Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard Forum

[twenty]

This is quickly becoming silly because we have zero understanding of OP's need-based aid situation. If OP is thinking they'll get need based aid because their parents live in a box on the side of a freeway, 100k is probably on the high end of what OP will actually pay. If OP considers his/her 50k in the bank insignificant and has parents that are willing to pay for half of law school, then I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the cost of attendance to be upward of 200k.

[LSATSCORES2012]

Unquestioningly, the best LRAP is the kind where you don't pay anything because you went to school for free.

Some PI jobs are actually very high paying

This is going to be especially true if you can pull off a fed job that goes to GS-14, which it sounds like the OP wants.

The reason I say Yale is actually pretty simple. UChicago put 14.4% of their students in federal clerkships, while Yale put in over a third. In 2011, Chicago put <10% in A3, and Yale still put a third in. No matter what happens, Yale has a substantial edge on UChicago when it comes to A3.

If OP had even said, "I'm considering biglaw as a back up" I would be the first person to jump on the UChicago train. Not having any debt coming out of one of the top law schools in the country is terrific. But when OP wants to be in DC, wants to work in international human rights law, wants to go for a clerkship, etc. that all screams Yale.

Could OP get that from Chicago, too? No doubt. Will going to Yale increase the chances of getting that? No doubt. Is that financial distance worth 100k? I vote yes.

If you're not willing to take a job that you could get from either CCNP or Yale then you probably shouldn't go to law school, because regardless of which school you choose to attend there's a good chance you won't make it.

So, "I'll accept biglaw [or insert non-super-prestigious-and-difficult-to-obtain-PI-position-here(seems to be more OP's cup of tea)] as a backup" is either implied or OP probably shouldn't go to law school.

[jselson]

Given the nature of the kind of people who get into Yale, I can't think of a single reason why they should not go there. Maybe Harvard wins if you have political aspirations and lots of money, or Stanford if you want Silicon Valley IP. Otherwise, Yale.

[20141023]

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[NYstate]

Go to Chicago. Don't listen to 0Ls who know nothing about jobs or debt repayment. Yale is amazing but it isn't worth the debt. If you want, contact Yale and talk to them about your choices and ask them about how they can help you reach your extremely difficult goal and then ask Chicago the same questions.

[legends159]

Agreed with above. Seems like the yale crowd are 0Ls and the scholarship crowd are actual practicing attorneys. I vote for Ruby since your goals may change and being debt free is really freaking awesome. And trust me - when you're a law student or a practicing attorney, no one cares if you went to yale or chicago. plus i would think a ruby on resume is much more impressive than a yale jd just based on rarity alone. also maybe it's just me but i would think it was a very mature decision to pick a ruby over the higher ranking as it's a safe assumption that the subset of students with rubys get into almost every school.

i went to law school dead set that i wanted to clerk and do immigration law - it was actually why i decided to go to law school rather than go into academics; but after working for a judge and doing pro bono at immigration clinics i realized i had no idea as a 0L what the day to day life would be like and how i might hate certain aspects of it (i.e., the bureaucracy; repetitiveness; lack of appreciation; feeling of hopelessness since the system is so entrenched etc.).

[worldtraveler]

I think we need to either discourage 0Ls from giving advice or require people to post whether they are a student, attorney, or neither. There is a lot of stuff you just don't realize until you're on the other side.

[jselson]

I'm a 1L, chose HLS over Chi at 90k, with similar goals to OP, and haven't worried much about debt or the job market since, and know almost no one here who really has. I'm very happy with the decision. If I had been in the OP's position, I would've gone to Yale.

[chizzy]

OP i would suggest reading this article written by asha concerning paying sticker at yale, which is really good advice:

http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... shock.aspx

[NYstate]

I'm a 1L, chose HLS over Chi at 90k, with similar goals to OP, and haven't worried much about debt or the job market since, and know almost no one here who really has. I'm very happy with the decision. If I had been in the OP's position, I would've gone to Yale.

What was the actual cost difference for you? Are you at sticker at Harvard?OP is looking at a full ride plus stipend. It isn't clear that Yale offers a much greater chance to reach her goals. Chicago probably would have been fine for you as well.

Most 1Ls aren't thinking about repaying debt. Most of them don't even know what their loan balance is now,or will be at graduation. It seems to only be after graduation that people start to understand the burden of debt. I've seen Harvard grads here say they wished they had taken money they turned down, after they've graduated and had to begin to repay. Not saying everyone feels that way, but definitely some do.

I am sure there are people at Harvard sweating the job market. We have seen some threads here asking for number of Hs needed,etc.

[NYstate]

OP i would suggest reading this article written by asha concerning paying sticker at yale, which is really good advice:

http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... shock.aspx

Well, of course Asha thinks Yale is worth it compared to state schools, as the questionnaire asked. She isn't comparing a full ride plus stipend at Chicago to sticker at Yale. Even so she would have to advocate for Yale because that is her school.

Yale is TCR for academia, it can't make the same claim for OPs goals which are even more unlikely than academia. At least I don't think it can, which is why OP should investigate. Straight up at the same cost I would choose Yale. But OP has a fantastic scholarship to.a school.that is equally likely to help her reach her goals.

[Emma.]

I'm a 1L, chose HLS over Chi at 90k, with similar goals to OP, and haven't worried much about debt or the job market since, and know almost no one here who really has. I'm very happy with the decision. If I had been in the OP's position, I would've gone to Yale.

Lol. Wait until you graduate and start making loan payments.

[Nelson]

I'm a 1L, chose HLS over Chi at 90k, with similar goals to OP, and haven't worried much about debt or the job market since, and know almost no one here who really has. I'm very happy with the decision. If I had been in the OP's position, I would've gone to Yale.

Lol. Wait until you graduate and start making loan payments.

So much this.

[hung jury]

OP i would suggest reading this article written by asha concerning paying sticker at yale, which is really good advice:

http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... shock.aspx

Don't ask the barber if you need a haircut.

[jselson]

I'm a 1L, chose HLS over Chi at 90k, with similar goals to OP, and haven't worried much about debt or the job market since, and know almost no one here who really has. I'm very happy with the decision. If I had been in the OP's position, I would've gone to Yale.

Lol. Wait until you graduate and start making loan payments.

So much this.

I've done the math (yes, at sticker, no, my parents aren't helping), and I think I'll be fine.

[Pulsar]

Aside: Regulus is there any faint hope that the increase in stipend size applies to incumbent Ruby classes? Where did you hear about it? The check for winter quarter was the same size as usual.

EDIT: OP just remember that if you take on a huge pile of debt it will follow you and effect your life choices for a decade, which given how young you probably are is an almost incomprehensibly long time. Be careful. And be sure that you are really passionate and committed to a non-firm path. Lots of PI/gubmint types flake out along the way, and if you go to Yale and do that you'll probably end up in the same place you would have been had you gone to Chicago, except poor when you could have been rich.

[Emma.]

I'm a 1L, chose HLS over Chi at 90k, with similar goals to OP, and haven't worried much about debt or the job market since, and know almost no one here who really has. I'm very happy with the decision. If I had been in the OP's position, I would've gone to Yale.

Lol. Wait until you graduate and start making loan payments.

So much this.

I've done the math (yes, at sticker, no, my parents aren't helping), and I think I'll be fine.

Doing the math is very different from actually making the payments.

[AllTheLawz]

I'm a 1L, chose HLS over Chi at 90k, with similar goals to OP, and haven't worried much about debt or the job market since, and know almost no one here who really has. I'm very happy with the decision. If I had been in the OP's position, I would've gone to Yale.

Lol. Wait until you graduate and start making loan payments.

So much this.

I've done the math (yes, at sticker, no, my parents aren't helping), and I think I'll be fine.

As a counter this, my choice was HYS vs full-scholarship (plus stipend in a number of cases) at most of the non-HYS top 10. While I don't necessarily regret choosing H (I have the a very good job offer in my field) I do wonder if it was worth it in incremental terms as I make my budget for after graduation. I have the maximum aid you can get at HLS while doing a 2L SA and that still results in 5 years of ~$2500/month loan payments, 5 years of delaying a home or having children and 5 years without the freedom that should be associated with my income level. If I would've taken a full-scholarship plus stipend at another top 10 I would be making six figures without sacrificing time during my fleeting youth. People need to recognize that there is huge value in that.

People really need to understand what that kind of debt means. After actually going through the job process, I honestly think the Ruby is the best possible outcome in law school admissions and should always be accepted unless you are from a very wealthy family.

[zhenders]

Cross-reference typical federal PI salary with Yale's LRAP. If you spend the first handful of years making under 80k, you're going to be subsidized pretty heavily at Yale, greatly lessening the cost disparity.

[NYstate]

Cross-reference typical federal PI salary with Yale's LRAP. If you spend the first handful of years making under 80k, you're going to be subsidized pretty heavily at Yale, greatly lessening the cost disparity.

I know it's early but I don't understand why counting on Yale LRAP is better than or as good as free plus stipend at Chicago. I started to.compare it to Chicago's LRAP and then remembered that OP won't need it as she won't owe any money.

[20141023]

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[NYstate]

Cross-reference typical federal PI salary with Yale's LRAP. If you spend the first handful of years making under 80k, you're going to be subsidized pretty heavily at Yale, greatly lessening the cost disparity.

I know it's early but I don't understand why counting on Yale LRAP is better than or as good as free plus stipend at Chicago. I started to.compare it to Chicago's LRAP and then remembered that OP won't need it as she won't owe any money.

I think that they are suggesting that Yale on COAP > UChicago on Ruby since "sticker" at Yale isn't really the same sticker that we like to think of at other schools because of how accommodating Yale's LRAP is.

Yale's COAP (a.k.a. "safety net") certainly is pretty awesome, but instead of jumping off of a cliff into a sea of debt in hopes that the net will be wide enough to catch you, it might be better not to take the risk of jumping in the first place.

Either way, people have different tolerances for risk, and I personally don't believe that the OP can go wrong here. Either they get a J.D. from the best law school in the nation, or they get paid $45,000 to get a J.D. from a T6. First-world problems.

With Yale she would pay 25% over $60,000. So about $5,000 if she makes 80,000. On PAYE she would be paying about $527 a month on $100,000 of debt on an 80,000 salary. So she is saving $1300? And after 10 years her debt will be forgiven under PSLF. (If she keeps a qualifying job and makes 120 payments.)

Not sure how much this is saving OP if she qualifies for PAYE. Depends on how much debt she will end up with from Yale I guess.

If OP makes less than 60,000 then she pays 0, so she saves what? Her PAYE payment on $100,000 of debt is $360 a month so about $4,300.

I just think it is important to actually run numbers because every situation is unique. But PAYE and it's predecessor version IBR mean the monthly payments are much lower than the standard repayment plan which was in effect up to a few years ago. If OP Qualifies for PAYE.and PSLF, not sure how much the Yale program benefits her. Will Yale make payments under the standard 10 year repayment program for her?

Edit: it looks like Yale calculates its own amortized loan repayment amount. I don't know how that works with PAYE and PSLF. Yale will also include other debt that the federal government will not include. In theory Yale could be paying for more debt than OP would have to repay under PAYE and PSLF. This is too confusing for me to figure out. Why would Yale pay more than someone is required to pay under PAYE? I suppose the point is to have debt repaid in 10 years outside of any government program.

[dobryden]

Cross-reference typical federal PI salary with Yale's LRAP. If you spend the first handful of years making under 80k, you're going to be subsidized pretty heavily at Yale, greatly lessening the cost disparity.

This is true and extremely helpful. However, I am worried about getting promoted to a higher government salary - and concerned about adding a spousal income to the mix. While Yale's LRAP is incredible if you are single and making a mid-level salary, I worry abouy what happens if my life circumstances chance during the ten years while I am paying off my debt: which they inevitably will.

Unrelated note: thank you all so much for helping. Please keep your advice coming!

[worldtraveler]

Cross-reference typical federal PI salary with Yale's LRAP. If you spend the first handful of years making under 80k, you're going to be subsidized pretty heavily at Yale, greatly lessening the cost disparity.

This is true and extremely helpful. However, I am worried about getting promoted to a higher government salary - and concerned about adding a spousal income to the mix. While Yale's LRAP is incredible if you are single and making a mid-level salary, I worry abouy what happens if my life circumstances chance during the ten years while I am paying off my debt: which they inevitably will.

Unrelated note: thank you all so much for helping. Please keep your advice coming!

Given that this concerns you, I would really say pick Chicago.

I have this issue right now and I had to take out loans to attend any T14, so it's not like I regret my choice because I didn't have other options. But 10 years is a LONG time.

[stillwater]

I am one of the Yale proponents here. I understand the counterargument that debt is not awesome and that the accumulation of debt needs to be kept in mind. However, I believe your career prospects and your ability to shape your career to your own liking are far stronger at Yale. Coupling need aid with improved prospects at doing whatever it is you want in law makes Yale the easy choice (for me). Chicago for as good as it is just isn't in the same league as Yale.