Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago Forum

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[Emma.]

There is no job that HLS will get you but that you can't get from UChicago. As someone else mentioned, you are considering paying $200,000 more to attend a marginally better school. I know the prestige of HLS is tempting, so 0Ls like yourself facing this decision seek out something to latch on to to justify spending the extra money and attending Harvard. It doesn't exist.

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[Emma.]

There is no job that HLS will get you but that you can't get from UChicago. As someone else mentioned, you are considering paying $200,000 more to attend a marginally better school. I know the prestige of HLS is tempting, so 0Ls like yourself facing this decision seek out something to latch on to to justify spending the extra money and attending Harvard. It doesn't exist.

Academia, Clerkships, returning to a small market, and for political aspirations, I could understand picking H.

If you just want BigLaw in a major market, C no question.

FTFY

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[Florence Night]

I agree that aspirations are something to be considered in this decision. But even then, I think the proper response ranges from "definitely Chicago" - in the case of just wanting Biglaw - to "probably Chicago" - in the case of wanting something that will be a little easier from Harvard, like academia.

I've said this in other threads, but I really just don't think you can feel just how awful $200k+ of debt is until you have it, or, conversely, how liberating not having debt can be during law school and your early career.

Please take the money.

Academia, Clerkships, returning to a small market, and for political aspirations, I could understand picking H.

If you just want BigLaw in a major market, C no question.

Also, just to throw this out there, based on the people I know who've tried, going to a non-major market from UC is not difficult.

[Emma.]

Why did you crossout that a Ruby would be better for biglaw tho?

Ha, because you said "if you just want Biglaw in a major market"

If you want private practice in ANY market, take the money and run.

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[Emma.]

Also, the risk at taking 200k out to go to H is much lower than taking it out to go to almost any other school.

There's no question that $200K in debt at H is much less risky than $200K in debt at even a school in the lower T-14. But the risk you are talking about is the risk of winding up with a job that can't service the debt. Even assuming that H gives you 100% certainty that you'll land a job that allows you to pay off your loans, debt is debt and sucks to have it hanging over you--even when you can afford your monthly payments.

The question for OP is basically whether it is worth $200K to have a slightly higher percentage chance of landing a clerkship. And I can't imagine there are more than a very few people for whom that is worth it.

[Pulsar]

A major thing you should think about OP is whether you are really going to stick to your (relatively) low-wage gov't ambitions when OCI and $$$ come calling and most of your friends sign up to work for corporate America. Some people fall off the PI straight and narrow, and if you end up being one of those people, then paying for Harvard's potentially better (I really have no idea how much better since I never had PI ambitions myself--I would talk to a bunch of each school's PI people if I were you) PI/gov't placement will have been a waste.

Another thing is to make sure you read all the fine print on H's LRAP (LIPP? w/e it is). Watch provisions relating to spousal income, assuming you harbor hope of true love within the next decade.

Most generic law school applicants should take the Ruby imo. But in the end if you really think H will better help you reach your goals, and you are committed to those goals, and you understand the ramifications of H's cost and accept the bearing of them (and do realize it will definitely take some "bearing") then go to H and don't look back. Otherwise take the $$$; freedom is pretty awesome.

[mnindc]

There is no job that HLS will get you but that you can't get from UChicago. As someone else mentioned, you are considering paying $200,000 more to attend a marginally better school. I know the prestige of HLS is tempting, so 0Ls like yourself facing this decision seek out something to latch on to to justify spending the extra money and attending Harvard. It doesn't exist.

Academia, Clerkships, returning to a small market, and for political aspirations, I could understand picking H.

If you just want BigLaw in a major market, C no question.

FTFY

Can someone explain why H has a leg up for political aspirations? It seems to me that voters don't really care about pedigree. Does this line of thinking have more to do with DOJ/ FedGov/ DC positions?

Frankly, even $100k of political donations to the right people will get you in to whatever network you need.

[OutCold]

I understand the allure of Harvard, and I probably would have taken that over the free ride when I was a 0L. After having actually worked and watched so much of my paycheck go to loans, you have no idea how wonderful it would be to be debt-free. It's a personal choice, but Chicago for free relieves a burden that you will carry for the next ten years or so.

[$$$$$$]

Echoing above....sure you can go to harvard and have $3K of your paychecks go to the Federal government for the next 10 years, or do LRAP (??) and have reduced payments of your reduced salary..... or you can go to one of the best law schools in the world for free and have $0 debt payments. That means every after-tax dollar you accrue is yours to invest, save, buy a house, etc. This is a no brainer no matter what career you want. Don't think for a second that Harvard can get you somewhere UC cannot because in NO SITUATION will it come down to "oh, well he too the Ruby at UC instead of Harvard, so well go with someone else." Honestly, those saying otherwise must be in law school still because even when you can afford to pay back debt, seeing that much money leave your account every month for years is awful. Makes me regret not going to Brooklyn for free over a T-10.

[NYstate]

0Ls don't understand that Chicago is a fantastic law school that any employer will hold in high regard. Spending the extra money to go to Harvard is foolish and short- sighted. My bet is that even Harvard would tell you to take that deal.

[Otunga]

I'd like to contribute my vote to Chicago. You're going to one of the best schools in the country for free, and although you state you have clear interests at the moment, those interests can really organically develop without having to combat the thoughts of high loan payments after you're out of school (which can pressure people into biglaw even if they don't like it much). Even if you don't get a job (which is highly improbable at Chicago), I'd say you're better off than the H grad doing biglaw and suffocated in payments.

[jbagelboy]

Rubenstein. Clearly.

[northwood]

take the money and go to Chicago. You've won, and with baseball season being just around the corner, Chicago doesn't really have a lot of winners around ( save for the holdovers from the 2005 White Sox)

[HarvardHopeful]

OP I'm a OL in the same situation and the more I look at Chicago, the more I think "there's no way in hell I can pass up this opportunity." I have some of the same aspirations as you, but I definitely agree with the above posters that we can't be sure our minds won't change and we'll pick biglaw instead.

I'm looking at $0 debt from Chicago and around $80-$100k debt from Harvard. My mind isn't made up yet, but the practical part of me says Chicago. If I don't like Chicago when I visit however, I have no problem going to Harvard for the sake of my happiness or a better fit. You'll make the right decision and IMO there is no real "wrong" decision.

[Sourrudedude]

OP I'm a OL in the same situation and the more I look at Chicago, the more I think "there's no way in hell I can pass up this opportunity." I have some of the same aspirations as you, but I definitely agree with the above posters that we can't be sure our minds won't change and we'll pick biglaw instead.

I'm looking at $0 debt from Chicago and around $80-$100k debt from Harvard. My mind isn't made up yet, but the practical part of me says Chicago. If I don't like Chicago when I visit however, I have no problem going to Harvard for the sake of my happiness or a better fit. You'll make the right decision and IMO there is no real "wrong" decision.

I'm also in this position (but I haven't heard back from Y or S). I think I'm leaning toward UC, just like everyone is yelling but I don't think it's a done deal at all. I'm looking forward to seeing both schools during ASW.

[WheninLaw]

OP I'm a OL in the same situation and the more I look at Chicago, the more I think "there's no way in hell I can pass up this opportunity." I have some of the same aspirations as you, but I definitely agree with the above posters that we can't be sure our minds won't change and we'll pick biglaw instead.

I'm looking at $0 debt from Chicago and around $80-$100k debt from Harvard. My mind isn't made up yet, but the practical part of me says Chicago. If I don't like Chicago when I visit however, I have no problem going to Harvard for the sake of my happiness or a better fit. You'll make the right decision and IMO there is no real "wrong" decision.

The second paragraph is a dangerous mindset to have. I do not understand why 0Ls think ASW will be a proxy for happiness or "fit" over the next three years. I've done ASW personally, and been part of it as a 1L/2L - the experience is large based on the other 0L's you meet. Meet a couple awesome people and suddenly the school is the best thing ever. But your happiness/fit the next 3L years will be based on non-ASW stuff.

Do you really think your experience at H would be different from your experience at C? Location certainly plays a part here, but notwithstanding that, it will not. You should be comparing job outcomes and debt and everything else is not even close.

[brotherdarkness]

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[Tiago Splitter]

OP I'm a OL in the same situation and the more I look at Chicago, the more I think "there's no way in hell I can pass up this opportunity." I have some of the same aspirations as you, but I definitely agree with the above posters that we can't be sure our minds won't change and we'll pick biglaw instead.

I'm looking at $0 debt from Chicago and around $80-$100k debt from Harvard. My mind isn't made up yet, but the practical part of me says Chicago. If I don't like Chicago when I visit however, I have no problem going to Harvard for the sake of my happiness or a better fit. You'll make the right decision and IMO there is no real "wrong" decision.

The second paragraph is a dangerous mindset to have. I do not understand why 0Ls think ASW will be a proxy for happiness or "fit" over the next three years. I've done ASW personally, and been part of it as a 1L/2L - the experience is large based on the other 0L's you meet. Meet a couple awesome people and suddenly the school is the best thing ever. But your happiness/fit the next 3L years will be based on non-ASW stuff.

Do you really think your experience at H would be different from your experience at C? Location certainly plays a part here, but notwithstanding that, it will not. You should be comparing job outcomes and debt and everything else is not even close.

I am in absolute agreement with the bolded. Law school should be viewed as an investment, not as a three-year "experience."

Very true. But most of the discussion in this thread has been based on the idea that Harvard would put the OP more than 200k in the hole relative to Chicago. Harvard over Chicago is a lot easier to defend when it's only 80k.

[Ohiobumpkin]

Go to Chicago, transfer to Yale.

[chinadoll]

I am completely aware there was a similar topic started the other day on the topic, but it mainly focused on Yale v Ruby and ignored Harvard- Since I have not been so fortunate as to get into Yale- I would like to start a new topic mainly focusing on Harvard v Ruby and the advantages/disadvantages.

My goals: Im very interested in working in the government in some capacity - DOJ, FBI, CIA, or DOS- and so far from my research I have been highly disappointed in Chicago's lack of resources for that type of work. Harvard on the other hand has some fantastic clinics and externships and classes revolving around this area of law. But, of course the debt-free life of Chicago is still appealing and what is keeping it in the game... I just feel like I need confirmation that Chicago can get me the types of jobs I want in DC. and won't put me too far behind the HYS students....

just this year, people at harvard seem to do much better than people at t6's; some of us are still looking for jobs, even government jobs. but that free money should help if you end up in our situation or decide law is not for you.

seriously, with employment what it is, not paying for law school is the only good reason left to go to law school.

[jbagelboy]

I am completely aware there was a similar topic started the other day on the topic, but it mainly focused on Yale v Ruby and ignored Harvard- Since I have not been so fortunate as to get into Yale- I would like to start a new topic mainly focusing on Harvard v Ruby and the advantages/disadvantages.

My goals: Im very interested in working in the government in some capacity - DOJ, FBI, CIA, or DOS- and so far from my research I have been highly disappointed in Chicago's lack of resources for that type of work. Harvard on the other hand has some fantastic clinics and externships and classes revolving around this area of law. But, of course the debt-free life of Chicago is still appealing and what is keeping it in the game... I just feel like I need confirmation that Chicago can get me the types of jobs I want in DC. and won't put me too far behind the HYS students....

just this year, people at harvard seem to do much better than people at t6's; some of us are still looking for jobs, even government jobs. but that free money should help if you end up in our situation or decide law is not for you.

seriously, with employment what it is, not paying for law school is the only good reason left to go to law school.

"Much better" at H in what sense? Chicago can cite equally strong 2L OCI numbers and nearly as strong in clerkship. People at Harvard strike out just as some at Chicago will. If you mean "much better" in SCOTUS & a few prized fed positions, maybe within a very restricted group of the class (very top) but overall, how is this supported?