]

I saw a Direct TV "Don't Be That Guy..." commercial and it reminded me of this thread.

Don't be that guy that goes to UVA and then at a social dinner with a group of movers and shakers -- who all attended Yale, Harvard, and Columbia -- tell them that you got into Harvard but chose not to go.

<<or>>

Don't be that guy that goes to UVA and then incessantly tells his friends, family, and colleagues how he got into Harvard but chose not to go.

This narrative is akin to the guy -- seemingly every guy -- that tells you they were a star athlete in high school but got injured or they would've played in college or gone pro.

Nobody will believe you. You'll sound like an idiot. And, perhaps worse, you will always wonder what HLS would've been like and regret not going.

Edit: You may even be brought to full blown tears when watching the Paper Chase.

[patogordo]

don't be that guy who thinks hls is some magical paradise worth $100k more than another perfectly good law school

[El Principe]

Hopefully that "DirecTV" post above mine isn't truly serious, but assuming it is, I pray your decision isn't based on his hypothetical.

Worry about practicality, not prestige.

It's not like we're comparing Harvard to a full ride at some T2.

[cotiger]

this is even more tedious to read.

let's simplify it.

2014/2015 COA is $81, 900 per the website. This includes a travel allowance of $1500 and room and board of $20, 772. The first point is that this figure is approximately 8 grand above what room and board should cost (gropius costs 7 grand for the entire academic year, internet, water, heat, gym, and everything included). Let's leave the $1500 travel allowance, books etc.

This puts the COA at $73, 900 (let's round up to 74 grand. By the way the $220 in fees are included in the original budget, see http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... udget.html).

Year 1: 74, 000 - $30, 000 = $44,000 (This is actually pretty close to what you would owe on loans your first year).

44, 000 *3 = $132,000

20, 500 of the above will be unsubsidized stafford. A small part of the remainder will be HLS unsubsidized (6%), a further small part will be Perkins (no interest on like 4 grand of the remainder) etc. Your interest for three years on the totality of your loans will be approximately 7 grand give or take. Added to the above, it is really $140 K when it's said and done.

If you don't do a 1L SA, HLS actually gives you like 4 grand over the summer for public interest (I have no idea what UVA does). If you do a 1L SA, it affects your grant but the money you have left over will depend on a number of factors (such as where your SA was located considering the COL allowance is standard notwithstanding differences in SA location. See example Texas versus New York etc.). You also stand a strong possibility of actually getting the taxes (which were deducted) back. In fact, the tax refund, savings on COL (if any), and the 10% that's protected after the deductions, basically cancels out the interest on your loans.

The increases are basically like 2 grand per year tuition increase. Even if we allow that, your total cost comes to like $140,000.

There are a lot of other things that come into play but will probably not be applicable to the average student. An example is the fact that working over twelve weeks (splitting etc) means you keep any money made over the twelve weeks. If you work 8 weeks, there is a smaller impact on your grant (again, note the COL is constant in an 8-weeks versus 10 weeks scenario etc).

Your actual criticism should be that in actuality, people do not stick to these abstract budgets/calculations etc., but that is true whether one goes to UVA or HLS.

Anyways, in short, your conclusion is at least 30 grand off the mark, and I'm being generous. Ask anyone with a ~30k/yr grant at hys.

Another thing to note is the borrowed amount that is LIPP-eligible (if you get a grant and do not apply the required portion to your tuition etc., the additional borrowing will not be eligible...it's complicated to try to explain and not necessary for our purposes).

Anyways, this explains LIPP (acknowledging it will not be relevant for some people): http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/lipp/

Etcetera etcetera. The main point is that you're way off the mark with your 190k conclusion.

eta: I actually went back and read the OP's stated intention of biglaw (generic or otherwise). i feel it necessary to re-iterate that i am not advocating one choice over another but merely correcting issues. also, lol at these tuition increases. i just looked at berkeley's...jesus.

I totally buy that HLS's aid calculations will reduce that estimate by a couple of thousand here and there. For instance, sasquatchsam's above point that HLS has effectively only raised tuition for people on grants by $2,200 over the last two years instead of the $5,000 sticker increase.

However, the major way you're reducing that estimated COA is by 1) massively reducing COL and 2) miscalculating interest.

If you can live on $1400/mo in Cambridge for 3 years, then sure, COL will be $8k/yr lower. That means living in a 109 sqft Gropius dorm room for three years and rarely eating out or going out for three years. I believe that that's possible, just very unlikely, and so it's not appropriate to use for estimations.

As for interest, you're calculating one year's worth on the entire amount taken out to get your estimate of $7k of interest. But 1L and 2L will have two and three years interest on them. I don't know anything about Perkins loans, but taking your word that OP will get $4k/yr in interest-free loans and your $8k/yr reduction in COL, that still results in $18k worth of interest.

OP can do his own COL estimations and subtract off of the $190k (or call it $185k or $180k or whatever after random little deductions). Hopefully he is realistic about himself. But I think it's most prudent to use as a baseline what the school estimates, rather than starting with the assumption that OP lives like a monk.

[Tiago Splitter]

Take it from a first year free-rider who works alongside Ivy associates. On payday we’re all the same, except my paycheck is ALL mine. Flash forward 5 years when they finally pay off their debt. True they can revel in their Ivy pedigree but at that point I believe accomplishments, reputation and recognition (such as, on the board of…, Super Lawyer, etc.) prevails.

I will take a step back and admit that their alumni network is damn awesome, especially their clubs where you have drinks and make acquaintances with people whom you otherwise only read about and/or see on TV. I was impressed (as a guest).

Yeah, just do GW for cheap and then clerk for SCOTUS, bro. No need to pay all that Yale Law money if you can get the same gig from GW.

ETA: Not meaning to express an opinion on this particular UVA v. HLS issue one way or the other, but come on -- an argument that OP should choose the money over the higher-ranked school because you did and it worked out is no argument at all. I'm sure the BYU valedictorian who gets a Tenth Circuit clerkship and Cravath is glad he has no debt, but so what?

You'll have to forgive our friend Twenty 8, who only recently became aware that it's not uncommon for law students to fail to find legal work after graduating.

[UVAIce]

You can't really go wrong with either of these given the fact that your job prospects will be excellent from both and you won't be paying anything close to sticker. I'm fairly debt averse, so in "my" particular situation I would choose UVA, but I'm also married and have a kid.

I would say that if you're a single person in their early 20's you should go with Harvard - and I'm a UVA student with good outcomes here. You'll be close to a lock for some kind of a good outcome out of law school and doing well at H will do more for you than doing well at UVA in most situations. Unless you have some kind of connections or desires to live in the South or Virginia then a Harvard degree is going to do more for you.

The reason I'm even posting in here is that a lot of people simply blow this argument off. Median Harvard students simply have opportunities that median students at UVA don't have. Your paycheck on day 1 might be the same, but I'm willing to bet those outcomes don't stay the same. A median Harvard grad is more likely to be at a firm that at least pays the lockstep Cravath bonus, if not better. This doesn't even take into account how the opportunities for a top Harvard student are better than the opportunities for a top student at UVA. This isn't saying that no.1 or no.2 at UVA won't have their pick of judges, etc., but more students at Harvard get to be in that bucket. Going to Harvard means you have better odds at every outcome except being unemployed.

But I can see where people in particular situations should rationally be more wary about taking on a high debt load. The question is if you're actually in that kind of situation or not. I think you have a great win-win situation here. If you do pick UVA I think you'll do great and all the folks that I know on the Dillard scholarship or better seem happy with their choice. Obviously anecdotal, but there you go.