Michigan($$) vs. Harvard(sticker) Forum

[NYstate]

You don't have to do LIPP. Harvard also has a PLSF linked LRAP like most other T14s. If these are your only options, Harvard is the better choice.

Holy cow! I had no idea. Do you have a link to this information?

And it seems like TLS is virtually unanimous on this decision! I am legitimately surprised. Glad that I came out of the shadows to get your opinions.

It isn't through Harvard it is through the federal government. It has nothing to do with the school you attend. PSLF is for people in qualifying public service jobs. http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/fo ... ic-service

Similarly, PAYE and IBR are payment plans through the government that reduce your monthly payment based on debt and income. It has nothing to do with your school or your degree. I think you can file as married filely seperately so your husbands income doesn't count. http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/un ... come-based

LIPP is Harvards own plan available to its students.

Right that makes more sense. Of course every graduate can use the PAYE/PSLF, but the poster above made it sound like Harvard had a program designed to limit out of pocket expense using said program (like every LRAP outside of HYS).

Oh sorry, I misunderstood. I would be surprised if it is different than just IBR or PAYE but that would be awesome for you. Good luck with everything.

[MissouriMisery]

,

[akg144]

Welp, TLS has spoken! Thank you all for your input. I will come back with my decision at a later date.

Just out of curiosity... is there any amount of $$ offer (not full-tuition) that anybody would consider from a T14 outside of CCNP to trump HYS?

No please for the love of Pete go to Harvard - over the course of your lifetime you will have plenty of tough decisions - I'm happy to inform you that this is not of of those times, enjoy Cambridge sir.

[whereskyle]

I have a 150k scholly to NU. I have no real interest in biglaw, but might try it out. I am interested in prestigious PI/fed clerkships, and I would be in a much better position for my dream careers if I went to H. My debt aversion and my family's location preferences convinced me to ED to NU, tho I applied to H. If I were in your shoes, I'd choose H. If NU gave me a full ride, and I had H, I'd choose NU, because SO greatly prefers Chicago to Cambridge. If M doesn't give you a full ride, I say go to H. If your debt averse, I say tell Michigan that you got into Harvard, and if they want you, you need a full ride.

[MissouriMisery]

Welp, TLS has spoken! Thank you all for your input. I will come back with my decision at a later date.

Just out of curiosity... is there any amount of $$ offer (not full-tuition) that anybody would consider from a T14 outside of CCNP to trump HYS?

No please for the love of Pete go to Harvard - over the course of your lifetime you will have plenty of tough decisions - I'm happy to inform you that this is not of of those times, enjoy Cambridge sir.

[MissouriMisery]

I have a 150k scholly to NU. I have no real interest in biglaw, but might try it out. I am interested in prestigious PI/fed clerkships, and I would be in a much better position for my dream careers if I went to H. My debt aversion and my family's location preferences convinced me to ED to NU, tho I applied to H. If I were in your shoes, I'd choose H. If NU gave me a full ride, and I had H, I'd choose NU, because SO greatly prefers Chicago to Cambridge. If M doesn't give you a full ride, I say go to H. If your debt averse, I say tell Michigan that you got into Harvard, and if they want you, you need a full ride.

Thanks for the input. More importantly, congrats on your ED scholly! Will be great to graduate with financial freedom. I think that my personal love of Ann Arbor and fear of debt may be blinding me to just how great H will be for my career prospects. I'm glad that I posted here, has sure made me do some more research into my opportunities.

[californiauser]

I have a 150k scholly to NU. I have no real interest in biglaw, but might try it out. I am interested in prestigious PI/fed clerkships, and I would be in a much better position for my dream careers if I went to H. My debt aversion and my family's location preferences convinced me to ED to NU, tho I applied to H. If I were in your shoes, I'd choose H. If NU gave me a full ride, and I had H, I'd choose NU, because SO greatly prefers Chicago to Cambridge. If M doesn't give you a full ride, I say go to H. If your debt averse, I say tell Michigan that you got into Harvard, and if they want you, you need a full ride.

Thanks for the input. More importantly, congrats on your ED scholly! Will be great to graduate with financial freedom. I think that my personal love of Ann Arbor and fear of debt may be blinding me to just how great H will be for my career prospects. I'm glad that I posted here, has sure made me do some more research into my opportunities.

Not quite, people forget Northwestern is one of the most expensive T14 schools. Annual COA is above $75k, even with the $150k scholarship, you'll still have non-neglible debt if you go into law school with no savings/family help.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I have a 150k scholly to NU. I have no real interest in biglaw, but might try it out. I am interested in prestigious PI/fed clerkships, and I would be in a much better position for my dream careers if I went to H. My debt aversion and my family's location preferences convinced me to ED to NU, tho I applied to H. If I were in your shoes, I'd choose H. If NU gave me a full ride, and I had H, I'd choose NU, because SO greatly prefers Chicago to Cambridge. If M doesn't give you a full ride, I say go to H. If your debt averse, I say tell Michigan that you got into Harvard, and if they want you, you need a full ride.

Thanks for the input. More importantly, congrats on your ED scholly! Will be great to graduate with financial freedom. I think that my personal love of Ann Arbor and fear of debt may be blinding me to just how great H will be for my career prospects. I'm glad that I posted here, has sure made me do some more research into my opportunities.

Not quite, people forget Northwestern is one of the most expensive T14 schools. Annual COA is above $75k, even with the $150k scholarship, you'll still have non-neglible debt if you go into law school with no savings/family help.

ITE having a net worth of only -$60k-ish counts as "financial freedom."

[ColbyBryant]

ITE having a net worth of only -$60k-ish counts as "financial freedom."

It is all relative. 60k of debt vs 225k before interest... enormous difference. In my situation (see my OP) if I had a 150k scholarship from NU I would graduate with absolutely no debt. However, given our love of Ann Arbor and my acceptance to Harvard, they really are the only two in the running. (I would take 90k to Michigan over, say, 105 or 120k to NU any day.)

And it looks like TLS would take Harvard over either.

[cotiger]

ITE having a net worth of only -$60k-ish counts as "financial freedom."

It is all relative. 60k of debt vs 225k before interest... enormous difference. In my situation (see my OP) if I had a 150k scholarship from NU I would graduate with absolutely no debt. However, given our love of Ann Arbor and my acceptance to Harvard, they really are the only two in the running. (I would take 90k to Michigan over, say, 105 or 120k to NU any day.)

And it looks like TLS would take Harvard over either.

If you got an initial award of 30/yr from Michigan, there's a great chance of getting $150k from NU. Definitely apply for those scholarships. Graduating debt-free from a T14 law school vs 175k in the hole (even if it is Harvard) sounds like a no-brainer to me.

I have to say I'm surprised that the lurkers are giving H such a landslide here. Any pro-Harvard people care to share their reasoning?

[ColbyBryant]

If you got an initial award of 30/yr from Michigan, there's a great chance of getting $150k from NU. Definitely apply for those scholarships. Graduating debt-free from a T14 law school vs 175k in the hole (even if it is Harvard) sounds like a no-brainer to me.

I have to say I'm surprised that the lurkers are giving H such a landslide here. Any pro-Harvard people care to share their reasoning?

Interesting. I (of course) am surprised too of the landslide. I've had racing dreams the last couple of nights about the prospect of all that debt. Michigan does pretty well for itself all things considered. This is a very difficult decision! I agree...Harvard voters... Can we be specific with reasons? Thanks

[jingosaur]

I have to say I'm surprised that the lurkers are giving H such a landslide here. Any pro-Harvard people care to share their reasoning?

So I said Harvard because OP wants to do clerking and/or public interest and HLS has a big enough advantage over Michigan in those two areas.

HLS's clerkship placement is more than double Michigan's and I would venture to say that someone from HLS has a much better than 2x chance of getting a clerkship out of HLS, but it's hard to really know due to factors like self-selection. HLS can potentially boost OP's chances of a clerkship by 3 or 4 times.

HLS has much better resources for Public Interest than Michigan. HLS has a program that guarantees summer public interest funding and they now have a PI venture capital fund if OP found a cause she was very passionate about. In addition to LIPP and the network power that Harvard has over Michigan, going the PI route is probably much more possible (although OP may have issues where LIPP may not work in her case).

When it comes to cost, it's definitely hard to pay an extra $90k for school when you don't have to, but I think it's worth it for someone with goals that are very difficult to achieve in today's economy. It seems like OP has/will have the resources to pay off the additional $90k (and after LIPP and financial aid it may be much less than a $90k difference) and if OP goes to Michigan and then doesn't land a clerkship or a PI fellowship (which is a likely scenario), then OP will still have about $60k in loans without the career she wants. I don't think that's a good risk to take when you don't have to take it.

[Tiago Splitter]

If you got an initial award of 30/yr from Michigan, there's a great chance of getting $150k from NU. Definitely apply for those scholarships. Graduating debt-free from a T14 law school vs 175k in the hole (even if it is Harvard) sounds like a no-brainer to me.

I have to say I'm surprised that the lurkers are giving H such a landslide here. Any pro-Harvard people care to share their reasoning?

Because it isn't a Michigan full ride

[whereskyle]

I have to say I'm surprised that the lurkers are giving H such a landslide here. Any pro-Harvard people care to share their reasoning?

So I said Harvard because OP wants to do clerking and/or public interest and HLS has a big enough advantage over Michigan in those two areas.

HLS's clerkship placement is more than double Michigan's and I would venture to say that someone from HLS has a much better than 2x chance of getting a clerkship out of HLS, but it's hard to really know due to factors like self-selection. HLS can potentially boost OP's chances of a clerkship by 3 or 4 times.

HLS has much better resources for Public Interest than Michigan. HLS has a program that guarantees summer public interest funding and they now have a PI venture capital fund if OP found a cause she was very passionate about. In addition to LIPP and the network power that Harvard has over Michigan, going the PI route is probably much more possible (although OP may have issues where LIPP may not work in her case).

When it comes to cost, it's definitely hard to pay an extra $90k for school when you don't have to, but I think it's worth it for someone with goals that are very difficult to achieve in today's economy. It seems like OP has/will have the resources to pay off the additional $90k (and after LIPP and financial aid it may be much less than a $90k difference) and if OP goes to Michigan and then doesn't land a clerkship or a PI fellowship (which is a likely scenario), then OP will still have about $60k in loans without the career she wants. I don't think that's a good risk to take when you don't have to take it.

This is a good point. If prestigious PI is the end all be all, then it has to be H. I have a friend who graduated from M (idk his grades) who has a great heart and mind (opinion), who is doing local PI in the vein of DV/landlord-tenant/social services work: inglorious but important stuff. When I decided that I would enjoy/perhaps even love this less glorious type of work (I've even decided that criminal defense might be for me), I made the decision to attend school at the lowest possible cost, while giving myself a chance at fed clerkships/prestigious PI by attending a T14. If small law of this sort is not desirable to OP, then OP has to go to H.

[worldtraveler]

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

[jingosaur]

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

I think it's more that people come in with a set type of public interest work that they want to do and in many cases, that set type is harder to get than an average public interest job. So it's more that they want to help people in a certain way, and that way happens to be prestigious.

[whereskyle]

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

Yeah, worldtraveler, I think it has to do with people feeling that they want to be part of "big", "real" change (I.e., massive political overhaul). Learning about the way law evolves over time, tho, and the changes that "small lawyers" can help to bring about may help people see that there are fruits to the labor of unprestigious PI. Of course, it becomes sort of "prestigious" when NPR picks up the story of your little known community law clinic.

[NYstate]

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

Yeah, worldtraveler, I think it has to do with people feeling that they want to be part of "big", "real" change (I.e., massive political overhaul). Learning about the way law evolves over time, tho, and the changes that "small lawyers" can help to bring about may help people see that there are fruits to the labor of unprestigious PI. Of course, it becomes sort of "prestigious" when NPR picks up the story of your little known community law clinic.

Lol. Yes, go to Harvard because that is the only way to help save the world through big, real change.

I recommended Harvard because Michigan is vastly over rated and she isn't getting enough money. Not because Harvard is the only way to solve world problems.

I mean, can you even hear yourself?? I know TLS has its share of prestige-whores but this takes it to a level I don't recall ever seeing here before. I mean we all know the world is run by Harvard grads so you have to be one to make a big, real difference in the world.

Sorry, I can't stop laughing here.

[KD35]

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

Lol love that...never thought of that. But I do agree with posters above, I think it is that certain people only want to do certain types of PI work for what they would be doing in that field, rather than the name attached to it. Or it could be a mix of both.

[NYstate]

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

Lol love that...never thought of that. But I do agree with posters above, I think it is that certain people only want to do certain types of PI work for what they would be doing in that field, rather than the name attached to it. Or it could be a mix of both.

Well, when you work with "big", "real" change you don't actually have to go to immigration court to help someone from being deported, or help someone get food stamps or not be railroaded by the criminal justice system. You can stand back and watch from afar as you make the real, big changes that are going to transform the world.

[whereskyle]

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

I think it's more that people come in with a set type of public interest work that they want to do and in many cases, that set type is harder to get than an average public interest job. So it's more that they want to help people in a certain way, and that way happens to be prestigious.

I'll project here. Can folks going to H reasonably expect to be a part of a prestigious and impactful effort to reform criminal drug laws, whereas someone from M cannot? Is a criminal defense attorney from Southwestern (a school in L.A.) who represents 20 year olds facing 11 year sentences for trafficking not a significant part of that effort?

[Tiago Splitter]

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

Yeah, worldtraveler, I think it has to do with people feeling that they want to be part of "big", "real" change (I.e., massive political overhaul). Learning about the way law evolves over time, tho, and the changes that "small lawyers" can help to bring about may help people see that there are fruits to the labor of unprestigious PI. Of course, it becomes sort of "prestigious" when NPR picks up the story of your little known community law clinic.

Lol. Yes, go to Harvard because that is the only way to help save the world through big, real change.

I recommended Harvard because Michigan is vastly over rated and she isn't getting enough money. Not because Harvard is the only way to solve world problems.

I mean, can you even hear yourself?? I know TLS has its share of prestige-whores but this takes it to a level I don't recall ever seeing here before. I mean we all know the world is run by Harvard grads so you have to be one to make a big, real difference in the world.

Sorry, I can't stop laughing here.

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

I think it's more that people come in with a set type of public interest work that they want to do and in many cases, that set type is harder to get than an average public interest job. So it's more that they want to help people in a certain way, and that way happens to be prestigious.

I'll project here. Can folks going to H reasonably expect to be a part of a prestigious and impactful effort to reform criminal drug laws, whereas someone from M cannot? Is a criminal defense attorney from Southwestern (a school in L.A.) who represents 20 year olds facing 11 year sentences for trafficking not a significant part of that effort?

I like how stupid NYstate's post looks in light of this.

[Big Dog]

I vote H unless you can negotiate with Mich for more money. (Hopefully, you applied to a few of their peers for leverage.)

[cotiger]

I'm not convinced. First of all, OP will continue to get scholarship offers, so this 90k from Michigan is likely not going to be final. If she has the numbers/resume to get a Harvard acceptance and a 90k first offer from Mich (I think the highest initial offers they give outside of the Darrow), then she's likely to get big-time money from Northwestern/Cornell/Duke, perhaps even UVA. With no geographical preferences, she would likely prefer one of those, or at the very least negotiate her Mich offer upwards.

Next, it seems the case for H has been increased clerkship and "prestigious" PI opportunities. Clerking is a one-year gig and a very unlikely outcome, even from Harvard, and personally I wouldn't stake a major financial decision on that. As for increased prestigious PI, OP is not going to qualify for LIPP due to her husband's income. This means that she'll have to work in biglaw first for several years to pay off her $175k in debt. She's not going to be able to take one of those fellowships, even if she could get it. And anyways, she doesn't seem to be particularly focused on anything in particular at this point in time, which makes me value the freedom from debt even more.

I'd probably go to Michigan at 90k in her particular situation (especially considering LIPP disqualification), but if that becomes NU/Cornell at 120/150k or Duke/UVA/Mich at 105k (which I think it likely will), it becomes even more of a clear choice for me.

[northwood]

are there any other schools that you have not heard back from/ scholarships that you are awaiting a response to?

If you can get into H, and a scholarship to M, there should be other options available to you.